Not New to MoCA but New Issues...

[William Vogel]

I've been renting for the last 10+ years and upon learning about MoCA figured that was the best route to go to make use of the existing coax lines my houses / apartments have had in the past. Well, I've just bought a house and figured it'd be easy to just keep my MoCA network, and expand it as needed. Apparently, that is not the case and I'm at a loss that I'm hoping some one can help me with.

I've attached a diagram of my current setup and I'll try my best to explain my issue(s) here:

• Set Up:
  • Connection comes from from my ISP (Verizon FiOS) into the ONT Box
    
  • ONT Box has an Ethernet run to my Router / Modem
  • Router / Modem outputs an Ethernet line to my first MoCA Adapter
  • MoCA Adapter, via coax, runs into the input of a 2-way-splitter
    • One of these lines, via the output on the splitter, goes directly into another room and connects to a MoCA adapter there, that then feeds via Ethernet into a switch to connect my devices at that location
    • The other output line runs across the house to the input of a 4-way-splitter
  • 4-way-splitter feeds out into 4 coax lines
    • Two of which do not have a terminating connection point yet. It's just the run coax lines to the respective rooms
    • Two run to two separate MoCA adapters
      • One adapter feeds into an Ethernet line that directly connects to a computer
      • One adapter feeds into another Ethernet switch that connects to my devices at that location
• Issues:
  • The two MoCA adapters on the other side of the house (connected via the 4-way) recognize each other as indicated by their coax lights being on
  • The other two MoCA adapaters (coming from my router and running directly off the 2-way splitter) recognize each other as indicated by their coax lights as well
  • I cannot however get an internet signal at all on the other side of the house (4-way splitter side)
  • I cannot get a stable internet signal to the bedroom
• Things I've Tried:
  • I've tried different combinations of switching what should always be the input line to the outputs of the splitters
  • I've tried swapping out the 2-way splitter with another 2-way splitter
• Results:
  • Depending on the combinations, I've been able to temporarily pick up an internet signal at different spots, but never all of the spots
  • At times, some of the MoCA adapters will stop recognizing the other ones altogether, i.e. the one at the computer won't recognize any other MoCA but the one with a switch (one the same side of the splitter) will. Or, the direct line off the 2-way splitter won't recognize a MoCA adapter. Even at times the MoCA coming off my router won't recognize any other MoCA is on the network.
• Current Standing:
  • I've got the inputs flowing back into the correct ports of the splitters and the outputs coming out of the correct ports.
  • MoCA off the router does not recognize any other MoCA is connected
  • MoCA off the direct line from the 2-way does not recognize any other MoCA is connected
  • MoCA's off the 4-way recognize (I assume) each other
  • No internet connection what so ever to any of the lines

The 2-way splitters I've swapped out are ones I've already owned, not new purchases. So, I'm wondering if maybe both the splitters have gone bad or something? Or that the 4-way-splitter is bad as well as my 2-way-splitters? Or possibly that I need am amplifier as the run going across the house off the 2-way, into the 4-way is probably about 50' or so.

I'd like to note that while I own a filter, I do not have it installed as none of the coax lines connect to anything outside of the house / this network. It's all self contained and in order for the signal to leave the house / network, it would have to feed back through the Ethernet line between the first MoCA and my Router / Modem. This is similar to how my setup was at my old place and I had zero issues. The difference really being the 4-way-splitter as even my old place had about a 50' run from the first MoCA over to my second MoCA on that side of the house.

I've got a new 4-way and a new 2-way coming in the mail from Amazon that I'll be able to test out come this Sunday but I was hoping someone might be able to point out some glaring issue that I'm just missing so I can make sure come Sunday I'm officially up and running.

Thanks in advanced!

 

[degrub]

What is the cable type - RG6 or RG59 ?

The splitters have to be rated for MOCA2 (5-~1650 MHz) AND be bidirectional. Be sure to cap any unused ports with 75 ohm termination caps or better yet use a splitter with fewer ports (less loss)

See if you can get a MOCA sync if you place a MOCA adapter in place of the 4 way splitter on it's input cable from the two way. There is likely too much signal drop from the 2way splitter through cable through the 4 way splitter through the cable to a MOCA adapter. If that is the case, replace with a MOCA2 certified amplified bidirectional splitter. If not, you may have a cable or cable termination issue.

