Quick Network/Guest question

[wyliec2]

I'm running up against the 32 device limit per radio (2.4 GHz) on my AX88U Pro - this is primarily due to smart home devices (minimal bandwidth switches, etc).

My question is do the guest and regular 2.4 GHz share a total of 32 devices or can the guest and regular networks each have their own limit??

For background, my 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz are separate. When I look at Network Map and look at wireless 2.4 GHz clients I usually see 33 or 34 devices (a question in itself). Sometimes when I try to connect to the 2.4 GHz with my phone (normally on 5 GHz) I'll get an error "cannot connect to 2.4 network). Other times I can connect, even though the count is already at 33.

TIA for any info.

FWIW - I had an AC88U router with AC3100 wired AP (another separate 2.4 GHz network) that worked flawlessly for 5 years - literally the last Merlin firmware update I'd done was September 2019... In any case, I replaced the AC88U with AX88U Pro, replaced some problematic Wemo (Belkin) dimmer switches and tried to better organize which 2.4 GHz network the smart devices were connecting to....and chasing some headaches since....

 

[ColinTaylor]

My question is do the guest and regular 2.4 GHz share a total of 32 devices or can the guest and regular networks each have their own limit??

Each has it's own limit.

 

[wyliec2]

Each has it's own limit.

Thanks!! This helps me figure out next steps!!!

 

[ColinTaylor]

Thanks!! This helps me figure out next steps!!!

I'm surprised you're finding a limit of 32 connected devices. Other Asus routers I've seen have had a limit of 128 devices per AP on 2.4GHz.

 

[wyliec2]

I'm surprised you're finding a limit of 32 connected devices. Other Asus routers I've seen have had a limit of 128 devices per AP on 2.4GHz.

I came to that assumption after numerous searches - I could not find a limit in the documentation I had available.

When I first installed the AX88U Pro, I tried to make a more coherent network assignment based on proximity to router or access point.

In doing so, I wound up having numerous problems getting smart home devices reconnected...initially thinking an issue with the 388.8.2 firmware I'd installed. I installed 388.7 instead.

Along the way, I found two devices that had been working (again for years), that would no longer pair and allow network setup - factory reset on the device would not connect to any network...

I also noted that I was showing 33-34 devices on the 2.4 GHz network. On one occasion, I tried to connect to the 2.4 GHz network from my phone when it was already showing 33 clients and got a 'cannot connect' message.

32 devices seems like a low limit with the number of smart devices available...

As mentioned, I have not found a definitive reference to answer this question so I'm kind of guessassuming here...

 

[Tech9]

I came to that assumption after numerous searches - I could not find a limit in the documentation I had available.

It’s more like ~30 active devices and since the radio is the same the limit applies to all virtual interfaces using it. Your IoTs though are fine, most just need to stay connected and send/receive minimal data. As always - YMMV.

 

[wyliec2]

It’s more like ~30 active devices and since the radio is the same the limit applies to all virtual interfaces using it. Your IoTs though are fine, most just need to stay connected and send/receive minimal data. As always - YMMV.

Actually - a reply from you in a January 2022 SNB thread was one of the few references to a numeric limit:

"In theory up to 32 devices per radio is what home routers support, if it makes you feel better.
In practice - it depends on how many and how active the users are. A single AX client may steal the entire bandwidth."

I know from a bandwidth/utilization standpoint, my situation involves minimal data transfer. It's more the question of is there a hard limit to the number of connections that can be simultaneously maintained?? To clarify, are you saying there is a hard limit on connection regardless of the actual network usage??

I have assigned manual IP addresses to the MAC addresses of most of my IoT devices - not sure if that has any impact good or bad...???

 

[Tech9]

It's more the question of is there a hard limit to the number of connections that can be simultaneously maintained?

Asus doesn’t mention it in specs, similar hardware Netgear says up to 32, some Linksys models say up to 30. I don’t know the exact number. What I know is for many clients it’s better to use multiple APs or at least HD (high-density) business class APs. They support more active clients per radio, in theory. In reality most 2.4GHz APs (more common 802.11n) work on 20MHz wide channel, link speed up to 144Mbps to common 2-stream client, throughput about 80-90Mbps or less (environment dependent). If you have 30 active clients talking at the same time they’ll get up to 3Mbps each. Total bandwidth is shared between the clients, the radio serves them one by one sharing air time.

 

[wyliec2]

Asus doesn’t mention it in specs, similar hardware Netgear says up to 32, some Linksys models say up to 30. I don’t know the exact number. What I know is for many clients it’s better to use multiple APs or at least HD (high-density) business class APs. They support more active clients per radio, in theory. In reality most 2.4GHz APs (more common 802.11n) work on 20MHz wide channel, link speed up to 144Mbps to common 2-stream client, throughput about 80-90Mbps or less (environment dependent). If you have 30 active clients talking at the same time they’ll get up to 3Mbps each. Total bandwidth is shared between the clients, the radio serves them one by one sharing air time.

Ok, I have managed to get 36 devices connected to a single 2.4 GHz network - not sure about issues I was having earlier with a 'cannot connect' message..

Most of my IoT devices are light/dimmer switches and on/off plugs so there shouldn't be a bandwidth issue, however, I'm leaning to reducing the number of concurrently connected devices. To accomplish this, I may add a third 2.4 GHz network.

I do want to segregate which router some of the IoT devices connect to as my primary router (AX88U Pro) is on a UPS & Generator and some of the IoT devices are higher priority with some security functionality.

I have an old RT-N66U on the shelf - wondering if there's any issues using this as a 2.4 GHz only AP???

