Home network with switch-first setup?

[prjkthack]

Hey there, need some help. I've done some searching but haven't found much that tells me this is possible.

TLDR, I made a table to illustrate what I'm trying to accomplish.

Modem (netgear CM1100)	-> unmanaged switch (Luxul XGS-1008)	-> ethernet wall jack 1	-> Router (Netgear R7800)
		-> ethernet wall jack 2	-> PC

I have two hard wired ethernet wall ports on 2 separate floors that come up from the basement where my modem currently is. Due to where my router is located though, the modem currently only is connected to the port on the 2nd floor, which is currently plugged into my router. I tried moving my router downstairs, which provided internet to the other port, but the wireless reception is terrible so it's not reasonable to put it there. I have an unmanaged switch, can I use that switch to go from the modem to the two wall jacks, while still having the router on the 2nd floor and another device connected to the 1st floor wall jack?

I tried the config illustrated in my table but only the router continued to work with internet connectivity while the other wall port did not get an internet connection. Can the switch be used in this way? Or do I need something else, like maybe another router? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[ColinTaylor]

No you cannot do that. Look at the manual for the modem.

Only one device can be connected to the modem (typically a router). Even though the modem has two Ethernet ports the only time both ports can be used is when they are combined to create a bonded 2 Gbps link (link aggregation) to a single device.

 

[L&LD]

The table is a little confusing.

Is the modem is connected to the router directly via Jack1? Without, needing a switch in-between?

You would need to connect a LAN port of the R7800 to Jack2 to provide the internet to the PC.

Can you put another Ethernet run from the router to connect to Jack2?

 

[prjkthack]

No you cannot do that. Look at the manual for the modem.

Only one device can be connected to the modem (typically a router). Even though the modem has two Ethernet ports the only time both ports can be used is when they are combined to create a bonded 2 Gbps link (link aggregation) to a single device.

Yeah i'm not using the 2nd port of the modem at all. I was attempting to use the switch to give me the additional ports I need to get the wall jacks connected.

The table is a little confusing.

Is the modem is connected to the router directly via Jack1? Without, needing a switch in-between?

You would need to connect a LAN port of the R7800 to Jack2 to provide the internet to the PC.

Can you put another Ethernet run from the router to connect to Jack2?

My existing setup has the router connected directly to the modem (via the ethernet jack/cable on the 2nd floor), which works fine but since the cabling for both wall ports are fed to the basement there is not a way that I could connect jack2 to the router without ripping up the walls. That's why I'm thinking I need a switch or another router in the basement to plug both jacks into.

 

[L&LD]

What you need are two runs to where the router is. One for the WAN and one back downstairs so you can plug in Jack2.

This can't be done with a single run (Jack1).

 

[Datalink]

Do you happen to have co-located coax cable and ethernet ports on the same wallplates throughout the house, and, do the coax cable and ethernet cables converge at the same point in the basement, in the structured wiring cabinet maybe? If so, this should be easy to solve.

The assumption here is that you have co-located coax cable and ethernet ports on the same wallplates throughout the house which can be used in both directions, upstairs from the basement or the reverse. In this case, you would simply decide where to park the modem and co-located router.

1. connect the incoming coax cable to the appropriate cable run upstairs, using an F-81 connector, which looks like this:

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/ideal-3ghz-f-splice-adapter-10-pack-/1000751479

The upstairs modem and router location would be your choice, depending on where the cable ports are located.

2. connect the modem to the cable port upstairs and connect the modem's ethernet port to the router WAN port and one of the router's LAN ports to the wallplate ethernet port.

3. move the gigabit switch to the basement and connect all of the ethernet cables to the switch.

That will provide wifi service from an upstairs location and ethernet service throughout the house, which can be used to connect ethernet only devices, or used to feed additional wifi access points.

 

[prjkthack]

What you need are two runs to where the router is. One for the WAN and one back downstairs so you can plug in Jack2.

This can't be done with a single run (Jack1).

Gotcha. So I couldn't use another router or a switch in the basement connected to the modem to give me the ports I need for jack1 and jack2?

ie. Modem --> switch/2nd router --> jack1, jack2

 

[ColinTaylor]

Gotcha. So I couldn't use another router or a switch in the basement connected to the modem to give me the ports I need for jack1 and jack2?

ie. Modem --> switch/2nd router --> jack1, jack2

You can't use a switch because you would be connecting more than one client directly to the modem. You could use another router though.

