Tapping into the collective knowledge

[Grahamu]

Tapping into the collective knowledge (newbie needs help)

Hi,

I’m hoping I can pick on the collective experience of members here to help this newbie get on the right track with my first NAS.

Here is a bit of background on myself:

1. I’ve worked all my life in the IT industry so I am technically aware although I am now retired and for the preceding 10 years I was in management roles and so I have not been involved ‘hands on’. Therefore, although I am technically aware, I would still prefer a solution that is easy to manage.
2. My philosophy is that I would prefer to pay a bit extra for ‘quality’ rather than necessarily go for the cheapest solution available. However, that doesn’t mean that cost is no object; as I said, I am retired.

My current home computing comprises of the following:

• I have a Win Vista based desktop PC that is about 3 years old. It has 2 x 250Gb internal disks that are set up as RAID 1. I did this because at the time I bought the PC my storage requirements were quite small so I thought it worthwhile having the RAID protection.
• However, my 250Gb is now almost full (primarily photos, music and documents) so I need additional storage one way or another.
• I intend to upgrade this machine to 64 bit Windows 7 shortly and, as this will require a complete disk wipe, it would seem sensible to address my storage requirements beforehand.
• I have a 300Gb USB external disk that I use for full/incremental backups of this machine.
• I also have an old Win XP laptop that I use for business purposes. This machine is not backed up at all. This definitely should be backed up.
• The last machine is another oldish Win XP laptop that my wife uses primarily for email etc. Again this machine is not backed up at all. This should be done.

I have done a lot of reading on here, in particular the debate around RAID versus non-RAID and the vulnerability of RAID machines should a NAS controller fail which I had not thought about before. I can see a number of different approaches I could take with various pros and cons and questions as follows.

Option 1 – 2 NASs

• Buy 2 x dual 1Tb NASs and set one up as RAID 1 and the other as JBOD.
• Move all of my photos, music and possibly documents to the 1Tb available space on the RAID 1 NAS
• Use the 2Tb on the JBOD NAS for backup of all three machines.
• Comments:
o The second backup NAS could just be a single 2Tb drive machine to reduce cost.
o The first storage NAS could also be a single drive to reduce cost although I would lose RAID 1 protection

Option 2 – 1 x NAS and backup disk

• Buy 1x dual 1Tb NAS and set it up as RAID 1. Buy a 2Tb USB disk and plug into the back of the NAS.
• Move all of my photos, music and possibly documents to the 1Tb available space on the RAID 1 NAS.
• Use the 2Tb USB disk in the back of the NAS for the backup of all three machines.
• Comments:
o The first storage NAS could also be a single drive to reduce cost although I would lose RAID 1 protection

Option 3 – 1 x NAS and remove RAID from desktop PC

• Buy 1x 2Tb NAS.
• Remove the RAID 1 set up from the main desktop PC freeing up the second 250Gb disk and move all of my photos, music and possibly documents to the 250Gb available space on the internal disk.
• Use the 2Tb on the NAS for backup of all three machines.
• Comments:
o I have no RAID 1 protection at all now.
o Media/documents would not be available to other machines on the network.
o The additional 250Gb available for media/documents will still only have a limited life at which time I will need a different solution.

I have some questions re the above that I would welcome some advice on:

1. All Options – Does it make sense to move documents to a NAS or to keep them on the main desktop machine?
2. Option 2 – Is a USB disk attached to the back of a NAS still available to backup any PC on the network or just the NAS it is attached to?
3. Option 2 – Is a USB disk attached to the back of a NAS still dependent on the NAS controller (as per the comments re the weakness of RAID 1 disks having a common point of failure) or can the USB disk be unplugged from the NAS, plugged into a PC and accessed by that PC?
4. Option 3 – Would there be significant performance benefits of having my media/documents on the internal desktop drive rather than the NAS?

I would welcome any feedback, comments, questions to help me get off on the right foot.

Many thanks in anticipation of your help,
Graham

 

[Chunkers]

Graham,

I would like to start by saying it looks like you know more about this than i do! I have a similar 'Advice required' thread further down the list. In the absence of expert comment, it might be interesting to compare ideas as we have a similar kind of requirement.

Our main PC currently has a RAID 1 fitted for data security (photos and videos being the main worry here). My plan will be to have a NAS passively replicating the critical data on this RAID and possibly running a few other services (Media server) and located in a different part of the house out of the way (we had a house fire not too long ago, a learning experience)

I am still pondering our approach but currently I think we will begin with a single drive in a NAS, I currently favour the Synology DS210j or DS211j. In the fullness of time I plan to upgrade with a second drive (and RAID) in the NAS. Given that the PC already has the additional security of a RAID I don't see a tremendous rush to do this.

