Home Network guidance

[Jamster001]

Hi SNB Members,

Here is my situation...

I currently have a TWC leased SB6141 modem with their 50/5 package connected directly to my Asus RT-N66u wireless router. Connected directly to my router via Ethernet are my PS3, Xbox, and satellite receiver (occasionally, I will hard-wire my laptop). Wireless, I have an iPhone, iPad and a laptop. I have been reading-up and have took the steps to invest in a dedicated device network by reading "How To Improve Network Performance". I've purchased my own SB6141 White version modem and also purchased a Netgear GS106 switch; I haven't received them yet but will within the next week or so.

Here is where I stand:

I been looking and comparing both wireless routers and access points. In regards to "future-proofing" my network, would I be better off buying an AC speed rated wireless router and using it as my "router" connected to my modem then to my switch and using my current RT-N66U wireless router as an access point? OR would I be better off buying just an access point/a dual-band wireless router?

Should I go:

SB6141-->Asus RT-N66U-->Netgear switch--> AC Wireless router

OR

SB6141-->AC Wireless router-->Netgear switch-->Asus RT-N66U

Any recommendations and/or different views??? TIA

 

[CooCooCaChoo]

IMHO, the only future proofing you should look into is IPv6 and with the RT-N66 + Merlin, you have that. On the wireless end, the RT-N66 should provide more than enough wireless bandwidth for your needs for a long time.

 

[KGB7]

You can't future proof anything because technology is constantly changing. So buy what you need today and worry about the future when you cross that bridge.

 

[L&LD]

First, do you mean the Netgear GS108 switch?

As for the configuration - you don't mention which and how many devices you're connecting (wired). If the ports on the wireless router you're using are sufficient; adding a network switch will actually slow down your network overall. Depending on how you're using the network.

If you need to expand the GB ports on the router; I would suggest adding a network switch to each port, then, adding the devices that most interact with each other together (on a single switch) and putting the devices that connect to the internet on a separate switch (I know, this can often be contradictory at times: just do the best you can with the number of switches and devices you have; and don't forget that the router itself can be used as a direct connection between 2 devices on separate ports and switches).


For the AC class router; do you upgrade devices (or device network cards) often? Do you plan on keeping it for the next few years? Do you currently have any AC class clients?

Are you able to wait for the next (stable) release of the AC2300 class routers that may offer even better long term performance and compatibility?

Keep in mind that right now, they are promising releasing these new routers around June of this year (I'd be expecting them to be stable enough for everyday use no earlier than September 2014, not to mention cheaper).


With the above questions answered - you will have answered if an AC class router will be the best choice going forward for you.


Yes, technology is constantly changing. This does not mean that we cannot make good and sound decisions today for the best long term bang for our dollars.

 

[Jamster001]

First, do you mean the Netgear GS108 switch?

As for the configuration - you don't mention which and how many devices you're connecting (wired). If the ports on the wireless router you're using are sufficient; adding a network switch will actually slow down your network overall. Depending on how you're using the network.

If you need to expand the GB ports on the router; I would suggest adding a network switch to each port, then, adding the devices that most interact with each other together (on a single switch) and putting the devices that connect to the internet on a separate switch (I know, this can often be contradictory at times: just do the best you can with the number of switches and devices you have; and don't forget that the router itself can be used as a direct connection between 2 devices on separate ports and switches).


For the AC class router; do you upgrade devices (or device network cards) often? Do you plan on keeping it for the next few years? Do you currently have any AC class clients?

Are you able to wait for the next (stable) release of the AC2300 class routers that may offer even better long term performance and compatibility?

Keep in mind that right now, they are promising releasing these new routers around June of this year (I'd be expecting them to be stable enough for everyday use no earlier than September 2014, not to mention cheaper).


With the above questions answered - you will have answered if an AC class router will be the best choice going forward for you.


Yes, technology is constantly changing. This does not mean that we cannot make good and sound decisions today for the best long term bang for our dollars.

Thanks for the replies.

Yes, I meant the Netgear GS108 switch.

As for AC devices, I own zero currently; And will now most likely stay put with my current N speed devices. I was aware that I could simply add a switch to my existing wireless router for more ports BUT I honestly do not need "extra" ports ATM.

