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AC1900 not fast?

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ehume

Occasional Visitor
When I had an ASUS RT-AC68U for a router and an ASUS PCE-AC68 for a basement adapter, I was able to get very fast connections. I had to send the RT-AC68U back because it produced a lousy IEEE 802.11n network experience for my kids. The PCE-AC68 I killed when I accidentally cross-touched a 12v and a 5v line. I was able to salvage the meter-long antenna+cable to use on a Rosewill RNX-N150PC Wireless Adapter (PCI, not PDIE) -- IEEE 802.11b/g/n listed as going up to 150Mbps.

The meter long cable got the antenna out of a radio shadow, so the Rosewill produced a pretty good throughput.

Then I got a Nighthawk R7000 router. This has a good enough 802.11n network so my kids are happy. But for speed to the basement I had to wait.

I now have a Devil's Canyon rig in the basement with lots of PCIE slots, so I got a new PCE-AC68. Alas, even with its long cable, the Rosewill is faster! I don't seem to be getting AC1900 from my AC1900-capable router to my AC1900-capable adapter. The ASUS adapter does not even show the throughput speeds. So the ASUS adapter is retired for now.

Question: how do I make the two devices, from different brands -- connect up to send and receive AC1900?
 
That is absolute max theoretical in a sterile lab. Highest I've gotten on even AC1200 class was 40Mbytes/sec or 320Mbits/sec and that was with An Amped ACA1 USB WLAN adapter and an Aruba Networks IAP-225 enterprise grade Access Point. Tested 4 802.11ac APs so far and testing another.
 
That is absolute max theoretical in a sterile lab. Highest I've gotten on even AC1200 class was 40Mbytes/sec or 320Mbits/sec and that was with An Amped ACA1 USB WLAN adapter and an Aruba Networks IAP-225 enterprise grade Access Point. Tested 4 802.11ac APs so far and testing another.

Pretty slow IMO for AC1200 class. Use Intel 7260 and get 60 MB/s speed (500 Mbps).
 
Pretty slow IMO for AC1200 class. Use Intel 7260 and get 60 MB/s speed (500 Mbps).

Well, with the right base station, but yes. I get around 62MB/sec absolute greatest and max, which is an 867Mbps link rate.

Typical is a little more in the low 50MB/sec range line of sight to my router.

Stick some stuff in the way and it'll get a lot slower. One floor up, through 2 walls and maybe 30ft horizontal I can get around 16-20MB/sec on the 5GHz band (which is still a little faster than 2.4GHz 40MHz, which is more around 14-16MB/sec there).

How is everything positioned. Since the PCI-e adapter has 3 antennas and you mentioned a radio shadow...what is going on with that? 5GHz suffers much more attenuation than 2.4GHz, so if something thick is in the way, a couple of feet of repositioning might go a long ways towards increasing speed.
 
But I know I was getting about 450 with the ASUS router + adapter. Now with the Nighthawk R7000 I'm getting 70% signal on my Rosewill 11n. The R7000 and an identical ASUS adapter (I bought a second) can't even keep up with the Rosewill.
 
Firmware Update!

I am running Windows 8.1 in my basement.

There was a firmware update for the PCE-AC68 adapter. Now I am getting 351 Mbps on the 5GHz network according to the status mode of the ASUS software. Before the update it would not show me the network speed.

According to the same software, I am getting 160-190 Mbps on the 2.4GHz network. So the firmware update fixed my problems.

Now all I need to know is how I can tell what is 11n, and what is 11ac. Both types of net are supposed to use both the 2.4GHz and the 5GHz bands. But both the router and the adapter give me a choice of bands, not network protocols. How can I tell?
 
First, Windows connection properties should report the adapter link rate. Also make sure you have the latest ASUS driver.

AC1900 produces the same 1300 Mbps 5 GHz maximum link rate as AC1750 class. 600 Mbps maximum 2.4 GHz link rate requires 40 MHz bandwidth. With 20 MHz b/w, max link rate is 289 Mbps, only a 33% gain from the 216 Mbps max link rate from standard 3x3 11n.

My experience is that AC1900 routers, in many cases do not achieve higher 2.4 GHz throughput than AC1750. Check the charts and see for yourself (use the Maximum selector)
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/lanwan/router-charts/bar/111-2_4-ghz-dn-c?see=MAX
 
First, Windows connection properties should report the adapter link rate. Also make sure you have the latest ASUS driver.

AC1900 produces the same 1300 Mbps 5 GHz maximum link rate as AC1750 class. 600 Mbps maximum 2.4 GHz link rate requires 40 MHz bandwidth. With 20 MHz b/w, max link rate is 289 Mbps, only a 33% gain from the 216 Mbps max link rate from standard 3x3 11n.

My experience is that AC1900 routers, in many cases do not achieve higher 2.4 GHz throughput than AC1750. Check the charts and see for yourself (use the Maximum selector)
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/lanwan/router-charts/bar/111-2_4-ghz-dn-c?see=MAX

It makes sense. The cases where 256QAM for 2.4GHz or 5GHz seems uncommon from my limited experience. Well, I can't speak to 2.4GHz as I don't have 256QAM 2.4GHz client/base station to test with.

