Routers...

[Jamster001]

Hello Everyone.

As this is my first post, I would like to thank you all for your discussions and past threads on this forum. A lot has been learned but plenty more to explore.

Anyways,

My question is whether or not a newer router, such as the NetGear WNDR4500 or Cisco E4200v2, will have a very noticeable WIRED throughput when connected to a game console such as the PS3 and XBOX360; when compared to my 5 year old WNDR3700 router? My current setup is this...

My ISP is Time Warner Cable and I pay for their Extreme cable service for 30MBps down and 5MBps up. At first, they gave me a Motorola SBG6580 modem/wireless router combo and I consistently had issues when bridging the modem to work with my WNDR3700 router. Finally, my ISP allowed me to swap out modems and I received a Motorola SB6141 modem. I now have that paired with my WNDR3700 router and the game consoles are hardwired directly to the router. I have setup static IPs and DMZ, and have tried port forwarding, but I constantly deal with lag as well as lost packets. So, my question again is, will it be beneficial to and noticeably better to purchase a newer wireless router such as the ones I mentioned earlier; and will I receive a noticeable difference while using any hardwired devices? Also, will I notice a huge difference in both speed and range when using a newer routers WiFi?

Again, thank you all for your knowledge and sharing any of your advice.

 

[Jamster001]

Does anyone have any suggestions for a router that will be hardwired to a PS3? My current TWC (Time warner cable) cable speed is 30/5 and I am thinking of increasing to a 50/5. Again, wireless is not that important just need a reliable and consistent connection from my Motorola SB6141 to a router hardwired to my PS3. Anything?

 

[thetoad30]

Hello Everyone.

As this is my first post, I would like to thank you all for your discussions and past threads on this forum. A lot has been learned but plenty more to explore.

Anyways,

My question is whether or not a newer router, such as the NetGear WNDR4500 or Cisco E4200v2, will have a very noticeable WIRED throughput when connected to a game console such as the PS3 and XBOX360; when compared to my 5 year old WNDR3700 router? My current setup is this...

My ISP is Time Warner Cable and I pay for their Extreme cable service for 30MBps down and 5MBps up. At first, they gave me a Motorola SBG6580 modem/wireless router combo and I consistently had issues when bridging the modem to work with my WNDR3700 router. Finally, my ISP allowed me to swap out modems and I received a Motorola SB6141 modem. I now have that paired with my WNDR3700 router and the game consoles are hardwired directly to the router. I have setup static IPs and DMZ, and have tried port forwarding, but I constantly deal with lag as well as lost packets. So, my question again is, will it be beneficial to and noticeably better to purchase a newer wireless router such as the ones I mentioned earlier; and will I receive a noticeable difference while using any hardwired devices? Also, will I notice a huge difference in both speed and range when using a newer routers WiFi?

Again, thank you all for your knowledge and sharing any of your advice.

I highly doubt that your router is causing problems on the internal LAN (wired devices). I say this because if that was the case, you'd be having more than just issues every now and then.

Lag, as you're explaining it, is attributed to the internet service provider you are using, or, your router's WAN port or routing capabilities.

I have the WNDR3700v2, and I am using it with Comcast's 25/5 service, but I routinely hit upwards of 50mbps down and usually around 6 mbps up. I have noticed no lag. These routers we have are very powerful and are not out of date by any means at this time.

Have you tried upgrading your router's firmware? Have you done speed tests (speedtest.net) both while the internet is working and while it is lagging? My assumption is that your ISP is becoming overloaded or is doing something on the line. I have a friend who would always drop out at 1:30 AM his time during gaming on the weekends. It was like clockwork. Every night. His ISP never admitted to anything, but obviously something was cycling every night at 1:30 AM.

The other thing you could try is to hook a device directly to the cable modem and see if you're still having the same problems. If you are, then it's your ISP. If not, then it's either the router configuration, or the router itself as you first suspected.

Try these things and that should help you troubleshoot.

As for wireless range - it's all iffy. The WNDR4500 is just a rebranded WNDR3700v2, so that probably won't help you, unless you had an original WNDR3700 that had radio problems. Google the issue of "WNDR3700 DD-WRT wireless radio failure" and that should get you some results and help you check serial numbers to see if you're affected.

