A paradox

[palmada]

Hello all.

I have a question, if it's not much of a bother: if I have my computer connected (apparently) why can't I access anything on the network, internet or even the router page? Windows says "I'm connected!" but it's a damn, filthy lie.

I have a new Belkin N1 Vision, on channel 1 (I've looked, it would appear to be the only network on channel 1 around). It has WPA2 on and it broadcasts an SSID. I've disabled the WPA2 and even the firewall to no avail.

It doesn't appear to be a problem with DHCP, all computers have an auto-assigned IP, I can even get an IP I designate manually. I've even assigned my DNS's manually (doesn't work). When I use a cable to check the DHCP list, everything looks just dandy. The router is said to be plagued by issues fixed with a pre-release firmware, that currently sits on the flash on my router. Needless to say, I can tell no difference to the old firmware.

The network currently boasts 2 desktops (one b, one n) and 2 laptops (both g). The desktop that's most problematic has a Conceptronic PCI n card (with the fancy pantsy 3 antennae) that's on the underside of a desk. It's on the second floor (router is on the first floor) and my house certainly has lot's of concrete walls, but the laptops connect. My laptop (what I'm on now) is sitting right next to the n computer and has a great connection almost always, so it wouldn't be a reception issue. Although we use a cordless phone, it's on a different room of the house than the n computer. The microwave is far away as well. The b desktop that also has issues, connects only partially more often and sits right next to the cordless phone.

The connection itself varies greatly. In the brief moments I've connected, I have great speeds for a few seconds, then it goes downhill. Most of the time, it connects and even though it reports a connection (and the windows reported speed varies over time) I can't actually access anything.

Rebooting router and computers has only worked once out of 20 tries.

I've bought the router because my old ASUS router was very unstable. I KNEW I had connection issues with the that one because windows said as much, and at least all computers on the first floor connected. But I read reviews of this N1 Vision router that sounded promising (including the one on SNB) and for a few days if worked fine. But I hate the fact that with this router, Windows is actually lying to me.

I can't understand the problem here... It would appear to be a terrible hardware issue on the router's side. At this point, I'm writing this mostly to vent, since I'm set on returning the router and buying a solid g router (make the whole house a g network). However, if anyone on this forum has some insight, it would be deeply, deeply appreciated.

 

[thiggins]

I have a question, if it's not much of a bother: if I have my computer connected (apparently) why can't I access anything on the network, internet or even the router page? Windows says "I'm connected!" but it's a damn, filthy lie.

Windows reports whatever status the network adapter provides. And generally, network adapters will report that they are connected to a wireless LAN as long as they have any sort of signal.

So "Connected" is one piece of information. What you really need to know is what the link rate is. That information is the "speed" reported in the Local Area Connection Status for the adapter. What is your problem system reporting? My guess is that it is reporting a low rate (single digit Mbps) and/or the rate is changing...a lot. Low and varying link rate means a weak and unstable signal, which will produce performance exactly like you are describing.

The network currently boasts 2 desktops (one b, one n) and 2 laptops (both g).The desktop that's most problematic has a Conceptronic PCI n card (with the fancy pantsy 3 antennae) that's on the underside of a desk. It's on the second floor (router is on the first floor) and my house certainly has lot's of concrete walls, but the laptops connect. My laptop (what I'm on now) is sitting right next to the n computer and has a great connection almost always, so it wouldn't be a reception issue. Although we use a cordless phone, it's on a different room of the house than the n computer. The microwave is far away as well. The b desktop that also has issues, connects only partially more often and sits right next to the cordless phone.

The home construction and adapter type and location sound like your main problem. Concrete will knock signal level down very quickly. Locating antennas down low and near a wall will also knock down signal level. You would probably be better off with a plain 11g USB adapter that is on a cable and that can be positioned on the desktop or moved around to optimize signal level.

Just because the microwave and cordless phone are not in the same room doesn't mean that they can't affect performance. Sitting right next to a client (as your b desktop does) will affect performance.

To sum up, it sounds like you are blaming your router for things that have nothing to do with it.

 

[palmada]

Low and varying link rate means a weak and unstable signal, which will produce performance exactly like you are describing.

It varies between 13.5mbps and 103mbps, from one second to the next.

You are probably correct. It's just frustrating that the problems I had with the old router merely got exarcebated. I've tried to move the computer and router before, but the house doesn't collaborate (as for the computer with the phone, it should be noted this is the first time it's ever had problems with connections. This is what led me to blame the router). I bought the new router specifically to improve range and stability (as advertised) and got a worse deal. I've actually reset the old router and it's working ok-ish, as it was before.