At any rate, testing with 5GHz with my AC1750 router and AC867 (I refuse to call a NON-concurrent dual band client AC1200) Intel 7260ac I am seeing numbers that are only a tiny bit above what you'd expect if you carried over 5GHz 40MHz 11n (IE 64QAM) to 80MHz width.

5GHz 40MHz, about 28MB/sec, absolute max average transfer I have seen with 5GHz 80MHz (obviously 11ac/256QAM has to be enabled for that), has been 62MB/sec, the extra channel width could possibly account for that as 80MHz channels should support about 110% of the bandwidth of 40MHz channels (or about 62MB/sec). Yes, the link rate claims 867Mbps, but I question if it is actively using the 256QAM encoding (or if it is, if there is some extra packet loss or something, taking throughput back down).

So I wonder what might be "up" with this. I don't think my situation is entirely unique. Based on AC1900 product testing, on 2.4GHz, the extra character encoding doesn't really seem to be doing much of anything, and in 5GHz 80MHz testing, the results generally don't seem to be much better than the ~110% or so throughput increase that going from 40MHz to 80MHz channel widths with the same 64QAM encoding should result in.

I mean, I won't look a gift horse in the mouth, more than doubled bandwidth with having twice the channel width is nice, but SOMETHING seems to be holding 256QAM back from showing real benefits for both 2.4GHz and 5GHz. I wonder if it is an issue of not having good enough amplifiers or something like that...which I wouldn't be suprised if that were the case. I wonder if once 11ac becomes more mature if both client and router manufacturers actually start focusing on differentiating and improving their existing products, if we might see products start really being able to maximize 11ac.

I at least THINK that happened with 11n (and even transitioning in to 11ac continuing).

Not too many years ago my Netgear 3500L (about 6-7 years old) could hit around 21MB/sec absolute max on 2.4GHz 40MHz (to an Intel 7260ac). Same client, same location, same tests and my TP-Link WDR3600 N600 2-3 year old router can hit 24MB/sec 2.4GHz 40MHz. With my AC1750 router (still 300Mbps connection speed) on 2.4GHz 40MHz it can hit 28MB/sec 2.4GHz 40MHz. Exact same client, exact same tests and locations, etc.

I wonder if we'll see a similar evolution among 11ac products now, were every new generation we see the products manage to eek a bit more out of what is theoretically possible. Right now, I see around 76% yield for 2.4GHz 40MHz 11n (300Mbps), which is about the max possible once FECC is taken in to account. For 5GHz 80MHz 11ac however, the max I see is around 57% yield, and the absolute max should actually be higher, as 11ac (last I checked) uses low density parity checking for FECC, which I think actually results in 11ac having an absolute max, by theory, PAYLOAD rate of about 83% or so (I think standard 11n FECC is ~24% overhead, where as LDPC FECC of 11ac, and optional for 11n...but not implemented AFAIK except maybe with 11ac compatible 2.4GHz client/routers, is around 15-17% overhead).

Still pretty far from those figures, but hopefully as chipsets and radios iterate, they'll manage to improve upon those figures.
 
Well, at first I thought that using a Netgear Router and an ASUS adapter caused a slowdown. But I just now I checked the Status panel in the adapter client; it's 468 Mbps. I looked in at the Windows Network; 468 Mbps.

This is about the same as previously, when I had an ASUS router and adapter. Overall, I'd say it's pretty good for a basement rig where the 5GHz signal has to pass through a floor.

I'm still wondering how to get the 2.4GHz and 5GHz radios in the router to talk to my adapter over both bands simultaneously. Given that my bandwidth on a 150 Mbps 11n adapter runs 160-180 Mbps in real life, I have to believe that if I had both bands running simultaneously I could hit 600-700 Mbps down here.
 
Hi,
It all depends on good signal strength at the device end. If not -N may be better choice. Personally I'd rather have stable -N mode than flaky -AC mode.
 
I'm still wondering how to get the 2.4GHz and 5GHz radios in the router to talk to my adapter over both bands simultaneously. Given that my bandwidth on a 150 Mbps 11n adapter runs 160-180 Mbps in real life, I have to believe that if I had both bands running simultaneously I could hit 600-700 Mbps down here.
This is not possible. Adapters have a single dual-band radio. Even if an adapter had two radios, band bonding is not implemented in 802.11
 
This is not possible. Adapters have a single dual-band radio. Even if an adapter had two radios, band bonding is not implemented in 802.11

Correct.

Also there is no way the client can be 150Mbps in 2.4GHz and achieve an actual throughput of 160-180Mbps. It would have to be 300Mbps.

The absolute maximum payload of 802.11n 150Mbps is about 76% of that, or about 114Mbps (forward error correct eats up about 24%), assuming a "perfect" connection with no dropped packets.

One note though, 802.11 doesn't have band bonding (yet anyway), but there isn't anything to say that custom firmware and drivers couldn't possibly support band bonding. At least if you have concurrent dual band ability, there is nothing to say you couldn't connect the same bands simultaneously to the same client if both supported it in firmware.