As for the Cisco router - I try to avoid Cisco like the plague now. Or, really, Linksys products. I just find that they have cheapened them up the past few years to the point they aren't worth the money. However, if you were to go business class with true Cisco, they are top notch (and have a price to boot). I currently have a WRT54Gv2 that I have been using for a decade and the thing still works like it was brand new. So they used to be my favorite, but not anymore. I just think they've cut corners too much. Just my two cents, though.

 

[stevech]

Linksys/Cisco is/was a wholly owned subsidary of Cisco. Different QA standards, etc. For many, many years Linksys was/is at/near the top of the consistently good consumer product. With time, the profit margins in this business get smaller and smaller due to competition. Quality suffers. IMO, Netgear and D-Link were always inferior in consistent QA. Now, it seems most of these companies buy commodity designs in Asia in the "spot" market, put their logos on the box and firmware screens, and call it a product. IMO Linksys has done this to a less degree than others. Maybe no more. Don't know. I moved away from commodity consumer WiFi a couple of years ago, to Cradlepoint and am still there.

Cisco Aironet has long been their professional WiFi. It's in a division of mother Cisco. Pricy. Good. Still made. These are "Thick" products in that no central controller is needed. They're the MAC Truck equivalent of the Yugo consumer gear from Linksys and its competitors.

Cisco Airespace was an acquistion years after Aironet. This begot "thin" products that rely upon a central controller... for the Enterprise.

 

[Jamster001]

Thank you both for your replies.

Last night, I decided to hook my PS3 directly to the SB6121 modem lent to me from Time Warner Cable. I ran speedtest through the PS3 browser and as I figured it was horrible speeds. I have heard the PS3 built in speedtest is garbage but I also ran the test through my ISPs speedtest and I was getting half the speeds I pay for and the ping was pushing 110ms. But again, I believe it has something to do with the PS3's browser. Next, I decided to put in a game (MW3) into the PS3 and play some multiplayer while being directly connected to the modem. Things were going smooth during my gaming session but then out of no where, while in a game match, I was completely signed out of the PS3 network and kicked from online gameplay. Within 30 seconds I was automatically signed back into the PS3 and was able to game again. I think my ISP is failing somewhere.

After I saw the PS3 hardwired speeds, I decided to run test using my laptop. Attached are my results directly to modem (31.02 result) image, then modem to router to laptop (wired; 30.06 result)), then then modem to router to laptop (wireless; 31.01). Also, I used the closest server to my location all three test. All results are very similar to me but still I was thinking my ping would be a lot lower. Any suggestions?

Shouldn't my ping be a lot lower hardwired to modem or router?

 

[thetoad30]

Thank you both for your replies.

Last night, I decided to hook my PS3 directly to the SB6121 modem lent to me from Time Warner Cable. I ran speedtest through the PS3 browser and as I figured it was horrible speeds. I have heard the PS3 built in speedtest is garbage but I also ran the test through my ISPs speedtest and I was getting half the speeds I pay for and the ping was pushing 110ms. But again, I believe it has something to do with the PS3's browser. Next, I decided to put in a game (MW3) into the PS3 and play some multiplayer while being directly connected to the modem. Things were going smooth during my gaming session but then out of no where, while in a game match, I was completely signed out of the PS3 network and kicked from online gameplay. Within 30 seconds I was automatically signed back into the PS3 and was able to game again. I think my ISP is failing somewhere.

After I saw the PS3 hardwired speeds, I decided to run test using my laptop. Attached are my results directly to modem (31.02 result) image, then modem to router to laptop (wired; 30.06 result)), then then modem to router to laptop (wireless; 31.01). Also, I used the closest server to my location all three test. All results are very similar to me but still I was thinking my ping would be a lot lower. Any suggestions?

Shouldn't my ping be a lot lower hardwired to modem or router?

Again, ping is a result of your ISP to the end connect point, and has nothing to do with the router or modem, per se.

I'm blaming this on your ISP. Something is happening between your home and the internet. Sounds like they're either having a signal issue or they're having an equipment issue. I'd call them up and share your results.