I am simply trying to "Optimize" my home network to get the speeds I am currently paying my ISP for throughout my home. The article series that I linked in my OP made sense to me and it should to many users..."Having each device on your network function as a singular dedicated device". The modem should not function as a modem/wireless router combo, The wireless router should only focus on routing traffic, and the switch on, you guessed it, monitoring traffic. From the switch, I am planning on using CAT 6 or 7 to and from the following devices: PS3, Xbox, satellite receiver, Blu-ray player and TV. A PS4 will most likely make it onto the switch, if the wife don't kill me by then. LOL

I am currently disappointed with the 2.4Ghz band offered by the Dark Knight router. I have tried countless firmware from both RMerlin and Asus with little success. I've tried different Wifi channels, along with port-forwarding/DMZ, on different devices and I am still lucky if I get an 8Mbps down wireless connection (speedtest.net, speakeasy and my TWC speed test). On the 5Ghz band, I get my full speed. I plan to put only N capable devices on the 5Ghz band and older rated devices on the 2.4Ghz band.

Overall, I am just looking to better stabilize my home network along with hopefully improving the speed and decreasing latency. I thought I was on the right path????confused:

 

[L&LD]

Jamster, first, you're welcome.

Second; just need to state that I hope you are not deciding on the speed of your wireless RT-N66U connection with small handheld devices like phones or tablets or even laptops running on battery power. The handheld devices are at the bottom of the feeding chain when it comes to throughput and depending on the laptop; running it on batteries can mean that it is running at less than full performance (with regards to WiFi or otherwise).

Best to use a laptop that is plugged in to test properly and/or consistently.

As for the linked article, I don't disagree with it; but do note that a GB level switch incorporated on almost any current router (including the RT-N66U) will not appreciably limit your wired network speeds between devices attached to the physical ports. But adding a single switch might do so.

If you don't need the extra ports and depending on how you actually use your network; putting all the devices on a separate switch will limit the internet and any wireless clients that access anything on the LAN to a single LAN cable (the one connecting the router and the switch). This is not an optimized setup.

The difference? The router is a 5 port GB switch and each port has direct access to the WAN port at (internal) switched speeds. While adding a switch and putting all devices onto it now involves two (external) switches along with the possible noise from the traffic of the other devices connected to this external switch. Traffic that may be trying to use the internet or the LAN resources from devices on your wireless network will all be affected.

Yes it seems confusing to take all aspects of how devices connect and interact with each other in your network into account, but the end result is that if you design the network with a built-in bottleneck, it will 'break' any component you try to upgrade your performance with.


To fully optimize a network with a router and switches.

(Yes; one on each port of the router; added as needed depending on the number of clients, specific use and interrelationships between these clients and the total amount of switching capacity needed).

http://forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showpost.php?p=101607&postcount=4


This may be overkill for your setup, but it does show how to proceed when designing a network for best performance. And to me; that goal is to make the network perform as if only one user is using it at a time. Or in other words; the least amount of intentional bottlenecks introduced in the design at any possible point.



The following link may help you get better speeds from your RT-N66U.

http://forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showpost.php?p=103569&postcount=13



For the AC class router; even with no expected devices designed to use the capabilities of AC in the foreseeable future; it may still be a consideration.

The AC1900 class routers have better range and performance especially in the 5GHz band than the older N900 router you have now, while being equivalent in the 2.4GHz band. They are also better in wired connections too (the built-in switch is upgraded), especially for Total Simultaneous Throughput.

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/lanwan/router-charts/bar/76-total-simul


http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/lanwan/router-charts/bar/113-5-ghz-dn-c?see=MAX


I still suggest trying the settings and tips in the other links I provided to try to optimize what you have first - but the drivers and hardware of the AC1900 class routers are at a different level (as they should be compared to a 2+ year old design such as the RT-N66U).



If you have the budget, the room and the spouse that will allow you to fully optimize a network with a consumer router as described above, I think you have all the information you need. More questions are welcome of course, but I think this will help you decide on which way to proceed.


A final note; if you do decide on the RT-AC68U, for example - I would be replacing the role the RT-N66U is serving with the new router.

Why? Because the only bottleneck your system above has is in it's routing prowess; the RT-AC68U is the better router (use the RT-N66U as an AP, if you still find you need it).

 

[Jamster001]

First, this has been the most informative post I have yet to receive; even on other website forums. A big THANK YOU!!!

A few questions though:

but do note that a GB level switch incorporated on almost any current router (including the RT-N66U) will not appreciably limit your wired network speeds between devices attached to the physical ports. But adding a single switch might do so.

I am not sure I follow you on the above quote. It seems to contradict itself. I "thought" that was what I was doing to better my network; adding a GB level switch to my current router (which will function ONLY as a router) and then a wireless router/access point to it.

