switch characteristics of routers vs standalone switch

[Centerfield02]

This topic covers several issues but I think it's mostly about the switch and the router needs I have, so I posted it here.

First of all, god bless this site - what a great source of info!
I'm a n00b, but I catch on fast. Any help appreciated. :->

I'm upgrading my home network due to the addition of several new devices and apps. I have a new Windows Home Server (NAS) and two desktops that I would all like to take advantage of their gigabit NICs. The Windows Home Server means there is increased Windows file traffic (copy and sharing) as well as backup (I don't exactly know what protocols the Windows Home Server "connector" client uses for those nightly backups). There is also media streaming going on. One desktop and a laptop often play music off said server and we are planning to install 2 or 3 squeezebox wireless streamers around the house. Finally, I have two HP Media Smart extender boxes, which have wireless N nics inside (don't know the chipset, does anyone?).

I am planning:
(1) to get an unmanaged switch that support jumbo frames for the 3 gigabit nic'd boxes which includes the WHS server and 2 desktops.
(2) to use my existing Netgear WRT614v6 as the router for any non-gigabit devices (a printer server appliance and one laptop right now, who knows what lesser junk later) and as a G access point for an infrequent roving laptop, our Squeezebox music devices and any guest(s).
(3) to get a wireless N device, set up as an access point, on 5GHz SOLELY for media streaming.
(I know, good luck, but I figure with this config I can try out a variety of these N devices and *if* I find one that works for my particular setup great, and if not I can try powerline or just wait for more mature N devices.)

Then,.. :->
(4) when I have found the an N device that works for me (eg the Dlink 4500), I can upgrade my router
situation by making IT the router and making the older Netgear the AP.

My questions:
(1) What are my target specs for my router? I use comcast as my ISP. I think that means I need to exceed something meager like 5MBps as the throughput up/down numbers for now. Is that a correct analysis?
(2) If I want to future proof for the best consumer connection I could get in the next couple years I'm thinking I need to bump that throughput spec up to more than .. 50? 100? (say, if I move into verizon territory and get fiber what WAN <> LAN throughput will I need).
(3) Router spec, again. I do NOT game but I could see buying an xbox at some point for the kids. Also, I use bittorrent, but maybe on the order of a couple of torrents a week and then disconnect after resharing for a day or two - not 24x7. For these apps and future proofing I have been thinking I want routers with maximum connection points of 200. Overkill?
(4) Do I really gain anything with the unmanaged gig switch? While I "find" the N device above I need a gigabit switch. But ,my question is, lets say I settle on the Dlink 4500 or the Linksys 610 - those have a gigabit switch built in. Do I gain anything by segregating the gigabit devices on their own unmanaged switch? Maybe the aility to use jumbo frames? But if the switch on the "new" router allows those and I turn off Flow control (I read that article) on any devices I can (can't on the media extenders, but those are mostly one-way which is downlink), am I compromising anything by having them all on the same switch?
(5) (How does that work anyway? Is a wireless N device "on" the same switch as a a wired gigE client on the same box? Or are the radios and the switch each their own "switch"? If it's the latter, then I'm mainly worried about"polluting" that switch with future devices I could get that would happen to be wired, but not with gigE or not with jumbo frame support.)
(6) And finally, if I did cut the switch out and used the switch on the Dlink 4500, the 855 or the Linksys 600/610, could I accomplish jumbo frame efficiency with a VLAN. Do those devices support VLANs?


I'd appreciate answers to any or all of the above. Plus, suggestions from anyone on how to do it better.

Thanks. Hope I can contribute to the site soon too.

--Mark.

 

[Osamede]

Is a wireless N device "on" the same switch as a a wired gigE client on the same box? Or are the radios and the switch each their own "switch"? If it's the latter, then I'm mainly worried about"polluting" that switch with future devices I could get that would happen to be wired, but not with gigE or not with jumbo frame support.)

I think that varies by product. For instance I have been investegating the Draytek latest models and it seems with those you can have segregate the wired and wireless traffic into separate silos which are on their own "virtual" switch.

 

[thiggins]

Hi Mark,
It's more helpful to break posts like this up into separate queries....
I'll just respond to what I think is the main thrust of your post and we can do follow-ups.

Switches handle traffic on a device-to-device level, using MAC addresses to determine the flow of traffic. Switch chips today all can handle "wire speed" connection simultaneously between client pairs on all ports. So the traffic between any pair of devices doesn't affect the speed on any other pair. You don't gain anything by uplinking to an external unmanaged switch except more ports and maybe jumbo frame support if the router switch doesn't support them.

I don't believe that VLANs do anything for throughput, not at least at the levels of traffic that you are talking about. None of the routers you mention support VLANs.

As far as router spec, all you need is something that is at least as fast as the up/down throughput of your connection. You don't sound like much of a Torrent user, so I wouldn't worry much about it. My testing has found that the Ubicom-based routers have the best simultaneous session capability. D-Link's routers are pretty much all Ubicom-based. Linksys generally uses Broadcom.

Don't worry so much about "future proofing", particularly with draft 11n gear. Get something that meets your needs now for ~$100 and be prepared to swap it out in a year or so (and turn the old one into an expansion AP/switch).