I like this approach because it means that the NAS is transparent/invisible to the rest of the users in my house and they don't need to know about it / fiddle with it! As far as they are concerned, the RAID on our primary PC is where we keep stuff for secure storage and the NAS silently and invisibly keeps a backup.

This ends up looking a bit like a combination of your (2) and (3) I suppose.

I think the caution about RAID cards failing is a a wise one but personally I think the risk of data loss via this route is probably relatively low provided the RAID uses a disk format which can read by another PC. I am more concerned about HD failure, something which I think we have probably all encountered.

Good luck with your research, look forward to reading about your conclusions

Chunks

 

[Grahamu]

Hi Chunks,

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I must admit I was hoping to get some advice which doesn't seem to have materialized. Not sure if it is that people are just too busy, don't know the answers, or perhaps this isn't the right site to look for help on. I have started to look and see if there are other more active forums around the web.

It does sound as if our requirements are similar'ish in that we are both starting from a core RAID 1 base of key media/documents and looking for a NAS to go with it. The primary difference (please correct me if I am wrong) seems to be that you are looking for a backup of that information whereas I am physically running out of room on my RAID storage.

One question I have about your set up is how does everyone access your media on the main PC. Does everyone use the PC when they need to access it or do you use Windows to share access to it? I see one of the advantages of moving all of our 'stuff' onto a NAS of being easier access.

The challenge I have is that more I think about it the more different options I come up with.

One other option I came up with is to replace the pair of 250Gb disks on my PC RAID with a pair of bigger disks. This would then put me into a similar situation to you in that all I would be looking for would be a network wide backup solution. The downside to me of this approach is that my PC is likely to have to be replaced by a newer model within the next year or so so this would be a temporary solution anyway. Having my media/documents on a separate 'box' seems a more intuitive solution since, if I purchase a quality, new enough, big enough, powerful enough NAS then this is likely to last several PC exchanges.

Your comment re a house fire is something that has also got me thinking. My backup USB disk is kept in the same house; right next to the PC being backed up in fact, so there is not much security in that. This has got me thinking more and more about using web based backup services. I know there is an ongoing cost of this but when you offset the cost of purchasing a backup disk/NAS and the additional security it might be worthwhile. We have to remember that this 'body' of media/documents is only going to grow and (particularly that of a personal/family nature) become even more 'priceless' as time goes on.

Finally, re the potential choice of a NAS. My own philosophy of looking for leading edge, not bleeding edge, solutions, that are good quality and good value for money has also led me towards Synology at this point in time. I too was looking at something like DS110J or the new DS111J version although I don't think the latter is quite here in Canada yet.

Not sure if I have added to the discussion at all but at least it keeps our questions at the top of the list of threads!!!!

Cheers,
Graham

 

[teknojnky]

I would say option 1 (2 nas) would be the better/safer choice.

I would (and have personally) definately start centralizing documents/images and other important files.

Centralizing them on a nas by itself even with raid, is not a backup.

You should also take care to backup the important stuff to the 2nd nas.

Ideally you should have at least 2 copies of anything you consider important on separate devices/computers.

For small files this is pretty easy, and you can even look in to 'cloud' services which offer a gig or more for free as third backup.

With media files such as large librarys of video/audio/pictures, it comes down to something like a dual nas where there is one primary which is backed up to a secondary one hourly/nightly (or at whatever interval your comfortable with).

I have 3 readynas devices, one contains video, other audio and other stuff, and the 3rd pulls the most important stuff from the first 2 devices on an automated backup job.

 

[Grahamu]

Thanks for the feedback/suggestions teknojnky, very much appreciated.

What you say ties in with my 'gut feel'. Given that two NASs, one with the data on and one being a backup are the best approach, what is your feeling re RAID in that scenario; is it something worth doing for the added level of security (quick recovery in the event of a single disk failure) or overkill? Perhaps RAID on the storage NAS but not on the backup NAS? That would impact whether I were to go for 2 x single drive NASs, 2 x dual drive NASs, or 1 of each.

