Flexible Simultaneous Dual Band Alternative?

[XprofQ]

Background:

I'm currently running only G clients using the formerly famous, but now outdated, Belkin Pre-N router (which by the way has been rock solid). I plan to upgrade my laptop in the very near future, so I will be adding my first N client. I also have a new HP MediaSmart Home Server sitting in a box awaiting a new router with a gigabit connection.

At this time, I can't think of any need for a dual band wireless network in my home/home office environment, but I would like to have the flexibility to add 5ghz if needed, especially considering that the HP MediaSmart may end up being used as more than just a file server for office data.

Problem:

I will be forced to operate in a mixed mode environment. I can't eliminate my old G clients entirely because it would not be cost effective (i.e. I have a wireless G printserver the supports two printers, another printer w/ built-in G wifi, and a few older corporate computers with built-in G wifi, etc.). My understanding is that I will generally suffer a huge performance hit by running G and N wifi at the same time. While this probably won't affect low bandwidth activities like websurfing, it may be problematic for transferring larger files to the HP MediaSmart Home Server.

Solution:

I've read a few places where it was recommended that your old G router be kept and run side-by-side with a new N router (one of the two routers would be set up as an access point, while the other would be the router). This makes sense, but I have a couple of reasons for upgrading my entire setup and starting from scratch.

Alternative Solution:

I was wondering what your input would be regarding the following setup:

*Netgear WNR3500 set up as a the primary router and access point for 2.4ghz N only (w/ gigabit connection to the HP MediaSmart).

*Netgear WNR2000 set up as an inexpensive access point for G only.

*Netgear WNHDE111 set up as an access point for 5ghz N (in the future to add dual band capabilities)

I fully realize that this is an over-complicated way of getting a dual band setup compared to all-in-one solutions like the Linksys WRT600N or WRT610N and that this is not the most cost-effective solution overall. But might it be the best? I have the space and budget to make the Netgear setup work.

While it would be nice to have a compact solution like Linksys offers, wouldn't it be better to have separate pieces of hardware, each dedicated to their own purpose, each with their own antennas and each separated spatially? I can't help but feel that packing so much into a compact router chassis, as Linksys does, must have performance drawbacks. I've read good reviews about the Linksys WRT600N, but most people always have at least one bad thing to say that stops it from being perfect. I've read fewer good things about the Linksys WRT610N (and I'm not sold on the form factor).

Question:

Should I go with the elaborate Netgear setup? Or am I making matters too complicated for what it's worth?

Your thoughs and comments will be greatly appreciated.

XprofQ

 

[tipstir]

Right now is everything working as you want it to be?

Started with this (wireless belkin G)
[attached image]

Had gone with this (100mbps wired and G54 wireless dual network)

Ended up with this (100/1000 mbps & G54 dual network) (pictured with DIR-655)

Today it looks like this (triple-network 100mbps/1000mbps/ N)
picture coming soon

I only say this because to going from G to N is a big step just to get everything stable. N is so new still not standard. 2009 they it's suppose to be standard but the mbps has gone from 300 to 450 (still that isn't standard) G on a N router is pretty fast, but you'll need to place WAP for G around the place so everything is running over 20dB otherwise it could be less then 10 to 20 dB.

 

[XprofQ]

tipstir,

I would say, "yes", everything is working as desired right now, but once I add the MediaSmart Home Server to the network, that may no longer be the case when it comes time to transfer larger files.

I like your setup. Looks like you're one step ahead of me.

You're absolutely correct about N in general (i.e. still draft). I've heard rumors of future routers with 450Mbps throughput. I always thought the throughput of Draft N 2.0 (and eventually final N) was supposed to be 300Mbps. It is of concern to me that Draft N 2.0 is so far away from being finalized that even the theoretical maximum throughput issue isn't resolved yet.

How about this setup?

*Trendnet TEW-633GR setup as the G router with gigabit (I've heard good things about this router in terms of range and reliability, and the firmware seems good based upon my review of the emulator)

*Trendnet TEW-637AP setup as the N access point (cheap).

I don't need 5ghz yet.

 

[thiggins]

You don't really need to do anything to handle the draft 11n client. It will automatically fall back to operate as a draft 11g client if it is talking to an 11g router.

Do you have any gigabit clients to talk to the NAS at gigabit speed? You are not going to even get 100 Mbps throughput from draft 11n gear. See Draft 11n ≠ 100 Mbps Ethernet

 

[XprofQ]

I would like the draft N client to operate at full speed (or at least highest real world speed possible given the environment). I would prefer that the client doesn't fall back to G speeds. Moreover, I recall Tim Higgins' review of the Linksys WRT600N where he stated that his G clients ended up operating at B speeds when the network operated G and N simultaneously (ouch). I definitely want to prevent that from happening.

I do not have a gigabit connect right now, but I would like to have one on my next router because it doesn't add too much to the cost and will give me some flexibility later. There will be a NAS (HP MediaSmart home server) attached directly to the new router when I get one. It was strongly recommended by Tim Higgins that gigabit be used to service the home server. I agree that the home server will be primarily accessed by wireless clients (N and G) that cannot achieve gigabit speeds (i.e. Netgear's reason for not putting a gigabit port on their WNHDE111 access point). But, I'd like to keep my options open because that may change (i.e. In the future, I may hardware a few other computers that are in the office to the router).

 

[thiggins]

By the way, thiggins = Tim Higgins

The throughput hit comes when you mix 11b/g and draft 11n clients and only when both flavors are simultaneously active. You won't suffer a penalty from using a draft 11n router with only 11b/g clients, but you won't gain any throughput advantage, either.

I would point you more toward Linksys and D-Link draft 11n products, with the exception being the WNHDE111, probably the best performing 5 GHz draft 11n product I have seen yet.

