Building outdoor wifi net

[robgendreau]

I need to build a small net for mobile outdoor use. I’m a noob so bear with me.

The internet source, when we have one, is gonna be wifi from a public source, like a campground. Or maybe something further away, depending on the antenna's reach.

The internet data would then have to be redistributed via wifi to clients like phones and computers. And this WLAN would also have to work when there is NO internet connection (so simply bridging or repeating the internet/LAN source isn't sufficient in all situations).

It would seem this is analogous to the WISP situation, like in some places where the internet is provided to a home and the box that receives the WAN connection has a router function that redistributes that via wifi and/or ethernet, just like the boxes that Comcast or ATT provides, the difference being the WAN connection is wifi, not ethernet, ADSL, etc.

My existing routers, like my Airport Express, won't do this. They can act in "client mode," but that only means they act as a wifi client only and can't at the same time act as a router to redistribute wifi (again, not interested in bridging or repeating).

I've been seeing some outdoor WISP router/access points/WISP CPEs (they don't seem to all use the same nomenclature) that seem to be able to do this, to receive internet via a high gain antenna and then act in "AP client router mode" (eg TP-Link TL-WA5210G) or "client router mode" (Engenius; they say "AP client mode" is for a wired WAN connection). Advantages of these are that they include high-gain antennas, are build for outdoors (hence no long cable run), and can work with PPOe if necessary. There's also the small little Alfa R36, to which you can attach a AWUS036NHR USB wifi adapter, which is a 2W dongle that can also use a high-gain antenna, and it can act to receive say public wifi and then redistribute it via its routing function to wifi clients.

Before I plunk $$ on them, though, I wanna make sure I'm on the right track. In the documentation it seems that there is a standard term for a router that receives a broadband internet feed via wifi and then creates its own network with its own wifi clients; "access point" meant to me simply a connection to an existing network without doing anything but passing on the data. Or am I confused?

And any recommendations for gear would be appreciated.

 

[Fraoch]

I don't know too much about WISPs so this could be inaccurate but I believe they don't use standard wifi - they use proprietary, licensed bands and require equipment that will specifically work with their frequencies. I'm not sure of this though and it may vary by WISP. But you might not want to depend on buying any equipment and having it work with any wifi you might receive.

However one thing you may want to consider is - do you have LTE in the area? If so you may want to go with a router that can handle an LTE USB adapter - some of the high end ASUS routers do this as an emergency failover but CradlePoint routers do this full-time. An LTE adapter plus a contract may cost less than a WISP. Speeds will probably be comparable or maybe even greater.

 

[robgendreau]

Not all WISPs are proprietary; I'm thinking of the examples I noted. And the wifi is like that at public campgrounds, some cities, commercial sites, airports. Some may have terms that require you don't share, but the wifi isn't encoded or anything. And since you can't access the root wifi's settings, some things aren't possible. There's also a router that uses this "wifi as wan" feature with an ability to enter a password, should the wifi provider prompt for it.

There are also devices like the pepwave surf that don't route, but will work with other routers to provide this capacity. Might be a bit faster since you'd have two radios, one in the pepwave and one in whatever router you were using.

As I said, it's for mobile use in situations where we can't get cellular coverage. Or where maybe one person gets it and is willing to share, but the others don't get receptions (ie ATT users . And some of the wifi is "free" at many places (marinas, campgrounds, etc).

 

[Nerre]

I'd say the easiest, and also probably most flexible, solution is to have several boxes.

Use one router as your main router for the "local" WLAN. To that you might add a few repeaters, extenders or additional wired access points, depending on what area you need to cover.

Then to the WAN side of this main router you can connect:

1. A cable to a wired internet connection
2. A cable to another router in client mode
3. A USB 3G/4G modem (ok, it's not connected to the WAN port but rather the USB port)

If you really really want everything in one box you will need a router with dual radios that can be separately configured.

 

[robgendreau]

I'd say the easiest, and also probably most flexible, solution is to have several boxes.

Use one router as your main router for the "local" WLAN. To that you might add a few repeaters, extenders or additional wired access points, depending on what area you need to cover.

Then to the WAN side of this main router you can connect:

1. A cable to a wired internet connection
2. A cable to another router in client mode
3. A USB 3G/4G modem (ok, it's not connected to the WAN port but rather the USB port)

If you really really want everything in one box you will need a router with dual radios that can be separately configured.

Looks like maybe two is better. The Ubiquiti Bullet is pretty popular, and a nice designed: basically just an inline piece between antenna and ethernet cable, which also provides power. Waterproof. Then have it go to a wifi router. The Alfa set up also makes sense; a USB 2W dongle with its own antenna attached via USB to a router that provides the wifi LAN. Its advantage is that it's smaller, although running long USB or coax for the antenna is more expensive than long ethernet for the Bullet.

 

[2kfire]

To add to Nerre's list, 4. Bridge

I know you said you're not interested in bridging or repeating, can you tell us why? Repeating I understand, it's slow, won't give you your own LAN, poor range, etc etc...

A bridge on the other hand, by connecting a bridge to the WAN port of your existing router you would get exactly what you're looking for. You could use an outdoor one with external dish or YAGI antenna(e), which would give you excellent range to your source! Then, your current airport could handle your LAN/WLAN.