Cheers,
Graham

 

[ntm1275]

I use two NAS's, both Synology

One is used as the main server, where ALL files are stored - I have modified the My Documents folder path on each PC/Laptop so that the target is on the NAS
This means that I don't have to do separate backups or copying of files to the NAS
Saving to the My Documents folder automatically saves them to the NAS
This does mean though, that the NAS has to be on when any PC/Laptop is booted up - this may mean it being left on 24/7, or at least set up to power on at a time when people will be in the house

The second NAS is used solely as a backup device for the first NAS
This NAS is hidden in my garage (about 30 feet from the main house), so that if there is a problem with Fire/Theft/Water damage to the first NAS, the second NAS is not going to be affected

Another option that can be done with the second NAS is to make a full backup with it connected to your internal network, and then move it to an external premises (something like friends or parents house), and do an incremental backup from then on, so saving on that initial massive transfer of data over the internet (a lot of ISP's have limits on the amount of data that can be downloaded/uploaded per month - unless the broadband plan is 'Unlimited' or has an unmetered Off-Peak time for the backup to take place)

As already mentioned Raid 1 is not a backup solution, it provides a level of redundancy is case one disk fails, and while you are waiting for the new drive to arrive, the data is still accessible from the working drive
When the new drive is installed it will automatically rebuild the Raid 1 array

 

[ntm1275]

Thanks for the feedback/suggestions teknojnky, very much appreciated.

What you say ties in with my 'gut feel'. Given that two NASs, one with the data on and one being a backup are the best approach, what is your feeling re RAID in that scenario; is it something worth doing for the added level of security (quick recovery in the event of a single disk failure) or overkill? Perhaps RAID on the storage NAS but not on the backup NAS? That would impact whether I were to go for 2 x single drive NASs, 2 x dual drive NASs, or 1 of each.

Cheers,
Graham

It would depend on how critical it is for the first NAS to be constantly running with your data available at all times
Could you do without it for a couple of days while a new drive was being delivered?
For a home set up that is only storing video, photos and a few personal document, then those couple of days may not be a great deal, but for a Work set up, a couple of days may very well be too long to wait, so a Raid 1 set up would probably be needed to keep everything up and running

 

[Grahamu]

Thanks for both posts ntm1275, once again very useful input.

I like the idea of the remote NAS in the garage to provide an additional level of security.

Your points re deciding on how long I could be without access is a very good one. For me I think the answer is, it varies. Photos, music and other media I could certainly do without for a few days. Some of my documents however I use every day.

Since my main PC is already set up as RAID 1 this already provides me with contingency against a single disk failure for my system as a whole. I am therefore leaning towards just moving my media off of PC onto a non-RAID but frequently backed up NAS and leaving my documents (which are smaller in size) on my main PC. This will let me have the added security against failure of the RAID 1 plus probably faster access to the documents as well.

It will mean that I will need to backup up both the NAS plus my documents (and the other laptops in the house) to the second non-RAID NAS.

Interestingly, I was looking at the new 2011 Synology NAS's. I was thinking that rather than a couple of DS211Js that I could save money and go for a couple of DS111Js. However, from what I have seen these don't seem to exist (yet?). The only single disk versions seem to be the faster DS111s which are about the same price as the DS211Js.

Guess the decision will therefore be do I go for slower dual drive DS211Js or faster single drive DS111s.

Cheers,
Graham

 

[teknojnky]

I would consider heavily that, if your primary device fails/loses data, and you are running from or restoring from your backup device... then your backup device fails... I would want a minimum of raid 1 for each device/storage unit.

Of course that means additional expense in both drives and device, but consider how valuable your time and/or data is.

Also personally I would never consider a dual drive/raid 1 device, simply on lost disk/space efficiency compared to 4 drive device (only 1 drive space is lost), but again there is additional cost in that too.

dual drive: 500 x2 = 500 space
4 drive: 500 x4 = ~1500 space

another thing you might consider, get something new and modern for the primary device, but for the backup device is to look for an older/used model on craigslist/ebay/etc.

for example, and readynas ultra 4 (primary), and the older nv+ (backup) make a good pair.

 

[Grahamu]

Thanks again teknojnky...more to mull over...

Good idea re combining a newer main NAS with an older technology backup NAS; definitely worth thinking about.

Also, interesting idea re 2 disk versus 4 disk RAID. I had been leaning towards RAID 1 because my storage requirements aren't huge and I (possibly wrongly) assumed that the cost difference between a more expensive 4 drive NAS and 4 disks would be a lot more than a 2 disk NAS and 2 disks. However, if I can make do with smaller disks in the 4 disk solution the difference may not be so great. I should probably crunch some numbers on such as:

2 bay NAS plus 2 x 1Tb disks (1Tb usable)
versus
4 bay NAS plus 4 x 500Gb disks (1.5Tb usable)

I think i would still be inclined to only use RAID on the main unit and not bother with it on the backup NAS.