 

[Centerfield02]

So the traffic between any pair of devices doesn't affect the speed on any other pair. You don't gain anything by uplinking to an external unmanaged switch except more ports and maybe jumbo frame support if the router switch doesn't support them.

Tim, thanks for the helpful replies. When I re-read my post, it was way longer than I thought. I should have split it up.

I'm pretty clear on my router needs now.

The most important nugget I think I got from your reply was about the router's switch. Just to make sure i got it right: My gig-E devices that support jumbo frames will not be compromised by other devices on the switch that are either slower (10/100) or that don't support jumbo frames. If two gigE+jumbo devices are transferring files, even while the other devices are using the switch, they will not be compromised. Is that correct?

If so, this means I can rely on the N router I decide to get and the external switch is superflous.

Thanks again.

 

[thiggins]

The most important nugget I think I got from your reply was about the router's switch. Just to make sure i got it right: My gig-E devices that support jumbo frames will not be compromised by other devices on the switch that are either slower (10/100) or that don't support jumbo frames. If two gigE+jumbo devices are transferring files, even while the other devices are using the switch, they will not be compromised. Is that correct?

Correct. Like pairs of devices will operate to their fullest capacity. Be sure to read When Flow Control is not a Good Thing to make sure that scenario doesn't affect you.

 

[Centerfield02]

Thanks Tim. I've read that article (excellent) and I'm sure I will refer to it again when I test out the gig-E file transfers.

I picked up the WRT610N this weekend and am going to try its N performance this week.

--Mark.

 

[thiggins]

I picked up the WRT610N this weekend and am going to try its N performance this week.

You might want to read through this thread to see what others have experienced.

 

[Centerfield02]

Thanks Tim.

Fyi, so far I've had no problems with the 610N but coincidentally, I actually decided to keep the 2.4GHz radio off to start since I'm decided to use my old router (a netgear 614) as an access point. The N radio works on SD video swimmingly. No attempts for HD content yet but UPnP file browsing is noticably faster. The signal strength reported (one and three walls respectively) at the N clients isn't as strong as the G signal they are getting which surprises me a little (higher freq?) - but that's ok if the signal and lack-of-dropoff is consistent.

I plan to test throughput next as I do things like turn on jumbo frames, up the N band to 40MHz, turn on the other radio etc -- even raise the device for cooling. I dont know the tools yet - is jperf the preferred/easiest method for throughput testing on windows clients? Perfmon? Wireshark? I'm wondering how I'm going to test throughput to the media extenders since I can't install software on them..

I will try to contribute my results to that thread. One of the comments, I think rightly, mentioned that what you'd mostly see is problems and issues and not much about good installs.

Once again, you do a fantastic job on this site. Wow.

--Mark.

 

[thiggins]

Thanks for the report, Mark and the kind words about the site. We try!

Actually Netmeter is good for quick 'n dirty network throughput measurements. As for measuring throughput to media extenders, just try streaming a file from a Windows machine and run Netmeter on the machine doing the streaming. Thoughput will be the same at either end of the connection.

BTW, both of the radios in the 610N are draft 11n, one is 2.4 GHz, the other is 5 GHz. The draft 11n standard covers both bands. I pay no attention to the client or Windows Zero Config signal strength indicators when looking at wireless performance. Vendors can do all sorts of things to play with the readings. The bottom line is throughput and that's what you should concentrate on.

5GHz signals get attenuated more than 2.4GHz when passing through obstacles. So 5 GHz range is going to be less than 2.4GHz. I'm glad that your setup is working well enough for you. The fact that you are only trying to do standard def helps a lot...

 

[Centerfield02]

Yes, I know both radios can do N. Thanks for clarifying.

I'll look into Netmeter the next couple days and report back with my findings. Probably on the other thread.

BTW tim, I think I may have uncovered another hidden issue on my media extender that you will want to pass on in a more appropriate place (if I am correct) and may give something back to this community:

When reconfiguring my wireless media extenders I noticed a third network in my house - the N, G and,.. a B network called 'hpsetup'. I learned elsewhere that one of my laptops was creating it. It's a so-called "viral SSID" where my computer was trying to start an ad-hoc network, which Windows clients will do by default. I can forward you the link that explains how it gets generated and stays in your "preferred" networks list as an ad-hoc network and then the default behavior is if it can't find an access network, the windows client actually tries to "start" the old preferred ad-hoc network.

My point being that if wirless B devices interfere with wireless G and N networks, it is possible (untested by me) that such a renegade windows client could actually throttle down an otherwise clean wireless network.

Hope that is useful to you and others, if I am right.

--Mark.

 

[thiggins]

When reconfiguring my wireless media extenders I noticed a third network in my house - the N, G and,.. a B network called 'hpsetup'. I learned elsewhere that one of my laptops was creating it. It's a so-called "viral SSID" where my computer was trying to start an ad-hoc network, which Windows clients will do by default.

Good catch and not something that I think about since I have my Windows machines set to not create these.

They shouldn't reduce draft 11n performance, however. Clients that are not generating regular traffic don't cause problems. "Legacy" (B/G) networks have to be passing traffic simultaneously with draft 11n networks to cause degradation. A client looking to form an Ad-Hoc network won't cause degradation. Not good from a security point of view, though, so it's best to disable this (Wireless Network Adapter Properties > Wireless Networks Tab > Advanced button and set Networks to Access to "Access Point (Infrastructure) networks only").