Is using a USB stick a bad idea?

[Coldblackice]

I have an RT-AC68U with Merlin's latest on it. I'd like to install some of the main/popular scripts, like Diversion, amtm, pixelserve, Entware, etc., but apparently I'll need external storage as the router's on board JFFS size isn't enough.

Would there be any issue with using a USB stick? If this would damage or wear out the USB stick quickly? But also if this might cause a performance issue or bottleneck, like if any of these scripts run or access storage actively/continually from the USB stick, thereby making read/write speeds important.

I wouldn't mind if it's just a matter of some slowness at router boot-up when scripts into memory. TIA

 

[Jack Yaz]

A USB stick, drive, whatever is actually a requirement for Entware!

 

[joegreat]

Is using a USB stick a bad idea?

Yes and No!
Yes, it can wear out fast - but only if you write much on the same spot (e.g. with a swap partition - use a swap file which is recreated on each reboot). No problem on read (what is that you need the most).
No, as you have no other good option (beside a SSD, which is also a FLASH as USB drives...) as a spinning hard drive can fail mechanically as fast as a USB-drive when you run it 24x7...

So: Use a good USB-drive (not easy to find out which is good) and do backup of the content to another location: in case it fails you can restore easily...

 

[SomeWhereOverTheRainBow]

Yes and No!
Yes, it can wear out fast - but only if you write much on the same spot (e.g. with a swap partition - use a swap file which is recreated on each reboot). No problem on read (what is the you need the most).
No, as you have no other good option (beside a SSD, which is also a FLASH as USB drives...) as a spinning hard drive can fail mechanically as fast as a USB-drive when you run it 24x7...

So: Use a good USB-drive (not easy to find out which is good) and do backup of the content to another location: in case it fails you can restore easily...

Don't forget to mention, all forms of storage are easily susceptible to corruption. I like how you mention it is good to make a backup.

I have an RT-AC68U with Merlin's latest on it. I'd like to install some of the main/popular scripts, like Diversion, amtm, pixelserve, Entware, etc., but apparently I'll need external storage as the router's on board JFFS size isn't enough.

Would there be any issue with using a USB stick? If this would damage or wear out the USB stick quickly? But also if this might cause a performance issue or bottleneck, like if any of these scripts run or access storage actively/continually from the USB stick, thereby making read/write speeds important.

I wouldn't mind if it's just a matter of some slowness at router boot-up when scripts into memory. TIA

I would advise if all you are using it for is scripts, a flash drive will be sufficient. Do like joe says and backup to a primary storage like a hard drive though.

with all the risk and possibilities of corruption, the flash drive is the easiest and cheapest to replace and doesn't have all the hidden functions a spinning disk does( like builtin hibernation or spin down.)

 

[thelonelycoder]

Would there be any issue with using a USB stick?

No, that's the reason why the USB device capability was added in the first place to routers.
Some say to use an SSD instead of a stick, afraid the stick might wear out too soon.
I have an Iomega Mini 256MB stick from 2004, my first USB stick I ever bought. It's slow but still working fine on one of my test routers and occasionally for other stuff. Don't buy cheap stuff and you get a long lasting product.
In fact, none of the large assortment of USB sticks ever wore out with my usage.

 

[thelonelycoder]

Yes and No!
Yes, it can wear out fast - but only if you write much on the same spot (e.g. with a swap partition - use a swap file which is recreated on each reboot). No problem on read (what is the you need the most).
No, as you have no other good option (beside a SSD, which is also a FLASH as USB drives...) as a spinning hard drive can fail mechanically as fast as a USB-drive when you run it 24x7...

So: Use a good USB-drive (not easy to find out which is good) and do backup of the content to another location: in case it fails you can restore easily...

If I get it right, amtm will have a backup function to a local disk as an option.

 

[Grisu]

If you have an old unused small SSD or can get a cheap one better use this.
Sticks might bring heavy 2.4G interferences in USB3.0 mode and some routers get quite hot and heat the stick to wear out soon. Often seen here in the forum.

 

[miroco]

My intention is not to hijack the thread, but to continue an interesting discussion.

Can someone suggest a partition scheme in percentage and a suitable filesystem for said usb drive? And if/how journaling and swap impacts longevity and to what extent? Or does the benefit of those two features outweigh a reduced longevity?

How about an mSATA SSD drive in a USB enclosure?
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=msata+ss...x=mSATA+ssd+Drive,aps,254&ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_15
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=mSATA+USB+Drive+Enclosure&ref=nb_sb_noss

In that case, maybe an all metal enclosure is preferred based on Grisus observation regarding 2.4 GHz interference in USB 3.0 mode?

How about trim?

 

[Grisu]

same as SSD solution, should work both. I have an old mSATA drive in an enclosure running well on PC.
But you have to test everything on router USB for compatibility (same for sticks)!
Even a stick working well over years refused to run on same router with last Merling, changed back to Johns fork and all ok again (there is a recent thread about that), the firmware is not very well done and some combinations however wont work.

 

[richardeid]

...as a spinning hard drive can fail mechanically as fast as a USB-drive when you run it 24x7...

Google had performed a pretty in-depth study like a decade or more ago about hard drive failure rates in their data centers. I believe they found that usage of a spinning drive didn't correlate at all with whether or not a drive would fail. I tend to still trust their data because to this day it hasn't been disputed as far as I can tell and also their data set is pretty much unmatched. I know something like AWS or Azure datacenters could probably have a higher sample, but I haven't seen any study either have done on failure rates and correlating them with cause. I'm always eager to find out, though, so if anyone has more research I can read it's one of my favorite topics.