One question I have is what kind of cable, and how long of a cable, you have between your PS3 and the modem/router?

Either way, it really sounds like this is an ISP problem. Upgrading your service won't fix this issue. 30/5 is plenty of speed for any game - hell, 6/1 is plenty of speed for an internet game. It's, as you're finding out, the latency (ping/lag) that is most important for a game, and not top-end speed.

 

[Jamster001]

Again, ping is a result of your ISP to the end connect point, and has nothing to do with the router or modem, per se.

I'm blaming this on your ISP. Something is happening between your home and the internet. Sounds like they're either having a signal issue or they're having an equipment issue. I'd call them up and share your results.

One question I have is what kind of cable, and how long of a cable, you have between your PS3 and the modem/router?

Either way, it really sounds like this is an ISP problem. Upgrading your service won't fix this issue. 30/5 is plenty of speed for any game - hell, 6/1 is plenty of speed for an internet game. It's, as you're finding out, the latency (ping/lag) that is most important for a game, and not top-end speed.

Thank for your reply.

The cable is only 3 ft. long. I have told them about latency so many times that it is just getting old. Maintenance crews, service techs, and overseas calls $uck and I'm tired of it. Unfortunately, Time Warner is the only cable company offered in my area. The only other option is DSL and I have heard to stay with cable. I will give tech support a call once again and let you all know how it turns out. Thanks again all.

 

[thetoad30]

Thank for your reply.

The cable is only 3 ft. long. I have told them about latency so many times that it is just getting old. Maintenance crews, service techs, and overseas calls $uck and I'm tired of it. Unfortunately, Time Warner is the only cable company offered in my area. The only other option is DSL and I have heard to stay with cable. I will give tech support a call once again and let you all know how it turns out. Thanks again all.

Try downloading a program called ping plotter. It will do a trace to somewhere (pick your game server you like to use) and show you where the problem is. Sometimes it's not the ISPs fault on their network, but is where they connect externally where the problem is. Sometimes it is their network.

Time Warner sucks, though. At this point, if download speed doesn't matter to you, DSL might be a better option. It gets you on a different network and that might be all it takes. DSL is usually much slower than cable, however. And depending on your distance from the central office, you may get unreliable service (kind of like how TV now "blocks" out if you have signal degradation - it's digital so you either get the bits or you don't).

What kind of cable is that 3 ft cable? It should be Cat5 at the least, with 5e preferable. Did you try to change that cable out? I hardly think it's the cable, but it's worth a shot.

Also, can you move the cable modem to a different jack in the house? Maybe there's a connection issue in the room you're in? Perhaps there's something cycling on and off in your home? Do you have central air or a window unit sitting on the same circuit or next to a cable line that is causing interference? These are all possible culprits but are also not as likely to cause these problems.

Can you game on your PCs for any length of time? If you can, then maybe the PS3 is starting to go?

Just trying to come up with something for you... I know how frustrating it can be.

 

[stevech]

ping times in the 40-80msec (that's round trip) are average, adequate. Just have to lower your expectations.

If you ping your first-hop gateway, you'll probably see 10mSec or so. The difference is the internet big-pipe carriers like Level 3 that all ISPs use.

Just a problem in expectation management!

I've had Time Warner Road Runner (So. Calif) for 10+ years. Good reliability. Good service. Too costly.
You want bad? Go with AT&T U-Verse or AT&T DSL.

We're all stuck with post-deregulation monopolies: AT&T for most locals (resold by a few remaining independent DSL providers), and whatever cable company has the granted easement from your City/County nimkapoots.

 

[tipstir]

ping times in the 40-80msec (that's round trip) are average, adequate. Just have to lower your expectations.

If you ping your first-hop gateway, you'll probably see 10mSec or so. The difference is the internet big-pipe carriers like Level 3 that all ISPs use.

Just a problem in expectation management!

I've had Time Warner Road Runner (So. Calif) for 10+ years. Good reliability. Good service. Too costly.
You want bad? Go with AT&T U-Verse or AT&T DSL.

We're all stuck with post-deregulation monopolies: AT&T for most locals (resold by a few remaining independent DSL providers), and whatever cable company has the granted easement from your City/County nimkapoots.