 

[robgendreau]

Bridging would work if the second downstream device were connected by ethernet; I think when I was initially looking at this I thought it could go wifi to wifi, which would cut the bandwidth.

And I still don't know which device should be the router, optimally. If I had a NanoStation getting the wifi, then attached via ethernet to say a Bullet, which should route? I guess I assumed the Nano, and the Bullet as an AP. But that was partly because if only I was present then I could use just the Nano and a connection to my laptop without having to change any settings.

Or maybe I'm all wrong....

Rob

 

[Daybreak]

Howdy,
You need to think of what you want to do as 2 separate things. You will want your own router. (ie; RT-N66U) You would then want a (known as a CPE device) A type of access point to suck in that wifi signal.

Here is a possible problem with what you wanting to do. Who exactly are you going to be piggy-backing on? They might lock you out if they see to much bandwidth usage and such.

Anyway, access points come in many flavors. You might want to use something like inSSIDer to scan the airwaves to get an idea on what channel and frequency they are using.
A access point such as the enGenius ENH210EXT (2.4Ghz) with a type of external antennae of your choosing. Yagi, grid parabolic, Omni.
A unit like that or any other manufacturer which is POE and waterproof to handle outdoor use. A lot here will depend on the distance and signal they are sending out. If they are using a simple 2.4Ghz at 11mbps (b channel) then you would go with the fastest for that style, say a ENH200EXT.
Look over your mounting locations as well. You will want the most direct line of sight, without any obstructions.

 

[robgendreau]

Howdy,
You need to think of what you want to do as 2 separate things. You will want your own router. (ie; RT-N66U) You would then want a (known as a CPE device) A type of access point to suck in that wifi signal.

Here is a possible problem with what you wanting to do. Who exactly are you going to be piggy-backing on? They might lock you out if they see to much bandwidth usage and such.

Anyway, access points come in many flavors. You might want to use something like inSSIDer to scan the airwaves to get an idea on what channel and frequency they are using.
A access point such as the enGenius ENH210EXT (2.4Ghz) with a type of external antennae of your choosing. Yagi, grid parabolic, Omni.
A unit like that or any other manufacturer which is POE and waterproof to handle outdoor use. A lot here will depend on the distance and signal they are sending out. If they are using a simple 2.4Ghz at 11mbps (b channel) then you would go with the fastest for that style, say a ENH200EXT.
Look over your mounting locations as well. You will want the most direct line of sight, without any obstructions.

Thanks; I think I'm on that track, and looking at a bunch of the Ubiquiti equipment (they seem to have really nice tech support, so I'm leaning their way although there are other vendors, like EnGenius). The software has a scanning function built-in so that you can pick an open, strong signal.

The host AP (not sure if that's a technical way to describe it) we'd use is used to people mobbing it. Again, think "free wifi" in a public place. True, that might mean we're getting it at the far end of the campground when they had planned that only two people right next to their antenna would use it. But that's what we're paying for. And I would think some basic etiquette would apply; I wouldn't overuse somebody's resources whether it be wifi, water, etc.

 

[stevech]

I need to build a small net for mobile outdoor use. I’m a noob so bear with me.

The internet source, when we have one, is gonna be wifi from a public source, like a campground. Or maybe something further away, depending on the antenna's reach.

The internet data would then have to be redistributed via wifi to clients like phones and computers. And this WLAN would also have to work when there is NO internet connection (so simply bridging or repeating the internet/LAN source isn't sufficient in all situations).

It would seem this is analogous to the WISP situation, like in some places where the internet is provided to a home and the box that receives the WAN connection has a router function that redistributes that via wifi and/or ethernet, just like the boxes that Comcast or ATT provides, the difference being the WAN connection is wifi, not ethernet, ADSL, etc.

My existing routers, like my Airport Express, won't do this. They can act in "client mode," but that only means they act as a wifi client only and can't at the same time act as a router to redistribute wifi (again, not interested in bridging or repeating).

I've been seeing some outdoor WISP router/access points/WISP CPEs (they don't seem to all use the same nomenclature) that seem to be able to do this, to receive internet via a high gain antenna and then act in "AP client router mode" (eg TP-Link TL-WA5210G) or "client router mode" (Engenius; they say "AP client mode" is for a wired WAN connection). Advantages of these are that they include high-gain antennas, are build for outdoors (hence no long cable run), and can work with PPOe if necessary. There's also the small little Alfa R36, to which you can attach a AWUS036NHR USB wifi adapter, which is a 2W dongle that can also use a high-gain antenna, and it can act to receive say public wifi and then redistribute it via its routing function to wifi clients.

Before I plunk $$ on them, though, I wanna make sure I'm on the right track. In the documentation it seems that there is a standard term for a router that receives a broadband internet feed via wifi and then creates its own network with its own wifi clients; "access point" meant to me simply a connection to an existing network without doing anything but passing on the data. Or am I confused?

And any recommendations for gear would be appreciated.

what's the size of the area to be covered, and characteristics? If like an RV park, sometimes a mesh network is needed. Like Tropos or a few others.

 

[robgendreau]

It would vary in size a lot. It's for mobile, ad hoc use.

 

[stevech]

Can you bound the problem?