Failure Trends in a Large Disk Drive Population

FYI, this links directly to a PDF for those concerned about security. The PDF is hosted by Google, though, so I'm fairly certain it's safe.

Anyway, it was an interesting read if you're into this sort of thing. It gets decently technical but not so much that it's difficult to understand.

 

[Val D.]

a spinning hard drive can fail mechanically as fast as a USB-drive when you run it 24x7

Actually, hard drives always on 24/7 live much longer than ones on a start-stop cycle. I personally had few cases with servers running well for years and once stopped they end up with a drive failure. I'm sure other members here on SNB working in IT have seen the same nice surprise situation.

 

[Makaveli]

Actually, hard drives always on 24/7 live much longer than ones on a start-stop cycle. I personally had few cases with servers running well for years and once stopped they end up with a drive failure. I'm sure other members here on SNB working in IT have seen the same nice surprise situation.

I can agree with this I have a socket 939 AMD opteron still doing HTPC duty. With 4x2tb WD original Green drives and I never shutdown that system. Those drives are still running perfectly right now after all these years.

 

[richardeid]

I can agree with this I have a socket 939 AMD opteron still doing HTPC duty. With 4x2tb WD original Green drives and I never shutdown that system. Those drives are still running perfectly right now after all these years.

We're straying a little from the OP, but...

Those green drives go through many on/off cycles. They spin down at set intervals after no use and I can't remember exactly what that schedule is. I have a couple 2TB Greens running, as coincidence would have it also in a 939 AMD HTPC system, myself and I always have to wait for them to spin up when I want to access the library stored on them. Could probably look it up on the WD site. Anyway, those things go through tons of on/off cycles as far as spin-up/spin-down.

 

[Makaveli]

We're straying a little from the OP, but...

Those green drives go through many on/off cycles. They spin down at set intervals after no use and I can't remember exactly what that schedule is. I have a couple 2TB Greens running, as coincidence would have it also in a 939 AMD HTPC system, myself and I always have to wait for them to spin up when I want to access the library stored on them. Could probably look it up on the WD site. Anyway, those things go through tons of on/off cycles as far as spin-up/spin-down.

The machine has been serving media for years I haven't really noticed many delays but I will look into it.

 

[Val D.]

Those green drives go through many on/off cycles.

wdidle3.exe , Google it.

 

[richardeid]

Yeah, I've used it. Problem is by default the drives spin down after a really short period. I looked it up and here's a quick little write up.

https://blog.fosketts.net/2011/04/27/western-digital-intellipark-feature-design-flaw/

I can't even remember if the drives came with that tool on a utility disk or not. It's freely available anyway, but most people don't know about it and their drives have been running for years this way. And I remember using this on some Raptors years ago so they'd run better in RAID configurations. And I also remember WD changing something about future drives so that this tool would no longer work on them...I think they designed only their Red series of drives to work with it. It's been so long now I can't remember the specifics.

Anwyay, as I recall the current situation is completely hit or miss. I think on much older drives the tool should work fine but anything within the past decade may or may not respond to commands from that tool. It's worth a shot, I suppose. I chose not to use it on the Greens I have because the entire purpose was power saving and I only use them for backups...and I also backup those backups. I'm like a decade into use on those and they're still fine so whatever I guess.

 

[Diamond67]

do backup of the content to another location: in case it fails you can restore easily...

Is there any (easy) way to make backup images of usb sticks (which may contain Diversion, amtm, Skynet, Entware, swap file etc.), or just clone a flash drive to a spare flash drive so that you could swap the drives if the currently active one happens to fail for some reason?

 

[joegreat]

Is there any (easy) way to make backup images of usb sticks (which may contain Diversion, amtm, Skynet, Entware, swap file etc.)...?

Yep, share the USB-drive with Samba in your network and copy/paste the content (scripts are small) to a Windows PC (regular with keeping a history).

As you will edit the router scripts/config anyway from a PC it's the most simple and convenient way of doing backups!

 

[gattaca]

No, that's the reason why the USB device capability was added in the first place to routers.
Some say to use an SSD instead of a stick, afraid the stick might wear out too soon.
I have an Iomega Mini 256MB stick from 2004, my first USB stick I ever bought. It's slow but still working fine on one of my test routers and occasionally for other stuff. Don't buy cheap stuff and you get a long lasting product.
In fact, none of the large assortment of USB sticks ever wore out with my usage.

^^^ There's a thread showing the major performance differences which have been measured on some common USB sticks vs. even 5 year old SSDs in USB to SSD cases (UGREEN) which I posted. The performance differences are remarkable. This slow I/O performance will accumulate and ripple thru everything the router does when it is "waiting on I/O" just like any larger machine.

What works for my setup is I used an 80GB Intel SSD in a solid UGREEN case and never looked back.

If you use USB, then buy a higher quality, well-known, branded unit. Just keep in mind, as a computer guy, USB NAND is some of the lowest quality NAND being made...it's almost like bottom-binned materials. YMMV.

Starting off, if you just want to play to be sure, by all means, use USB - it is an easy launch. For me, at this point, I have so much time invested in our wonderful setup of Merlin+Diversion+AMTM+Pixelserv + + + that I cannot afford to be hounded by a $5 USB stick. The family would be howling! So for me, cutting to the chase, I wanted better than USB performance, plus stability. Consider whether your time is worth more than the USB stick. If so, then set the bar a bit higher. I happened to have a small 80GB Intel SSD laying around so I just needed to add the UGREEN USB to SATA case.

As my dad always said, "Son, you get what you pay for....!" Peace.

 

[Val D.]

As my dad always said, "Son, you get what you pay for....!" Peace.

This advice was valid in the past. Now we get crap even if we pay more.