Cheers,
Graham

 

[ntm1275]

Another couple of options which I explored was to have:-

Main NAS in Raid 1, with 1 large USB backup drive connected with removable drive trays, and to alternate the backup to each drive by just pulling out one drive and replacing it with the next drive
The drive not being use can then be stored off site in case of theft/fire etc

or

Main NAS is Raid 1, with two large non removable USB drives, and to alternate between the two units, and storing the non current drive off site for safety

but I like teknojnky's option of getting an older used (cheaper) second NAS, which is effectively what I have done by buying a new main NAS and then using the old 'main' NAS as the backup drive

I originally bought a Synology 1 bay DS106e with an external USB drive for backup
then upgraded to a Synology 2 bay DS207+, and used the old DS106e as the backup drive
then upgraded to a Synology 2 bay DS209+II, and used the old DS207+ as the backup drive
and finally upgraded to my current main NAS of a Synology 5 bay DS1010+, and used the old DS209+II as the backup drive

 

[kamina]

I'm working on something similar, and here is my reasoning:

- One fast NAS which will hold the data, does not need RAID because I can live with a bit of downtime (and the files should always be accessible from backups)
- Another slow (well, cheap) NAS slave for remote replication. Again RAID is not needed, I could just access the other if one fails.
- External disk that has backups from the NAS slave.

Now for me, more important then raid (no downtime in case of disk failure) is having backups of several points in time. Rsync which most NAS devices use for backups will keep things synced, but if you accidentally delete (or corrupt) a file you will be out of luck once you sync that change everywhere. So either the slave NAS or the external disk has to be larger, and I use something like rsnapshot to keep several snapshots of the backups on it.

Apart from this, I burn the most important documents and photos on dvd's (only really important things for me), and keep a copy of them at my office "off site".

My current set up is not that different, now I just have data all over the place and everything is backing up to a local external disk. It's quite a hassle to manage.

 

[teknojnky]

yea, managing backups and multiple backups gets worse the more you got, especially if/when you start to exceed the capacity of a single drive (ie 2tb until the 3tb drives start arriving in force).

solutions like dropbox, mozy, readynas vault, etc all can simplify things by storing important stuff in the cloud, but have varying levels of cost and are also dependent on your internet speed/bandwidth.

as time marches on, I fear that our storage needs will continue to out-spiral cost- and time-effective storage/backup solutions.

 

[Grahamu]

Thank you (again) for all the ideas/suggestions. I am sure with all of this input I will now be able to price up some different options and come up with a solution that fits my needs/budget. I guess I am probably more fortunate than a lot of people in that most of my media items are photos and music and not video so I don't have a storage demand that is growing too fast.

I must admit that one thing I like about my current simple method of backing up the RAID drives on my PC to a USB disk is that I do always have the option of restoring accidentally deleted files. My method is pretty crude with an initial full backup and then incremental backups until the disk is full. I then wipe the disk and start all over again. Obviously a far better route would be to have 2-3 USB disks and fill them alternatively.

If I move to a 2-4 disk RAID NAS as my main media storage and either a cheaper NAS or USB disks for my backup I would definitely still want to maintain this ability to restore deleted files for some period of time, even if it is only a week or two.

One further question. If I was to use USB disks attached to the back of a NAS for backup, am I able to physically remove these, plug them into a PC and access the information stored on them or must they be accessed via the NAS controller?

Again, I'll crunch the $$$ for some options and look to make some purchases, hopefully with some savings as we move into sale time over the next month or two.

Cheers,
Graham

 

[ntm1275]

One further question. If I was to use USB disks attached to the back of a NAS for backup, am I able to physically remove these, plug them into a PC and access the information stored on them or must they be accessed via the NAS controller?

As a Synology user, I can format the USB drives as Ext, FAT32 or NTFS, but I assume that most NAS's will format to these same file formats

So if you have a Windows PC, then the FAT32 and NTFS formats will definitely be able to be read
With the Ext format, you will probably have to install an Ext reader software
If using Linux, then I think it can read all three, but I am not sure about this

 

[Grahamu]

Excellent, thanks ntm1275, answers my question perfectly.

Cheers,
Graham