 

[L&LD]

A router (not an 'unmanaged' switch) would work.

But you'll have everything on different networks if your 'main' WiFi router is left in Router mode.

 

[prjkthack]

Do you happen to have co-located coax cable and ethernet ports on the same wallplates throughout the house, and, do the coax cable and ethernet cables converge at the same point in the basement, in the structured wiring cabinet maybe? If so, this should be easy to solve.

The assumption here is that you have co-located coax cable and ethernet ports on the same wallplates throughout the house which can be used in both directions, upstairs from the basement or the reverse. In this case, you would simply decide where to park the modem and co-located router.

1. connect the incoming coax cable to the appropriate cable run upstairs, using an F-81 connector, which looks like this:

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/ideal-3ghz-f-splice-adapter-10-pack-/1000751479

The upstairs modem and router location would be your choice, depending on where the cable ports are located.

2. connect the modem to the cable port upstairs and connect the modem's ethernet port to the router WAN port and one of the router's LAN ports to the wallplate ethernet port.

3. move the gigabit switch to the basement and connect all of the ethernet cables to the switch.

That will provide wifi service from an upstairs location and ethernet service throughout the house, which can be used to connect ethernet only devices, or used to feed additional wifi access points.

Hmmm I do have coax connections in the wallplates at both jack1 and jack2 and a whole mess of coax in the basement in a wiring cabinet of sorts.

This is the wiring cabinet downstairs. That black cable currently runs to the modem. That device in there is a Commscope CSF1APDU9VPI.

I'll have to take a look at it and see if your suggestion would work. I did not think of coax being usable in this sense at all.

You can't use a switch because you would be connecting more than one client directly to the modem. You could use another router though.

A router (not an 'unmanaged' switch) would work.

But you'll have everything on different networks if your 'main' WiFi router is left in Router mode.

Gotcha. I do have an extra router that I have lying around... but.... I certainly don't want things on different networks.

 

[CaptainSTX]

Do you have CATV in addition to internet service?

If no TV then you can use DECA Internet to coaxial adapters. Amazon has DIRECTTV branded adapters for US$24 for a set. If you have video services you are going to need to look at MOCA adapters.

 

[prjkthack]

Do you happen to have co-located coax cable and ethernet ports on the same wallplates throughout the house, and, do the coax cable and ethernet cables converge at the same point in the basement, in the structured wiring cabinet maybe? If so, this should be easy to solve.

The assumption here is that you have co-located coax cable and ethernet ports on the same wallplates throughout the house which can be used in both directions, upstairs from the basement or the reverse. In this case, you would simply decide where to park the modem and co-located router.

1. connect the incoming coax cable to the appropriate cable run upstairs, using an F-81 connector, which looks like this:

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/ideal-3ghz-f-splice-adapter-10-pack-/1000751479

The upstairs modem and router location would be your choice, depending on where the cable ports are located.

2. connect the modem to the cable port upstairs and connect the modem's ethernet port to the router WAN port and one of the router's LAN ports to the wallplate ethernet port.

3. move the gigabit switch to the basement and connect all of the ethernet cables to the switch.

That will provide wifi service from an upstairs location and ethernet service throughout the house, which can be used to connect ethernet only devices, or used to feed additional wifi access points.

This appears to be working great! I didn't even need the F-81 connector since the Commscope box in the basement appears to be aggregating all the coax connections throughout the house. I just moved the modem upstairs and connected it as you suggested and it all worked. Amazing.

Thank you for the suggestion. Really appreciate it.

 

[OzarkEdge]

This appears to be working great! I didn't even need the F-81 connector since the Commscope box in the basement appears to be aggregating all the coax connections throughout the house. I just moved the modem upstairs and connected it as you suggested and it all worked. Amazing.

You still might want to reduce the coax network later to just the incoming ISP cable spliced to the modem coax... keeps it simple and direct and removes all of that unnecessary coax cabling from the network. You don't want anyone connecting stuff to your ISP link and bringing down your Internet service.