 

[William Vogel]

What is the cable type - RG6 or RG59 ?

The splitters have to be rated for MOCA2 (5-~1650 MHz) AND be bidirectional. Be sure to cap any unused ports with 75 ohm termination caps or better yet use a splitter with fewer ports (less loss)

See if you can get a MOCA sync if you place a MOCA adapter in place of the 4 way splitter on it's input cable from the two way. There is likely too much signal drop from the 2way splitter through cable through the 4 way splitter through the cable to a MOCA adapter. If that is the case, replace with a MOCA2 certified amplified bidirectional splitter. If not, you may have a cable or cable termination issue.

The new splitters I ordered, I made sure were bi-directional and I believe they're 5-2300MHz actually. Good idea though on taking one of the MoCA's to a spot before the splitter to see if I still get a signal over there. That may help narrow down where / why I'm having issues.

It's brand new line that I just ran, so it *shouldn't* be the cable, but you never know. That should at least help me see if I'm getting a signal at all though and if I'm not, then it's either THAT cable, the 2-way, or too much signal loss before I even get to the 4-way.

Just to clarify as well, I'd be looking to place the 2-way splitter with the amplifier splitter, correct? To boost the signal over to the 4-way?

 

[degrub]

That's why i suggested that test.
you put an amp where it is needed to overcome signal drop. It is more likely you need at the 4 way split. 50 ft of cable in good condition is not an issue. i have 75-100 ft runs with no amplification.

A 2 way splitter should have about 2-4 dB drop, a 4 way, IIRC, is around 8-10 dB. You can get low loss, but you likely won't need it. Just minimize the number of connections through out the cable system. Use a splitter with the fewest connections to minimize signal drop.

i hope you did not put any sharp bends or use staples to anchor to structure in the RG6 that you ran. The other thing that can get you is poor termination of the connectors. No shield strand whiskers into the core insulator or connector cavity and adequate core conductor length and the shield bonded to the outer metal of the connector. Also want to be at least a foot away from 60/50 cycle power and/or at right angles to the power cable where you have to cross.

 

[krkaufman]

Given you're having issues, I'd recommend using known-good MoCA 2.0-rated splitters, specifically, Holland GHS-PRO-M series. (e.g.); and also that you reconsider the hierarchy in light of the performance benefits of a "PoE" MoCA filter (see here), even if you don't need one for securing the MoCA network.

Something similar to the following (at least on the MoCA side), though it sounds like you may require a couple splitters...

​

The open end of the "PoE" MoCA filter should be capped with a 75-ohm terminator, same as any other unused ports.

 

[krkaufman]

Oh, also, with all the changes you're making to your setup, you may want (need) to do a full power reset of all your equipment, which sometimes helps resolve unexplained hang-ups.

To do a full power reset, power down ALL your gear (modem, router, network switches, MoCA adapters, TiVo devices), and leave it all off for a minute or three; and then power the devices back on, in the order above, allowing each device to come online before proceeding to the next.

 

[krkaufman]

See if you can get a MOCA sync if you place a MOCA adapter in place of the 4 way splitter on it's input cable from the two way. There is likely too much signal drop from the 2way splitter through cable through the 4 way splitter through the cable to a MOCA adapter. If that is the case, replace with a MOCA2 certified amplified bidirectional splitter.

This doesn't seem correct. MoCA has its own built-in amplification, and any "MoCA amps" only amplify sub-MoCA frequencies, while ensuring that MoCA signals can pass between the output ports ... but with greater or complete attenuation of the MoCA signal between the input and output ports.

 

[krkaufman]

Given you're having issues, I'd recommend using known-good MoCA 2.0-rated splitters, specifically, Holland GHS-PRO-M series. (e.g.); and also that you reconsider the hierarchy in light of the performance benefits of a "PoE" MoCA filter (see here), even if you don't need one for securing the MoCA network.

Something similar to the following (at least on the MoCA side), though it sounds like you may require a couple splitters...

View attachment 13577​

The open end of the "PoE" MoCA filter should be capped with a 75-ohm terminator, same as any other unused ports.

It sounds like you'd need something closer to the following, rather than the single N-way splitter in my previous example diagram ...

edit: p.s. Though, as suggested by @degrub above, you'd be wise to downsize the 4-way splitter if you're only using 2 of its outputs.