***It seems to me that the article titled "How to Improve your Network" is thus invalid according to our discussion here. Although, I may be misunderstanding your theories.

In regards to my LAN activity, my main reasoning in this "network change/optimization" is to have a more stable "pure" connection directly to my PS3 for online gaming. My handheld devices such as the iPad/iPhone and even the laptop are low priority; in regards to speed and maximum throughput. My PS3, Xbox and (PS4 soon; fingers-crossed) are my #1 priority in "optimizing" my network. I want to minimize any latency and be sure I am receiving my ISP paid for speeds (50/5).

I do not have QOS enabled on the rt-n66u router currently. This is because "normally" only one device is utilizing any bandwidth. Once-in-awhile, but rarely, the laptop may being used for internet browsing while connecting wirelessly, along with the PS3 but again this is rare.

I currently do not use much file transfers to the self-powered external HDD connected to the rt-n66u USB. I will occasionally backup my media drive to this networked external HDD.

And to me; that goal is to make the network perform as if only one user is using it at a time.

LOVE this quote. This is my main goal at all times BUT again, rarely are there more than one device on my home network at any given time.

In regards to the link which may help me get better speeds from my RT-N66U, I will be sure to look it over.

Finally, I may be leaning toward one of the AC1900 routers; if my wife does not kill me foremost and if I cannot get the rt-n66u up to speed on its 2.4Ghz band. Again, I rarely hard-wire the laptop to the router since it is mainly used for web browsing (what a waste of $3500). The only time it is physically connected are during firmware updates on the Dark Knight or if I am running speed test on either the modem and/or the router.

BTW, anyone have any suggestions/knowledge when it comes to using CAT 6, 6A, or CAT7? Any reasoning to use one or the other in regards to my current/soon future setup?

Again, thank you so much for your informative replies. Your information and suggestions will surely be fully utilized with much appreciation!

 

[admiral2145]

First, this has been the most informative post I have yet to receive; even on other website forums. A big THANK YOU!!!

A few questions though:



I am not sure I follow you on the above quote. It seems to contradict itself. I "thought" that was what I was doing to better my network; adding a GB level switch to my current router (which will function ONLY as a router) and then a wireless router/access point to it.

***It seems to me that the article titled "How to Improve your Network" is thus invalid according to our discussion here. Although, I may be misunderstanding your theories.

In regards to my LAN activity, my main reasoning in this "network change/optimization" is to have a more stable "pure" connection directly to my PS3 for online gaming. My handheld devices such as the iPad/iPhone and even the laptop are low priority; in regards to speed and maximum throughput. My PS3, Xbox and (PS4 soon; fingers-crossed) are my #1 priority in "optimizing" my network. I want to minimize any latency and be sure I am receiving my ISP paid for speeds (50/5).

I do not have QOS enabled on the rt-n66u router currently. This is because "normally" only one device is utilizing any bandwidth. Once-in-awhile, but rarely, the laptop may being used for internet browsing while connecting wirelessly, along with the PS3 but again this is rare.

I currently do not use much file transfers to the self-powered external HDD connected to the rt-n66u USB. I will occasionally backup my media drive to this networked external HDD.



LOVE this quote. This is my main goal at all times BUT again, rarely are there more than one device on my home network at any given time.

In regards to the link which may help me get better speeds from my RT-N66U, I will be sure to look it over.

Finally, I may be leaning toward one of the AC1900 routers; if my wife does not kill me foremost and if I cannot get the rt-n66u up to speed on its 2.4Ghz band. Again, I rarely hard-wire the laptop to the router since it is mainly used for web browsing (what a waste of $3500). The only time it is physically connected are during firmware updates on the Dark Knight or if I am running speed test on either the modem and/or the router.

BTW, anyone have any suggestions/knowledge when it comes to using CAT 6, 6A, or CAT7? Any reasoning to use one or the other in regards to my current/soon future setup?

Again, thank you so much for your informative replies. Your information and suggestions will surely be fully utilized with much appreciation!

I'm running cat7 that I got from Monoprice.com... Its rated for 10 gigabit and backwards compatible.... Get cat 6 atleast.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

 

[Jamster001]

admiral2145

I do not see any reply or comments from you. Were you just bumping this thread? I see you tried to post using your mobile.

 

[Jamster001]

admiral2145

I do not see any reply or comments from you. Were you just bumping this thread? I see you tried to post using your mobile.

Sorry, I missed your comment. My fault. Thank you for your reply.