OE

 

[Datalink]

Yup, I would agree with that. If you don't need or aren't using all of the connected coax cables, I'd suggest disconnecting them. If it ends up that you only need a single connection to the modem, then I'd connect the incoming cable to the required upstairs cable run with an F-81 connector.

Now, if you need those coax cables to support tv boxes, there's no getting around that, at least for the time being. That said, the Commscope VOIP amplifier has 8 amplified ports and one VOIP passive port (not amplified). Here's the reference page:

CSF1APDU9VPI | CSF1APDU5VPI | CommScope

HomeConnect® Passive VoIP Amplifier, unity forward/reverse, nine ports (Pictured) or five ports 85/105 MHz band split

www.commscope.com

Looking at that page, and your posted photo, it would appear that you're not using the passive VOIP port. That's the port that the modem should be plugged into as it avoids any packet loss or other performance issues brought about by using an amplified port. Conceptually, the amp has an internal, passive, two port splitter, one port runs to the VOIP port, the other port runs to the amplifier. The signal loss thru the VOIP port is a little higher than what you would see with a conventional two port splitter. In this case 4.3 dB versus 3.5 for a conventional splitter.

The one problem with amplifiers is that they can hide poor signal conditions brought about by degraded external cables and their connectors. With a straight thru connection to the modem via the VOIP port, or running thru a passive splitter, you'll notice the problems long before you would if you were using an amplified port. That's a good thing and a bad thing depending on your point of view.

So, connected to the VOIP port, you will have to be a little more aware and take note of the modem's signal levels, checking them occasionally to see if the external cable and its connectors are starting to cause degraded signal levels and potentially low signal to noise ratios. I'd suggest connecting the modem to the VOIP port and then check the signal levels to see where they end up. Prior to that, with the modem connected to an amplified port, log into the modem copy the signal levels and dump them into something like MS Word and save the document so that you can save subsequent signal levels and keep a record over time that you can look back on, all for the purpose of being able to recognize whats normal and what's not normal. If you connect the modem to the VOIP port, you can grab the signal levels and post them, so we can see if their okay, in their current state. Ideally for a DOCSIS 3.0 modem, the downstream signal levels should be centered around 0 dBmV with a signal to noise ratio in the 36 to 40 dB range, but, the one thing to remember in this case is the -4.5 dB hit from the passive VOIP port. The question is, are your signal levels to low to start with and if so, will it be an issue to connect thru the VOIP port? That remains to be seen.

One other item to consider is the co-location of the modem and router. I suggest keeping them a few feet apart, not sitting side by side. That's to avoid any Electromagnetic Interference effects on the modem from any high power WIFI transmissions from the router. EMI can produce strange effects that are hard to track down, so, keeping them apart in the first place will avoid any head scratching down the road.

 

[prjkthack]

You still might want to reduce the coax network later to just the incoming ISP cable spliced to the modem coax... keeps it simple and direct and removes all of that unnecessary coax cabling from the network. You don't want anyone connecting stuff to your ISP link and bringing down your Internet service.

OE

Yup, I would agree with that. If you don't need or aren't using all of the connected coax cables, I'd suggest disconnecting them. If it ends up that you only need a single connection to the modem, then I'd connect the incoming cable to the required upstairs cable run with an F-81 connector.

Now, if you need those coax cables to support tv boxes, there's no getting around that, at least for the time being. That said, the Commscope VOIP amplifier has 8 amplified ports and one VOIP passive port (not amplified). Here's the reference page:

CSF1APDU9VPI | CSF1APDU5VPI | CommScope

HomeConnect® Passive VoIP Amplifier, unity forward/reverse, nine ports (Pictured) or five ports 85/105 MHz band split

www.commscope.com

Looking at that page, and your posted photo, it would appear that you're not using the passive VOIP port. That's the port that the modem should be plugged into as it avoids any packet loss or other performance issues brought about by using an amplified port. Conceptually, the amp has an internal, passive, two port splitter, one port runs to the VOIP port, the other port runs to the amplifier. The signal loss thru the VOIP port is a little higher than what you would see with a conventional two port splitter. In this case 4.3 dB versus 3.5 for a conventional splitter.