That's with all of them. I use to work for SBC Yahoo DSL and I'll never go back to DSL. Cable is okay for internet, still the download and upload can be hit hard if many are connected to your main junction box. I am lucky only 3x out of the 4 are connected. No body got what I have packing here.

30/5 is what I have too I would leave at that if you were planning on going the 50m route just costly to use.

 

[stevech]

"still the download and upload can be hit hard if many are connected to your main junction box."

In cable modems, it doesn't work that way. DOCSIS is the protocol used in cable modems. The downstream (to you) is time division duplexed at the cable company's head-end system. The head-end serves tens of thousands of subscribers. Multiple RF channels on the cable are used to equalize the load. This all means means that you and many others compete for time slots for you packets/frames. This is at the millions of packets/frames per second level. The grade of service you contract for affects the priority of your allocations, and the quantity of allocations. Your grade of service contract also affects the "modulation rate" (bit rate) you receive via DOCSIS 2 (or 3). They constrain these rates at layer 2 and/or layer 3 (IP layer), limit your rate to what you agreed to pay for.

On the upstream (from you), again you get allocated time for frame/packet bursts according to your contract.

In my case, I pay for middle-grade. Every single time, for years, that I run Speedtest.net to a particular 2 or 3 good nearby servers, I get the same results, irrespective of time of day. Both directions.

So the coax from your house to the cable company's demarcation point and n-way tap that they own, and way up their line from that, doesn't affect your speeds. That happens at the head end in what I talk about above. Collectively, that's called the "scheduler" in cable system head ends.

If a cable company over-subscribes its capacity (to save them capital costs), the scheduler delays for your grade of service yield lower speeds. I've not seen that in my service.

Of course, the speeds at some distant or bad servers varies widely. And we all know that some Internet Hosts are often slow, no matter the transport network performance.

This same thing happens for DSL. Different techniques though. However, with DSL, your service comes down a 50 year old pair of copper wires intended for 4KHz voice, not megabit data via complex waveforms. So the underlying speeds possible in DSL/ADSL (and U-Verse tries to be ADSL++), is limited by the antique medium.

 

[Jamster001]

Here are my final decisions....

Debating on whether to go with the newer, but twice as expensive n66u, or the higher rated (according to smallnetbuilder) and cheaper n56u.

My main concern again is better gigabit hardwired throughput using cat7 Ethernet cables. Any suggestions?

 

[stevech]

cat5 is fine for moderate lengths at gigE speeds.
cat6 is better.
maybe cat7 is overkill.

None will affect speed much, unless a cat5 is quite long.

as to WiFi routers: My habit is to not over-buy because I and many others upgrade every 2 years or so.
And I tend to avoid mass market over-sold immature products. It's so competitive in consumer WiFi that a product's bugs and flaws never get time to be corrected in rev 2, 3 before they discontinue the product. So I go with products where the firmware is largely unchanged from one product to the next. I don't think that Netgear, D-Link (esp.) and now a days, Linksys, do that any more.

 

[tipstir]

Still feel CAT5e 350MHz also called Enhanced works just as fine. I not really seeing any benefit using CAT6 except it cost more. Most of all Routers sold on the market still read they handle up to CAT5/5e. Maybe after WiFi Gigabit becomes more standard and 10 Gigabit finally makes it to the home then the need for CAT 6 should play out but might be higher Ethernet cable needed.

 

[thetoad30]

Here are my final decisions....

Debating on whether to go with the newer, but twice as expensive n66u, or the higher rated (according to smallnetbuilder) and cheaper n56u.

My main concern again is better gigabit hardwired throughput using cat7 Ethernet cables. Any suggestions?

You can try a newer router, but you really need to understand that the throughput in a gigabit switch hardly varies from one switch to the next. You're going to get 800-900 mbps through any switch accounting for overhead. Even then, your PS3 is NOT going to have a problem on a 100mbps network. Your Internet speed is the limiting factor here.

Cat7 cable is way overkill. If you're really worried that Cat5/5e is not doing the job, get a Cat6a (or Cat 6 B.2) cable and call it a day.