 

[degrub]

This doesn't seem correct. MoCA has its own built-in amplification, and any "MoCA amps" only amplify sub-MoCA frequencies, while ensuring that MoCA signals can pass between the output ports ... but with greater or complete attenuation of the MoCA signal between the input and output ports.

What is the budget on the MOCA2 modems ?

 

[krkaufman]

What is the budget on the MOCA2 modems ?

I don't understand the question.

 

[CaptainSTX]

I've been renting for the last 10+ years and upon learning about MoCA figured that was the best route to go to make use of the existing coax lines my houses / apartments have had in the past. Well, I've just bought a house and figured it'd be easy to just keep my MoCA network, and expand it as needed. Apparently, that is not the case and I'm at a loss that I'm hoping some one can help me with.

I've attached a diagram of my current setup and I'll try my best to explain my issue(s) here:

• Set Up:
  • Connection comes from from my ISP (Verizon FiOS) into the ONT Box
    
  • ONT Box has an Ethernet run to my Router / Modem
  • Router / Modem outputs an Ethernet line to my first MoCA Adapter
  • MoCA Adapter, via coax, runs into the input of a 2-way-splitter
    • One of these lines, via the output on the splitter, goes directly into another room and connects to a MoCA adapter there, that then feeds via Ethernet into a switch to connect my devices at that location
    • The other output line runs across the house to the input of a 4-way-splitter
  • 4-way-splitter feeds out into 4 coax lines
    • Two of which do not have a terminating connection point yet. It's just the run coax lines to the respective rooms
    • Two run to two separate MoCA adapters
      • One adapter feeds into an Ethernet line that directly connects to a computer
      • One adapter feeds into another Ethernet switch that connects to my devices at that location
• Issues:
  • The two MoCA adapters on the other side of the house (connected via the 4-way) recognize each other as indicated by their coax lights being on
  • The other two MoCA adapaters (coming from my router and running directly off the 2-way splitter) recognize each other as indicated by their coax lights as well
  • I cannot however get an internet signal at all on the other side of the house (4-way splitter side)
  • I cannot get a stable internet signal to the bedroom
• Things I've Tried:
  • I've tried different combinations of switching what should always be the input line to the outputs of the splitters
  • I've tried swapping out the 2-way splitter with another 2-way splitter
• Results:
  • Depending on the combinations, I've been able to temporarily pick up an internet signal at different spots, but never all of the spots
  • At times, some of the MoCA adapters will stop recognizing the other ones altogether, i.e. the one at the computer won't recognize any other MoCA but the one with a switch (one the same side of the splitter) will. Or, the direct line off the 2-way splitter won't recognize a MoCA adapter. Even at times the MoCA coming off my router won't recognize any other MoCA is on the network.
• Current Standing:
  • I've got the inputs flowing back into the correct ports of the splitters and the outputs coming out of the correct ports.
  • MoCA off the router does not recognize any other MoCA is connected
  • MoCA off the direct line from the 2-way does not recognize any other MoCA is connected
  • MoCA's off the 4-way recognize (I assume) each other
  • No internet connection what so ever to any of the lines

The 2-way splitters I've swapped out are ones I've already owned, not new purchases. So, I'm wondering if maybe both the splitters have gone bad or something? Or that the 4-way-splitter is bad as well as my 2-way-splitters? Or possibly that I need am amplifier as the run going across the house off the 2-way, into the 4-way is probably about 50' or so.

I'd like to note that while I own a filter, I do not have it installed as none of the coax lines connect to anything outside of the house / this network. It's all self contained and in order for the signal to leave the house / network, it would have to feed back through the Ethernet line between the first MoCA and my Router / Modem. This is similar to how my setup was at my old place and I had zero issues. The difference really being the 4-way-splitter as even my old place had about a 50' run from the first MoCA over to my second MoCA on that side of the house.

I've got a new 4-way and a new 2-way coming in the mail from Amazon that I'll be able to test out come this Sunday but I was hoping someone might be able to point out some glaring issue that I'm just missing so I can make sure come Sunday I'm officially up and running.

Thanks in advanced!

Does the router your ISP provide MOCA output? FIOS does on many of their routers so there is the possibility if you have FIOS you have two interferring MOCA networks.