The one problem with amplifiers is that they can hide poor signal conditions brought about by degraded external cables and their connectors. With a straight thru connection to the modem via the VOIP port, or running thru a passive splitter, you'll notice the problems long before you would if you were using an amplified port. That's a good thing and a bad thing depending on your point of view.

So, connected to the VOIP port, you will have to be a little more aware and take note of the modem's signal levels, checking them occasionally to see if the external cable and its connectors are starting to cause degraded signal levels and potentially low signal to noise ratios. I'd suggest connecting the modem to the VOIP port and then check the signal levels to see where they end up. Prior to that, with the modem connected to an amplified port, log into the modem copy the signal levels and dump them into something like MS Word and save the document so that you can save subsequent signal levels and keep a record over time that you can look back on, all for the purpose of being able to recognize whats normal and what's not normal. If you connect the modem to the VOIP port, you can grab the signal levels and post them, so we can see if their okay, in their current state. Ideally for a DOCSIS 3.0 modem, the downstream signal levels should be centered around 0 dBmV with a signal to noise ratio in the 36 to 40 dB range, but, the one thing to remember in this case is the -4.5 dB hit from the passive VOIP port. The question is, are your signal levels to low to start with and if so, will it be an issue to connect thru the VOIP port? That remains to be seen.

One other item to consider is the co-location of the modem and router. I suggest keeping them a few feet apart, not sitting side by side. That's to avoid any Electromagnetic Interference effects on the modem from any high power WIFI transmissions from the router. EMI can produce strange effects that are hard to track down, so, keeping them apart in the first place will avoid any head scratching down the road.

Don't do cable TV in this house so I've completely disconnected all the other coax cables. I'll pick up an F-81 connector and directly join the needed coax. For now, I've switched the modem to the VOIP port as suggested.

These are the current stats from the modem connected to the VOIP port on the amplifier:



I think a little later I'll go back and connect it to one of the other coax ports again just to see the stats through an amplified port and compare the difference.

This is also a brand spanking new house, so I hope that the current cables and connectors are in pristine condition. I'll move the modem a little farther too, as I did put them near each other.

Again, appreciate all your assistance.

 

[coxhaus]

The only time you need to use a switch is if you have a business account with multiple outside IP addresses and you want to run a separate router on each IP. Another reason is if you have trouble linking port speed between the router and the mode. And last is if you want to extend your reach for the router. Setting up a switch to a modem causes you not to be able to use the switch because the modem is only going to issue 1 DHCP IP address for 1 device. I did not read the whole thread.

 

[Datalink]

Your signal levels are pretty good running thru the VOIP port. If you cross connect the two cables with an F-81 connector, the downstream levels will rise by about 4.5 dB, and the upstream levels will drop by about 4.5 dB. Your downstream levels should be fine, despite the rise in signal levels. Dropping the upstream levels is usually a good thing, less power out, less heat generated internally within the modem, longer modem life.

When you pickup the F-81 connectors, look for 2.4 or 3 Ghz connectors. That will ensure that the connector will support the first DOCSIS frequency extension up to 1.2 Ghz, if and when your ISP enables that extension.

If you look at the dielectric material in the middle of your current wallplate cable ports, it should be blue in color, denoting 2.4 or 3 Ghz capability or possibly 4 Ghz capability (green color). If the current modem cable port doesn't have that light or darker blue or green color, as in, its a typical contractor installed connector, I'd replace that connector as well.

At the present time, you should be able to disconnect the power for the VOIP amp without affecting the passive VOIP port. There's no point in keeping the VOIP amp powered up. No power, no heat, especially inside a closed structured wiring cabinet.

 

[prjkthack]

Your signal levels are pretty good running thru the VOIP port. If you cross connect the two cables with an F-81 connector, the downstream levels will rise by about 4.5 dB, and the upstream levels will drop by about 4.5 dB. Your downstream levels should be fine, despite the rise in signal levels. Dropping the upstream levels is usually a good thing, less power out, less heat generated internally within the modem, longer modem life.

When you pickup the F-81 connectors, look for 2.4 or 3 Ghz connectors. That will ensure that the connector will support the first DOCSIS frequency extension up to 1.2 Ghz, if and when your ISP enables that extension.