It is NOT part of any current 802.11 specification though.
 
Correct.

Also there is no way the client can be 150Mbps in 2.4GHz and achieve an actual throughput of 160-180Mbps. It would have to be 300Mbps.

The absolute maximum payload of 802.11n 150Mbps is about 76% of that, or about 114Mbps (forward error correct eats up about 24%), assuming a "perfect" connection with no dropped packets.

One note though, 802.11 doesn't have band bonding (yet anyway), but there isn't anything to say that custom firmware and drivers couldn't possibly support band bonding. At least if you have concurrent dual band ability, there is nothing to say you couldn't connect the same bands simultaneously to the same client if both supported it in firmware.

It is NOT part of any current 802.11 specification though.

Larger channel width seems to be the way things are going, rather than more complicated band bonding. We'll be seeing 160 MHz in the near future once devices implement more features from the 802.11ac specifications.

Also, I believe Quantenna already announced a 8x8 chipset.
 
This is not possible. Adapters have a single dual-band radio. Even if an adapter had two radios, band bonding is not implemented in 802.11

The tech support at Netgear just informed me that the router broadcasts on both bands simultaneously. Both ASUS and Negear advertise their routers as having an 11ac bandwidth of 1900Mbps: 600 Mbps (on the 2.4GHz band) + 1300 Mbps (5 GHz band). So, that's not band bonding. So what is it called?

(I was hoping to get about 1/3 of 1900 Mbps down in my basement.)
 
Correct.

Also there is no way the client can be 150Mbps in 2.4GHz and achieve an actual throughput of 160-180Mbps. It would have to be 300Mbps.

Interesting. So they were lying about the specs, selling me a 300 Mbps part as if it were a 150 Mbps part -- probably to sell me the cheap item without losing the sale.

Since the "150" Mbps client is in the basement, having it get 160-180 Mbps really does make sense if it is a 300 Mbps client in disguise.

Thank you. That info really clears up all of the mystery.

BTW -- the vendor was Rosewill. I have had really good experiences with their case fans, SATA cables and a power strip. I read good reviews about their cases and their PSU's -- at least some of them. This is another example of good stuff from them.
 
The tech support at Netgear just informed me that the router broadcasts on both bands simultaneously. Both ASUS and Negear advertise their routers as having an 11ac bandwidth of 1900Mbps: 600 Mbps (on the 2.4GHz band) + 1300 Mbps (5 GHz band). So, that's not band bonding. So what is it called?

(I was hoping to get about 1/3 of 1900 Mbps down in my basement.)

He's talking about the router. The router can transmit on both bands at the same time. It's your clients that cannot connect to both bands at the same time - each client can only connect to one band at a time.

The 11ac bandwitth is only 1300 Mbps. The 600 Mbps is for the 2.4 GHz band, which is only 802.11n.
 
He's talking about the router. The router can transmit on both bands at the same time. It's your clients that cannot connect to both bands at the same time - each client can only connect to one band at a time.

The 11ac bandwitth is only 1300 Mbps. The 600 Mbps is for the 2.4 GHz band, which is only 802.11n.

But I have an "ASUS PCE-AC68 Dual-band Wireless-AC1900 Adapter IEEE 802.11ac, IEEE 802.11a/b/g/n PCI Express Up to 600 and 1300Mbps Wireless Data Rates" (this was copied directly from the Newegg page).

OTOH, on the ASUS product page, it says, "5th generation 802.11ac chipset gives you dual-band,2.4GHz/5GHz for up to super-fast 1.30Gbps"

So I guess you're right. It's only up to 1300 Mbps. I could have sworn I read at the time of its release that it would go up to 1900 Mbps. Ah, well.
 
The tech support at Netgear just informed me that the router broadcasts on both bands simultaneously. Both ASUS and Negear advertise their routers as having an 11ac bandwidth of 1900Mbps: 600 Mbps (on the 2.4GHz band) + 1300 Mbps (5 GHz band). So, that's not band bonding. So what is it called?
That is called creative marketing.

This article explains how to determine the maximum link rate of any combination of router and client. http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-basics/32175-how-fast-can-your-wi-fi-go

You then need to REDUCE the link rate numbers by 50 to 60% to get an idea of realistic maximum usable throughput. Distance (signal level) then reduces usable bandwidth very quickly as signal level drops, especially in 5 GHz.
 
Larger channel width seems to be the way things are going, rather than more complicated band bonding. We'll be seeing 160 MHz in the near future once devices implement more features from the 802.11ac specifications.

Also, I believe Quantenna already announced a 8x8 chipset.

I just really hope we also see wide spread DFS support (maybe mandatory for some 11ac future revision). MU:MIMO will obviously help a lot, but it would be nice to have APs that don't overlap their channels.

I get the feeling that, at least for people who aren't in a "single AP for an entire residence" situation (which I feel like is pushing towards the minority instead of being the norm as time goes on and more people get faster connections and realize the limitations of a single router/AP for their entire house), they just might see better performance with 80MHz channel widths for two APs with no overlap than 160MHz channel widths on two APs with everything overlapping, at least in multidevice situations.
 

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