 

[degrub]

I don't understand the question.

how much power can the MOCA2 modems put down the wire ?
Most of the time this is listed as dB budget.

 

[krkaufman]

how much power can the MOCA2 modems put down the wire ?
Most of the time this is listed as dB budget.

I don't know what absolute power is output by MoCA adapters, but MoCA allows a max of 58 dB of loss between nodes, though it's my understanding that PHY rates start to take a hit once you go over 50 dB between nodes.

 

[krkaufman]

Does the router your ISP provide MOCA output? FIOS does on many of their routers so there is the possibility if you have FIOS you have two interferring MOCA networks.

That shouldn't be an issue if their diagram is accurate, as the router isn't connected to the coax plant.

View attachment 13576​

 

[William Vogel]

That's why i suggested that test.
you put an amp where it is needed to overcome signal drop. It is more likely you need at the 4 way split. 50 ft of cable in good condition is not an issue. i have 75-100 ft runs with no amplification.

A 2 way splitter should have about 2-4 dB drop, a 4 way, IIRC, is around 8-10 dB. You can get low loss, but you likely won't need it. Just minimize the number of connections through out the cable system. Use a splitter with the fewest connections to minimize signal drop.

i hope you did not put any sharp bends or use staples to anchor to structure in the RG6 that you ran. The other thing that can get you is poor termination of the connectors. No shield strand whiskers into the core insulator or connector cavity and adequate core conductor length and the shield bonded to the outer metal of the connector. Also want to be at least a foot away from 60/50 cycle power and/or at right angles to the power cable where you have to cross.

As an update, I got my new splitters over the weekend and managed to get them wired in. At this point, all of my MoCA adapters except for the one at my router recognize that they're connected via coax. What that tells me, is that the MoCA off the 2-way is now sensing at least one of the MoCA's off the 4-way across the house. So, I'm pretty sure it's narrowed down to a bad line from my MoCA adapter at the router, to the 2-way splitter that's not allowing an internet signal to get through.

I"m going to try and re-run that line and see if that fixes everything.

 

[William Vogel]

It sounds like you'd need something closer to the following, rather than the single N-way splitter in my previous example diagram ...

View attachment 13578

edit: p.s. Though, as suggested by @degrub above, you'd be wise to downsize the 4-way splitter if you're only using 2 of its outputs.

I'm not sure that I understand your diagrams? It would seem to indicate that just putting a filter onto a splitter, even without a line going through it would somehow increase the performance of my network?

 

[William Vogel]

Does the router your ISP provide MOCA output? FIOS does on many of their routers so there is the possibility if you have FIOS you have two interferring MOCA networks.

Verizon's routers are also modems...so it has a coax input but also an ethernet input. From what I've been told by the installation guys, Verizon no longer runs coax lines to the router / modems and just run an ethernet line from the ONT out to the router / modem to provide internet. There are also new ONT boxes that they install in houses these days.

I'd have to check the ONT box to see if it has a coax out option. If it does, I may be able to feed that coax out into my MoCA adapter(s) on that side of the house and avoid the ~50ft run into the 4-way from where my modem / router is. Which could result in a performance boost on the network for those connected devices.

However, it still doesn't quite solve the issue I'm having with my MoCA adapter at my router / modem not recognizing the other MoCA adapters...thus not providing any internet signal. However, as I've posted above, I believe I may have narrowed it down to a bad line after installing my new splitters and seeing that they all recognize that there are other MoCA devices connected.

 

[degrub]

i would bet on a connector seating on the cable instead of the cable itself unless you can find a kink or a pinch in the cable.

 

[William Vogel]

i would bet on a connector seating on the cable instead of the cable itself unless you can find a kink or a pinch in the cable.

Oddly enough, last night I pulled out the wall jack and the short stint of cable going from the wall jack to the 2-way splitter and just ran the full wire from inside the house, out to the splitter itself and I started to get a signal, but only with the cable in a certain position / threaded depth at the connection point to the MoCA at my router / modem. Seems like it may have been a combination of issues but ultimately now, it's down to the connection of the coax to the MoCA...which I have it resting in the exact spot it needs to be to continue giving me signal, so I'm not having any issues.

I may have to re-terminate that end at some...or just never move it again haha