If you look at the dielectric material in the middle of your current wallplate cable ports, it should be blue in color, denoting 2.4 or 3 Ghz capability or possibly 4 Ghz capability (green color). If the current modem cable port doesn't have that light or darker blue or green color, as in, its a typical contractor installed connector, I'd replace that connector as well.

At the present time, you should be able to disconnect the power for the VOIP amp without affecting the passive VOIP port. There's no point in keeping the VOIP amp powered up. No power, no heat, especially inside a closed structured wiring cabinet.

The thing I think you are referring to, is that circular piece in the middle of the wallplate connector, is a clear color for me.

Like this:

So I should replace those with blue or green ones? I just pulled one out of the wall and realized that I can replace the connector with the ones I just bought. Do I also have to replace the cabling that connects these two? Or just the wall plate connector is fine?

I also just picked up the F connectors you linked. Says 3 GHz on it so should be good there. Will use them in a little bit and check the modem stats.

 

[Datalink]

Just replace the connector in the wallplate, don't worry about the cable from the wallplate to the modem unless its RG-59 (an old cable). These days pretty well every cable that is installed is RG-6 which supports cable and satellite ops. On the cable jacket, you should see the manufacturers data and somewhere in the data it should say RG-6. If you looked at the cable jackets at the structured wiring cabinet in the basement, you should see RG-6 printed on them. Physically the RG-6 cable is a slightly larger cable and if you held both RG-59 and RG-6 side by side, you would see the difference in diameter with the RG-6 being the larger of the two.

The 3 Ghz connectors are fine, that's what I use. The green 4 Ghz connectors are overkill and I wouldn't necessarily go hunting for them. If I found them one day, somewhere in my travels, ok, I'd probably buy some, but I wouldn't go out of my way to find them.

Fwiw, that photo looks like a typical contractor installed connector. The material in the middle is the dielectric, which separates the hot center conductor from the external ground. Its not a perfect material, but, there are different grades of dielectric material which are more effective at separating the hot conductor from the ground, at higher frequencies, instead of breaking down and allowing current flow thru the dielectric. It doesn't break down physically, but, at higher frequencies, the cheap connectors will allow some leakage to the outside ground, and as a result, you end up with some small amount of signal loss. So, fwiw, a db here, a db there, in terms of signal loss, it all adds up. This is just paying attention to detail to prevent small losses.

 

[prjkthack]

Just replace the connector in the wallplate, don't worry about the cable from the wallplate to the modem unless its RG-59 (an old cable). These days pretty well every cable that is installed is RG-6 which supports cable and satellite ops. On the cable jacket, you should see the manufacturers data and somewhere in the data it should say RG-6. If you looked at the cable jackets at the structured wiring cabinet in the basement, you should see RG-6 printed on them. Physically the RG-6 cable is a slightly larger cable and if you held both RG-59 and RG-6 side by side, you would see the difference in diameter with the RG-6 being the larger of the two.

The 3 Ghz connectors are fine, that's what I use. The green 4 Ghz connectors are overkill and I wouldn't necessarily go hunting for them. If I found them one day, somewhere in my travels, ok, I'd probably buy some, but I wouldn't go out of my way to find them.

Fwiw, that photo looks like a typical contractor installed connector. The material in the middle is the dielectric, which separates the hot center conductor from the external ground. Its not a perfect material, but, there are different grades of dielectric material which are more effective at separating the hot conductor from the ground, at higher frequencies, instead of breaking down and allowing current flow thru the dielectric. It doesn't break down physically, but, at higher frequencies, the cheap connectors will allow some leakage to the outside ground, and as a result, you end up with some small amount of signal loss. So, fwiw, a db here, a db there, in terms of signal loss, it all adds up. This is just paying attention to detail to prevent small losses.

Gotcha! Yes, I learned I can remove the wall plate and simply replace the connector, which is pretty easy. I might as well go around the house and replace them all with the blue ones I just bought (as I only found them in a 10-pack), even if they aren't connected in the basement. At least the blue will look visually fancier. I tried looking for green ones and.... I don't see much. I'll stick with blue.

And you are right, they are RG6 cables.

Again I'll get these all swapped out soon and then look at some stats.

Appreciate it.