It's just so incredibly frustrating to spend so much money to get this operating nicely and in the end, it's almost for nothing. I'll try to find a more "maleable" adapter, but moving the router is out of the question due to the modem and the fact it's almost impossible to move the cableage around.

Thanks very much for the reply; I admit I primarily needed to vent.

EDIT: OK, I have to say I'm not entirely convinced. I've sat with the laptop in front of the router and couldn't get a signal for the life of me. Again, tried rebooting everything, to no avail. The laptop connects sometimes, as I've said before, but other times it just doesn't collaborate. This went for a few hours.

 

[thiggins]

Thanks very much for the reply; I admit I primarily needed to vent.

EDIT: OK, I have to say I'm not entirely convinced. I've sat with the laptop in front of the router and couldn't get a signal for the life of me. Again, tried rebooting everything, to no avail. The laptop connects sometimes, as I've said before, but other times it just doesn't collaborate.

That's ok. We all need to vent at some time or other.

It's possible that you have a bad router. But I have seen signal overload problems with draft 11n products. I always keep router and client separated by 6-10 feet. Also, before you RMA or pitch it into the trash, try the following wireless settings if you already haven't:
- Bandwidth: 20 MHz only
- Wireless Mode: 11b+g

You might also want to download NetStumbler onto your laptop(s). It will give you a nice plot of signal level over time, so you can see if the router really is as flaky as you think it is.

 

[palmada]

I've tried 20mhz only and the N1 doesn't have a b/g only option. I've even tried to put it in AP mode (but then more problems ocurred with my network settings =P). I'm not sure, the router worked so great for a few days... I'll look into possible sources of disturbance, but I'm not sure what that could possibly be.

EDIT: I'll try netstumbler when I get access to the Vista laptop; this one has Kubuntu and kismet didn't like it for some reason.

 

[thiggins]

I've tried 20mhz only and the N1 doesn't have a b/g only option. I've even tried to put it in AP mode (but then more problems ocurred with my network settings =P). I'm not sure, the router worked so great for a few days... I'll look into possible sources of disturbance, but I'm not sure what that could possibly be.

EDIT: I'll try netstumbler when I get access to the Vista laptop; this one has Kubuntu and kismet didn't like it for some reason.

I thought it did. If not that mode, then try a mode that doesn't include N. That should control the ranging algorithms and perhaps settle it down a bit. The draft 11n clients will be ok, they'll just limit themselves to 11g rates.

AP mode won't help. Just complicates your setup, as you found, I guess.

I don't think NetStumbler works with Vista, but you can give it a shot. The hassle is always finding a wireless adapter that works.

If there is another network(s) causing problems, NetStumbler will find it.

 

[palmada]

Unfortunately there's only the mixed b/g/n mode, no other option. Not very creative, Belkin.

I'll try and find a way to try netstumbler (well, Wine doesn't work).

 

[thiggins]

Unfortunately there's only the mixed b/g/n mode,

Crap. You're right. That isn't very helpful.

I was also thinking your problems could be thermally related.
If you unplug the router for awhile (15 mins), do you get the problems right away. Or does it take awhile?

 

[palmada]

When I get the opportunity I'll try, but I find it unlikely. It's on a well ventilated space, and if it was thermal, I didn't feel any heat on the unit when rebooting/moving it.

As for the previous experiments, the problem usually appeared immediatly after rebooting (this router takes a long time to reboot by the way, some 20 seconds).

 

[thiggins]

Rebooting doesn't let the router cool down (if there is a thermal problem). You have to unplug it and let it sit.

 

[palmada]

Well, the router has been off for a whole day. I had turned on the the old ASUS one so the other computers could regain internet access.

I turned the Belkin on, but no improvement. I've installed netstumbler on the far away desktop and it sensed both the ASUS and Belkin router on channel 1: Oops, forgot to turn the old one off. Turning off the ASUS didn't do anything. The whole time I had the Belkin on, I couldn't connect with the laptop, so the problems persist.

I've attached the networkstumbler file if you're curious. The "Casa" STA is the Belkin router. It would appear the Belkin has worse signal/noise ration than the ASUS, but not by much.

 

[thiggins]

The plots show that "Casa" (Bekin) has a stronger signal than the Asus (ignore the "signal/noise" label..what you are seeing is RSSI converted to a signal level).
But it also looks like the Belkin transmit signal has a lot of variation. But that could be a by-product of draft 11n.

At any rate, Netstumbler doesn't show any other networks. But it don't pick up things like microwave ovens, cordless phones, etc.

Time to return/sell the Belkin.

 

[palmada]

:\ I won't sell it, wouldn't cause this much trouble to someone else. I'm still within my right to return it.

Thanks for all the help though.