 

[RMerlin]

Personally I prefer Cat6. Cat6e are usually more heavily shielded, making them more rigid - makes it harder sometimes to coil them around to put them out of view. Those are quite overkill for Gigabit Ethernet on short distances.

 

[L&LD]

First, this has been the most informative post I have yet to receive; even on other website forums. A big THANK YOU!!!

A few questions though:



I am not sure I follow you on the above quote. It seems to contradict itself. I "thought" that was what I was doing to better my network; adding a GB level switch to my current router (which will function ONLY as a router) and then a wireless router/access point to it.

***It seems to me that the article titled "How to Improve your Network" is thus invalid according to our discussion here. Although, I may be misunderstanding your theories.

In regards to my LAN activity, my main reasoning in this "network change/optimization" is to have a more stable "pure" connection directly to my PS3 for online gaming. My handheld devices such as the iPad/iPhone and even the laptop are low priority; in regards to speed and maximum throughput. My PS3, Xbox and (PS4 soon; fingers-crossed) are my #1 priority in "optimizing" my network. I want to minimize any latency and be sure I am receiving my ISP paid for speeds (50/5).

We are not contradicting each other - we are seeing it from different perspectives.

Because your main use is mostly as a single user at a time, it almost doesn't matter if you add an external switch or not. Especially the way you use your wireless devices.


This may help clear up some of the confusion:

A current wireless router is basically four or five devices in one:

1) A Firewall between our LAN and the outside world.

This needs to be directly connected to our ISP supplied modem without throttling our ISP paid for speeds. Most wireless routers have enough horsepower today for this to not be an issue.


2) A Router (WAN to LAN) between wired and wireless clients.

This needs to have enough performance so that it doesn't bottleneck our ISP paid for speeds (even with multiple devices being connected, and multiple connections per client).

With HW acceleration enabled and actually being used (it can be turned off by enabling QoS, for instance) most N600 and N900 routers should provide enough WAN/LAN and LAN/WAN and SIMULTANEOOUS WAN/LAN wired routing performance for at least a 100Mbps up/down ISP connection.

Newer routers with better processors (SoC's) and more RAM such as the RT-AC56U and the even better (but same SoC equipped) RT-AC68U can provide better routing performance even with features such as QoS enabled (i.e. with HW acceleration disabled; around 250Mbps up/down).



3) A Radio Transmitter (x2, if it's 2 bands) between our Wireless clients.

Depending on the router, an AP may or may not have better radios than any specific 'combo' wireless router we're comparing it too. Many times; it can be worse too.

Of course if our wireless router is a top end model like an RT-N66U or higher. While we can use the same model router and use it in AP only mode - the only benefit would be if we could wire it directly AND move it to a more central location that would be closer for most of our wireless clients for most of the time.

It will still be a bottleneck if we're using those wireless devices the AP is supporting to share network resources located either on the router itself or on a device such as a NAS (such as music, video, pictures or other files) - because now all those devices are going through the single Ethernet cable to the main router that connects it to the rest of our network.


4) USB Ports for sharing HDD's and Printers with our whole network.

This part depends heavily on faster processors (especially for USB 3.0 devices) to operate at an expected level (most routers are still disappointing in this area - but considering they are replacing an 'always on' stand alone computer; the performance compromises for the infrequent usage are usually worth it for some users).


5) A switch for our wired clients (usually 4 ports, but up to 8 are available for some obscure models).

This part is as fast as any discrete switch you can buy at a reasonable price.

While most wireless routers offer only us 4 additional ports (and are therefore nominally 5 port switches, including the WAN port), they are not inferior performance-wise.

Adding a single external switch to a single router port and then connecting all devices to this single added switch is a way to introduce bottlenecks in the network as a whole.

It will depend on which devices are accessing which network resources (wired or wirelessly) and will depend if their network use is rare, frequent, intermittent, continuous or otherwise variable.



I hope this different take and presentation of the same topic helps convey what I'm trying to explain better to you?

You may want to read the whole thread again and the included links for better comprehension.


Also; if anyone can write better than what I have attempted, please jump in!


As for the type of cable to install? A quality CAT6 cable is all that is required and if the runs are less than 128'-180' you're also set for wired 10GBASE-T performance (needed for future, fully realized, AC class connections).

If you have the budget to install the better CAT6a cables, you own the house you're in and you don't plan on selling/moving in the foreseeable future, that would be what I would suggest to install instead.

Before you call your wiring 'done' - make sure to stress test it with all runs tested concurrently.