 

[Tech9]

If adding Guest Networks only - they are virtual interfaces to the same radio and your total limit of connected/active devices won't change. Test your luck with >30 devices, in theory IoTs are not an issue, but in reality the experience may be different. If your IoTs work well - great, no change needed. If they don't - think about dedicating an AP for IoTs exclusively. Sure you can use your existing RT-N66U as free option, but it's perhaps better to use it in Router Mode with restricted access in Firewall to the network upstream. In AP Mode separation will be difficult. The better approach is something VLAN capable like business class AP, but since you run Asuswrt-Merlin (currently Asuswrt 4.0 based) on your Pro router VLANs are not available there yet. You have to figure out this part. Stock Asuswrt 5.0 for your router has VLANs support. Asuswrt-Merlin based on Asuswrt 5.0 may be coming at some point for your model, but no information when. Asus has to send workable GPL to RMerlin first.

 

[wyliec2]

I wound up adding the N66U as a third router for 2.4 GHz only network to support IoT devices. So I now have 3 2.4 GHz networks:
Net1 (primary router AX88U Pro)
Net2 (Access Point AC3100)
Net3 (Access Point N66U)

Moving the IoT devices to a different network is somewhat of a PITA in that most times it involves entirely removing the device and reinstalling it - so any groups or schedules associated with the device are corrupted when it is deleted and must be rebuilt after re-adding it to the new network...

I now have the 2.4 GHz devices distributed across the three routers on their three respective 2.4 GHz networks with unique SSIDs.

What I'm finding is that often, while the IoT device shows on the correct Net2 or Net3 Network Map 2.4 wireless Client List, it also shows on the primary router (Net1) 2.4 wireless Client List. My initial assumption was that the respective router wireless client lists would show those devices connected to that radio - this apparently isn't the case making it difficult to definitively identify which network a device is using. Exacerbating the situation is that many of the devices do not have an easy way to see what network they are connected to either.

Anyway, things seem to be working well at this point and I'll just disregard the wireless devices showing on multiple client lists...

 

[Tech9]

What I'm finding is that often, while the IoT device shows on the correct Net2 or Net3 Network Map 2.4 wireless Client List, it also shows on the primary router (Net1) 2.4 wireless Client List.

Because none of your IoT devices are isolated from the main network when connected to Asus routers in AP Mode.

 

[wyliec2]

Because none of your IoT devices are isolated from the main network when connected to Asus routers in AP Mode.

I understand that all of the IoT devices are on the main network that covers all three routers.

My question is should the respective 2.4 GHz client list only show devices connected to that router/radio?

Consider
Router A - 2.4 GHz SSID Net1
Router B - 2.4 GHz SSID Net2
Router C - 2.4 GHz SSID Net3

I have IoT devices connected to Router B Net2 - all of these devices show on the RouterB 2.4 GHz client list. Some of these also show on the 2.4 GHz client list for Router A Net1.

Out of roughly 45 IoT devices equally distributed between Router A/Net1, Router B/Net2 and Router C/Net3, Router A will show 30 - 36 clients on the 2.4 GHz client list. Many of the IoT devices are listed on both their respectively connected Router B or Router C but also show on Router A.

Only some of these IoT devices are duplicate listed in 2.4 GHz client lists - not nearly all and with specific device types, some are duplicated and some are not.

My expectation that the 2.4 GHz wireless client lists would only show devices connected to that router's 2.4 GHz radio and this doesn't seem to be the case.

I have experimented using guest networks but had issues with the device isolation. For now, everything resides on my primary network and the only guest devices are actual guests that visit our home.

 

[Tech9]

My question is should the respective 2.4 GHz client list only show devices connected to that router/radio?

It will see other network connected devices as well. Wireless devices connected to the particular AP will show as wireless, everything else including wireless devices connected to other APs will show as wired. May or may not show all the devices and the connection type may be inaccurate. Client List in Asuswrt is buggy, unreliable. Your 3x different SSIDs make little sense. Non-IoT devices can't roam between your APs. It's the same network anyway.

the only guest devices are actual guests that visit our home

This works on your main router only, but not on the others in AP Mode. Guest Network in AP Mode doesn't have isolation from the main network.

 

[wyliec2]

It will see other network connected devices as well. Wireless devices connected to the particular AP will show as wireless, everything else including wireless devices connected to other APs will show as wired. May or may not show all the devices and the connection type may be inaccurate. Client List in Asuswrt is buggy, unreliable. Your 3x different SSIDs make little sense. Non-IoT devices can't roam between your APs. It's the same network anyway.



This works on your main router only, but not on the others in AP Mode. Guest Network in AP Mode doesn't have isolation from the main network.

So the fundamental answer to why a 2.4 GHz device connected to router B shows up on both the router B 2.4 GHz client list and the router A 2.4 GHz client list is because the basic network map function is flaky (note - I understand why it might show as wired on router A but, again, it is specifically showing up on the router A 2.4 GHz wireless client list even though it is not connected to the router A wireless network).

I appreciate your patience in answering my questions!!

There is a rationale for multiple SSIDs in that there's an unanswered question as to the maximum number of devices a single wireless radio will support and there are some devices I specifically want on my main router as they have quasi-security purposes and the main router has extended power failure capability. Most of the IoT devices are irrelevant in a power failure. The three routers are also distributed such that they are in proximity to the IoT devices which are connected to them. A mesh network would not allow me to specifically target which router an IoT device connects to.

Yes, the actual guest users are only on the main router and this is as intended. There are no guest networks enabled on the APs.