I just actually paid for a whole-house upgrade to Cat6a for new construction I'm building. I'm guessing in 10 years when I may/may not be selling the house, that IPTV will have taken off and 10GbE will be entering the consumer space. So Cat6a will last you 10 years before you even come close to hitting its intended speeds. Cat7 is much farther off and I see no benefit of buying that for your network.

It would be like paying $8 a gallon for 110 octane gas for your family vehicle. Great gas - totally unneeded.

 

[Jamster001]

Thank you all for your opinions. It is much appreciated.

But I still am at a loss on which model number Asus router I should go with. I see the n56u is not compatible with dd-wrt or tomato-wrt; where-as the n66u works with either firmware. For my needs (PS3, Xbox, PC gaming), should I be concerned on which router + custom firmware I should use?

Also, I only purchased the cat7 cables as they were extremely cheap; a local store was closing and had everything marked down 75%. So I couldn't pass them up. When you say "over-kill" do you mean I will be losing out compared to using a cat6 cable?

 

[stevech]

IMO, you should use only use DD-WRT or other 3rd party firmware if you want to tinker and spend quite a bit of time on this one part of your "stuff". I used DD-WRT years ago when it brought basic features missing in consumer routers. But today, it's rare that a home user needs features not in mid-range WiFi routers.
I'd also caution about ASUS routers.. they make the best motherboards, IMO, but their routers seem to be pushing the envelope on features and thus you have to be ready for more firmware bugs than with others.

I recommend focusing on RF issues: how a WiFi router + AP(s) give you great two-way coverage, in priority over features, esp. if you won't be using them.

Again, the above is IMO.

 

[tipstir]

Don't base a Router on using DD-WRT or Tomato those are mostly use on Routers that don't have full features options enabled instead of disabled by the OEM. DD-WRT can't improve on your router hardware it only taps into the extra features of the firmware you don't have access too. I don't use DD-WRT any more it can damage or shorten the life of your new Router. Just buy one of those beef-up Routers that most here are using if you want to go the Wired/Wireless Combo Deal Models. Or wait for Gigabit WiFi 802.11ac to be standard.

Those speeds test you did are just fine. If you want to more download speeds you have to pay for it. Or upgrade your Model to D3-Modem might help speed up the router WAN a bit. It's a lot of factors. Cables use or DSL lines. Everything has to be set right. Bad cables worst performance. Cables do degrade after so many years. Time to inspect them. First. Check the ends fittings for corrosion too.

Wired side on D3-modem

 

[thetoad30]

Thank you all for your opinions. It is much appreciated.

But I still am at a loss on which model number Asus router I should go with. I see the n56u is not compatible with dd-wrt or tomato-wrt; where-as the n66u works with either firmware. For my needs (PS3, Xbox, PC gaming), should I be concerned on which router + custom firmware I should use?

Also, I only purchased the cat7 cables as they were extremely cheap; a local store was closing and had everything marked down 75%. So I couldn't pass them up. When you say "over-kill" do you mean I will be losing out compared to using a cat6 cable?

Can you explain to us why you're looking at a new router? That may help us help you. If you want a true third-party firmware, I'd say go with OpenWRT. Much better than DD-WRT, and I used DD-WRT for years. Note that what stevech said rings true here - only be concerned with a router running third-party firmware if you really like to mess around with these routers. I use OpenWRT because it has VLANs, and allows me to assign static leases. I also use these firmwares because they are standard in their settings - I can change routers at will as long as they take OpenWRT, and then just copy-paste in the previous address settings. This means that if a router fails, I'm not wasting HOURS figuring out what MAC address goes to what device, and then reassigning those IPs in the DHCP server. For me, the cost of learning the software was worth it in the end. You may be totally different since all you do is game. If that's the case, I bet the regular firmware works for you.

Cat7 is actually a better cable than Cat6a. If you got them cheap, great! Normally they're much more expensive than 5e or 6a. You will not lose anything with a better cable, but you will just not gain anything really, either. About the only thing you'll get is a better signal, but even that is not helping you at gigabit speeds. It's only when you up to ten gig or even 40 gig that it starts to help out.