The D-Links especially have solid routing sections with automatic QoS for uplink traffic.

 

[tipstir]

Current Setup...

What I have today looks like this.. (images is smaller)

I've used Netgear prior but decided to go with GS605 (green) well two of them one shown above for 1x GS605, 4x systems 2x servers and 2x desktops. I had to return one last week as port 3 just kept going back to 100mbps It's been replaced. So it was faulty and prior to that I had a pass-thru and it kept at 1000mbps. The other one shown here is FS608 for 100mbps devices like 4x G wireless laptops, 2x wireless access points, 2x FS105, 1x FS608, and 7x wired Hauppauge MediaMVP network streaming. with 1 wireless using laptop WDS (home made) homemade WDS hopper I use that with two NiCs 1 wireless and 1 wired on laptop connected to wired MVP using crossover cable.

I've tested the network over the WAN and got this result..

I use teracopy http://www.codesector.com/teracopy.php to speed-up the LAN on larger files as it uses 256KB buffer. I really don't have to use it but someone had mention they were using it. It's free it does speed up the process on 10 seconds 300MB now 8 seconds so I save 2 seconds.

 

[tipstir]

I would like the draft N client to operate at full speed (or at least highest real world speed possible given the environment). I would prefer that the client doesn't fall back to G speeds. Moreover, I recall Tim Higgins' review of the Linksys WRT600N where he stated that his G clients ended up operating at B speeds when the network operated G and N simultaneously (ouch). I definitely want to prevent that from happening.

I do not have a gigabit connect right now, but I would like to have one on my next router because it doesn't add too much to the cost and will give me some flexibility later. There will be a NAS (HP MediaSmart home server) attached directly to the new router when I get one. It was strongly recommended by Tim Higgins that gigabit be used to service the home server. I agree that the home server will be primarily accessed by wireless clients (N and G) that cannot achieve gigabit speeds (i.e. Netgear's reason for not putting a gigabit port on their WNHDE111 access point). But, I'd like to keep my options open because that may change (i.e. In the future, I may hardware a few other computers that are in the office to the router).

You can set and lock the mode to N only with no G would run in any mix mode. I am looking at NICs that support 20dBM for transmit power. This varies between different makers. They all support b/g also using DSSS for G and N is MIMO features. I found NICs without saying Draft-N those only see to max out at 150mbps. Draft-N ones max out around 270Mbps. Draft-N 3x 450mpbs but until Tim does some testing on that, but then again the router firmware would have to support that feature.

 

[XprofQ]

Sorry Tim. I realized that "thiggins" was you about two whole seconds after typing up my response and submitting it.

First, let me thank you for your consistently great reviews. I really appreciate what you do. SmallNetBuilder is without doubt my first source for the information I need. Also, thank you for taking the time to contribute to these forums, and for directing me toward D-link and Linksys products (I was a bit suspicious about the latest Netgear series of routers, but they would make a nice setup because they each look identical ).

I'm glad to see that others here have been running more than one router to separate their G and N networks (with one router set up as an access point, of course). It almost seems that is is necessary to do so. I don't want to cripple the performance of 90% of my network.

Your articles "How To Choose the Right Wireless LAN for You" (8/7/08), "Thinking of Upgrading to Draft 11n? Here's What I'd Do..." (8/14/08), and "Add, Don't Replace When Upgrading to 802.11n" (11/19/07) when read together hit the nail on the head.

These are my lessons learned:

*Wireless clients cannot reach gigabit speeds. Because my home server will be accessed by wireless clients, I don't need a gigabit router (but I will get a gigabit router if it isn't more costly and fits my requirements otherwise).

*Wireless G and N networks don't coexist well. I should buy two wireless routers - one G and one N, both 2.4ghz - and run one as an access point.

*I should get a solid G router, but a high-end N router is not necessary because the performance gains are not likely to be consistent with the increase in cost (i.e. diminishing return). Additionally, the N router will most likely "need" to be upgraded when the N standard is finalized.

*I should look for D-link and Linksys products (perhaps Trendnet too because they are very nearly rebadges D-links?).

*I really don't need a dual band router because I don't use, or plan to use, 5ghz N at this time. If I buy a less expensive N router now, I will be in a position to buy a better dual band N router in the future that will likely have superior 5ghz performance.

Can anyone suggest a nice G router and a Draft N router that would work nicely together? I realize that any two will do, but it would be nice to buy products from the same manufacturer if possible. In the meantime, I will start perusing the web.

 

[thiggins]

Thanks for reading through the articles. That's why I write 'em!

Looks like you got the gist of what I'm trying to convey.

As for routers, the D-Links, which use Ubicom processors have automatic uplink QoS. This can be handy if you run BitTorrent, VoIP/Skype or game and have other users trying to get some bandwidth! The DIR-655 is pretty popular and you currently can get it, delivered, for under $100. For 11g, really anything is fine.

 

[tipstir]

DLINK DIR-655

Trendnet
Linksys
Other brands cheaper since they're the original OEM

Tim I didn't know you had recommended using N wireless access point for N only devices and G wireless access point for only G devices both at 2.4GHz. Good idea I wonder if it would here?

One question what's the G/N dBm transmit power for the DIR-655 compared to your DGL-4300? This info doesn't seem to be available from DLINK. Trendnet and the OEM reports it.

 

[thiggins]

Tim I didn't know you had recommended using N wireless access point for N only devices and G wireless access point for only G devices both at 2.4GHz. Good idea I wonder if it would here?

Add, Don't Replace When Upgrading to 802.11n

One question what's the G/N dBm transmit power for the DIR-655 compared to your DGL-4300? This info doesn't seem to be available from DLINK. Trendnet and the OEM reports it.

I pay no attention to the transmit power specs. But if you want test results, look at the FCC ID test reports.
https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm