two-storey double brick internal walls - mesh?

[FunkyChicken]

Hey All,
I hope you can help solve my selection dilemma.
It's an old house and build solid. Double brick walls both externally and internally too (best guess based on wall thickness). Two storey. Floors are pretty solid.

Descriptions below are based on attached floor plan.
Red is upstairs, black is downstairs (downstairs extends further out than upstairs, red dotted line shows the edge of the upstairs).



Fibre comes into the house at the top right of the upper level, with an ethernet jack provided from the internal connection box. (This can't be moved).
This is the current location of our office, and the location of our existing router (BiPAC 7800VDPX) which has served us well for the quite a number of years on both ADSL and fibre.

Directly below the office is the kitchen (room with green squiggles). There are two induction microwaves in here, which cause a significant amount of interference when in use. One is brand new, the other is older but has been tested for leaks, so they are safe for people, but not for 2.4GHz wifi.

As a result of this, 2.4GHz wifi in the family room (bottom left - downstairs) drops out whenever something is heated up. 5GHz wifi will connect, but due to a lot of brick walls, is pretty much unusable.

Initially this was manageable, but now a combination of the two microwaves, and a router that just seems to be failing more and more on its own, it's time for an upgrade.

Given the house now has the ethernet connection to WAN, I luckily no longer need to worry about ADSL modems, and bridging etc, just IPoE.

As far as networked devices are concerned
Wired devices:
PCx2 direct
Multifunction centre
PC via powerline ethernet (Belkin F5D4077v1) to second office in bottom left of upstairs. - Wifi also struggles here, again due to lots of brick walls.

Wireless Devices:
Smart TV (2019 model LG)
Wifi enabled PVR (old)
AppleTV 4K
iPad x3 (various ages)
iPhone x3 (various ages)
Laptop x2 (various ages)
Other random devices as needed.

We've thought about cabling the house with ethernet, but the cost is prohibitive even for a single drop from upstairs to downstairs (legal regulations in Australia).

I've also considered swapping out my Belkin powerline adapters for some more modern homeplug system and using that as a backhaul, but I've read somewhere they aren't reliable. Is this the case?

So it's back to wifi only, meaning we either need to look at a single router that can provide the necessary coverage (and stronger 5GHz signal), or some form of wireless backhaul mesh system.

I was looking at the Asus RT-AX92U two pack, because of the dedicated 5GHz backhaul. I was going to keep the primary one in the office where the existing router is, and place the other at the top left of the downstairs. This should minimise the distance the 5GHz backhaul needs to travel through brick walls, and also allow pretty much line of sight for both the 2.4GHz network and the 5GHz network.

I've seen the 58U and 88U mentioned here as alternatives, but the problem is that if a single one of those doesn't work reliably, it will be forking out for another ai-mesh compatible router, and if I'm reading things right, sacrificing my 5GHz network to backhaul. I'm in Australia so we already pay inflated prices for electronic gear.


Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[thiggins]

If powerline has worked for you well, then why not try upgrading to an AV2 version for backhaul? It's been a long while since I tested powerline, but the ones I did test are ranked here.

If you go for 5 GHz backhaul, then you definitely want to use four streams to provide extra signal gain.

 

[Trip]

Powerline is less of a universally bad idea than it is simply a victim of low operational certainty: it may work right away, or not at all, or start off working but then degrade over time, or at random. It's impossible to predict, so trial-and-error is really the only want to know. Since they appear to work well enough in your case, upgrading to faster adapters may be your best bet for a wired backbone.

Regarding your choice of wireless gear, if you go with consumer kit, I would avoid Asus AiMesh unless you're sure you can use wired backhaul. It's code base is simply not as optimized or as bug-fixed for pure wireless mesh as something more purpose-built, such as Netgear Orbi RBK50 or Eero Pro. Per Tim's suggestion, RBK50 does have the advantage of 4x4 5Ghz backhaul, and even though it lacks Eero's airspace intelligence, real-time radio re-purposing and SQM, the extra gain from 4x4 may more than makeup for those other shortcomings. With either system, they offer a "bridge mode", which essentially makes them act only as wireless APs, allowing you to keep your Billion router in play, should you not want to upset that piece of your network.

That said, if you can establish reliable-enough wired backhaul with new powerline adapters and can wire in all (or mostly all) APs, you may want to consider moving above/beyond consumer wireless gear with something like TP-Link Omada. Two or three EAP245's or EAP225's plus an OC200 controller would allow for way more customized usage of fronthaul channels, as well as better seamless roaming of clients from AP to AP, and also powering by PoE, which would be especially slick if you were to combine with something like a PoE powerline adapter like a Comtrend PG-9172PoE, which could serve dual purpose as both a powerline adapter and gigabit PoE injector in a single unit. Beware, though, that adapter uses the G.hn powerline standard, which is not compatible with AV2, and you want all adapters to be using the same standard.

Hope you like some of those thoughts; happy to expand if desired.

 

[FunkyChicken]

Thanks for the replies

As far as keeping my existing Billion, I'd very much like to get rid of it if I can.

Given your responses, a powerline ethernet backbone might actually be a suitable solution. It's definitely something that I will take another look at.

I do like the idea of moving to a PoE based control+endpoints system, but I think that will need to wait for the moment. The main issue with the Comtrend (and Trendnet's version) devices are the lack of Australian plugs, meaning either using plug adapters, or getting an Australian plugged powerline system plus separate injectors, both of which would end up turning a nice slim system into something quite bulky. I suppose it would be ok if the access points could just sit on a shelf or something though.

If I choose to forego the EoP style and just go with the powerline backbone, would a set of AI-mesh units be the most suitable or is there something else that is generally well regarded. Since I'd have a hardwired backbone, I'd obviously be able to have cheaper units that don't have the extra features that would only be used for a 5GHz mesh.
I've had a look at the various comparisons, but I generally see the same features on everything and mixed reviews on everything. So I get lost. Gone are the days when each brand only had 3 models.

As far as configuration goes, I'd prefer a decent web interface rather than relying on an limited features app. I'm also happy to load on custom firmware such as merlin or open-wrt (I assume open-wrt is still used) if that will enhance the experience for a specific brand.

 

[Trip]

Understood on moving on from the Billion. Should be easy enough to do, whether that be AiMesh, a whole-house mesh product or otherwise.

Re- powerline, good on you for bringing up the plug issue. I would probably go with an Australia-plugged product versus fitting an Aussie plug adapter on a North American alternative. Firsthand experience has shown me that powerline, if it's going to work at all, really likes to be directly connected to the wall outlet, with as few wall taps, power strips, extension cords, even just plug adapter/converters in the mix as possible -- preferably none. Even if you can't get an Australian-specific product that combines PoE and powerline into a single unit, the extra wall plug for the access point isn't the end of the world, as kludgy as the whole ensemble may seem.

Looking at wifi, switching and routing hardware overall, I tend to lean towards purpose-built, discrete-components myself (usually small business grade or better). You tend to get a more robust network all the way around. With wired backhaul especially, I'd be apt to go that route. For pure-wireless backhaul, though, a tri-band whole-house product would probably stand the best chance of something that "just works" -- Orbi RBK50, Eero Pro or similar.

Regarding AiMesh over a wired backbone, there's a decent amount of supporting evidence on SNB that it performs well enough for most folks. I'll rope in @OzarkEdge and @L&LD for their thoughts, as I believe both have run and/or still run AiMesh and have good observations on it.

 

[Callinc]

Do you have any coaxial cable in the walls? MoCA adapters might be a better option for a wired backhaul. If you can do that you could look into the UniFi dream machine and another AP. The UniFi dream machine appears to sit somewhere between a full commercial deployment and their amplifi consumer equipment. In any case (givin your situation/building) I’d strongly recommend you look into some sort of wired backhaul just to have some stability.


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[FunkyChicken]

No coax unfortunately. We do have unused PSTN wiring, but I'd have to check what grade of cable it is, since the connectors are just RJ11.

 

[FunkyChicken]

Ok, I've confirmed that the PSTN wiring is an older style, and so not suitable.

I've had discussions with the other people in the house, and we are inclined to go with the option of using a powerline ethernet backbone with some separate PoE injectors. This would entail something like the TPLink TL-PA9020P with an appropriate PoE injector plugged into it to power the access points.

I like the concept of the UniFi Dream Machine + extra AP. However the cost starts racking up, especially if I go with the FlexHD so I can have it free standing rather than having to mount it. The Omada appears cheaper (which would be nice), but appears to require a lot more effort to get in place, and extra devices.

It's hard shifting the mindset from cheap consumer product prices to the next levels up.

 

[Callinc]

Yea I understand completely. It’s a tough call deciding what the right balance is between cost and ease of use. I can tell you from a simply cost point of view you can use any two wireless routers and “make them work” but it won’t be as simple and solid as a more purpose built setup. If you have access to old hardware I’d try two old routers for now. Set one as the primary (doing the dhcp and main routing) and then you just need to buy the power line adapters. Set the second AP up and give it the same ssid and password and it should work just fine. Make sure you use different channels and you might be ok for a good while.

Just an extra example on why I’m ok paying a bit more for better hardware (once I can afford it): at work I had a setup similar to what I’m describing. It’s a home office approximately 4,000 sqft. The office is in the lowest level (~1000 sqft) and we have hard wiring throughout. The main floor doesn’t have any Ethernet ports anywhere. Finally the second floor (3rd if you count the basement/office as floor 1) has a single wall port. Anyway, this was my perfect storm. It’s never ideal for clients to be traped between to WiFi access points like that. Anyway, the old wireless router I had made a perfect second access point up in loft area of that third floor but I started getting complaints that the WiFi was “terrible”. I’d look and see everything was fine and the device was functioning normal. Do a reboot blah blah nothing happens and so I think all is good until the complaints again. So I decided to hell with it and got a UniFi AP. Well wouldn’t you know it started sending me emails periodically saying it lost the network. I could now look at the device page and see it has been on for ~35 days so I know it wasn’t power or someone in unplugging it. Now I was able to pinpoint my problem was the 5 port switch that was in the attic. I removed it from the equation and the AP has been solid since.

The moral of my long typed story is sometimes the value of your time could be worth it for the added information you can get from better equipment. Your mileage may vary but that’s just what I ran into. I now know that personally I prioritize equipment with decent logging abilities and a way of sending notifications. The headache of trouble shooting some of this stuff is worth it for me. Just something to keep in mind when you plot your course for your desired network. I did everything in baby steps as cost was a major issue. I also didn’t know what I was missing. Moving from Netgear’s terrible UI web page to UniFi was like someone making the blind see.


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[cplay]

Understood on moving on from the Billion. Should be easy enough to do, whether that be AiMesh, a whole-house mesh product or otherwise.

Re- powerline, good on you for bringing up the plug issue. I would probably go with an Australia-plugged product versus fitting an Aussie plug adapter on a North American alternative. Firsthand experience has shown me that powerline, if it's going to work at all, really likes to be directly connected to the wall outlet, with as few wall taps, power strips, extension cords, even just plug adapter/converters in the mix as possible -- preferably none. Even if you can't get an Australian-specific product that combines PoE and powerline into a single unit, the extra wall plug for the access point isn't the end of the world, as kludgy as the whole ensemble may seem.

Looking at wifi, switching and routing hardware overall, I tend to lean towards purpose-built, discrete-components myself (usually small business grade or better). You tend to get a more robust network all the way around. With wired backhaul especially, I'd be apt to go that route. For pure-wireless backhaul, though, a tri-band whole-house product would probably stand the best chance of something that "just works" -- Orbi RBK50, Eero Pro or similar.

Regarding AiMesh over a wired backbone, there's a decent amount of supporting evidence on SNB that it performs well enough for most folks. I'll rope in @OzarkEdge and @L&LD for their thoughts, as I believe both have run and/or still run AiMesh and have good observations on it.

So accurate.

My UK powerlines in France with UK/EU adapter have worse performance than the same model but french variant without an adapter. Complete pain in the arse!

 

[FunkyChicken]

So based on all the advice so far, I'm thinking something like the attached UniFi setup with a DreamMachine and FlexHDs.
Number of FlexHD units beyond the first one will depend on signal strength in other parts of the house.
It also looks like the FlexHD comes with a PoE injector which should save some money (and hassle).

Is there anything that I've missed?

 

[Trip]

The UDM and UDM Pro will be nice, yes, but stability is still suspect. Previous to the most recent UDM firmware update, there was still a bug that would randomly clear the entire MAC table (!!!). Not sure how much QA/QC they have left to do before they're truly production-ready, but you may want to do a bit more due diligence there before purchase. Otherwise, a USG (if you can get away with lower throughput) plus another FlexHD is roughly the same cost (at least here in the States), and if you could just run the controller on an always-on PC or Raspberry Pi if you didn't want to spend extra on a CloudKey Gen2.

Other than that, I think your plan looks decent. Those Broadcom-based TP-Link adapters look good. If performance is way lower than expected, you might want to try a Qualcomm-based product to compare, keep the winner, return the loser.

 

[Callinc]

Looks like an ideal setup to me. It’s about the cleanest you could get that will provide maximum visibility into your network if there is a problem. I can see now why this is going to be a costly build out for you. I think I’d deal with cheap hardware for awhile before shelling out that kind of money all at once.

As @Trip said, you could run the controller on a pi or an always on machine but that does move you into the full enterprise type setup. I can’t speak for the software on the dream machine but the full controller software is great. Definitely do some due diligence with your reviews. I’d hope the dream machine software is patched ASAP but who knows. It is a relatively new product line.


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[FunkyChicken]

Thanks Trip and Callinc.
I'm actually thinking of dropping back from the FlexHD APs to the AC-LITE. Looking at the specs, we don't really need the extra throughput within the network at this stage, and the AC-LITE is more than capable of saturating our WAN bandwidth. Just doing that will save a significant amount. I would then just get a chunk of wood and mount the AP on that put it on a shelf or something.

In terms of the UDM itself, I'm having a look at various reviews at the moment. Very vocal on both sides. Looks like I'm going to have to put some serious thought into whether to go to the USG+extra devices. Given the costs it's not really something I want to get wrong.

 

[Trip]

Re- the USG/UDM dilemma, a cheap workaround for now would be a $60 EdgeRouter X. You'd have to configure and manage separately, but there is a ton material on YouTube and UI's own KBs, so it shouldn't be that hard. And EdgeOS 1.10.x is rock-solid at this point. Plus the ER-X is a fair bit more powerful than the USG, enough for 150-200Mb/s of Smart Queue QoS. And at only $60, hardly any technical debt to deal with if/when it comes time to upgrade. By that time a next-gen USG may make more sense than a UDM, as you'd already have the other pieces running discretely. On that note, you'd still have to pick a controller solution, but you could at least get up and running via the smartphone app as well.

 

[Callinc]

Keep in mind that the edge router line doesn’t integrate with the controller software at all. Not a huge deal but it makes a single interface not possible like if you go with a udm or usg. I personally wouldn’t do an edge router x as it’s very underpowered. I think an 11 year old router might not be the most future proof for updates.

I have an er-3 lite that I got used for $60 and kinda regret that purchase. If I enable dpi throughput drops drastically and I can’t reach the internet speeds I pay for.

If I got a redo I’d do a udm with the bet that ubiquity will spend the time and effort to keep polishing this line.


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[Trip]

Keep in mind that the edge router line doesn’t integrate with the controller software at all. Not a huge deal but it makes a single interface not possible like if you go with a udm or usg. I personally wouldn’t do an edge router x as it’s very underpowered. I think an 11 year old router might not be the most future proof for updates.

The ER-X is not 11 years old, it's 5 years old (since release). The architecture may be 11 years old, but production-release in this class of devices always lags a few years behind the original chipset dates. Regardless, Ubiquiti will continue updating it for some time to come on the 2.x firmware train, at least until @FunkyChicken's next upgrade in a year or two's time. And regarding power, as with anything, this is about right-sizing for the use-case at hand. While the ER-X may be "very underpowered" for you, it could very well be powerful enough for the OP, especially since he acknowledge a plain old USG may also be workable.

I have an er-3 lite that I got used for $60 and kinda regret that purchase. If I enable dpi throughput drops drastically and I can’t reach the internet speeds I pay for.

An ERL has little place in comparison here, at least for software-routing, where it's roughly 50-75% less powerful.

If I got a redo I’d do a udm with the bet that ubiquity will spend the time and effort to keep polishing this line.

I'm actually apt to agree, provided the OP realizes it may be some time to get the bugs worked out. Maybe he just rolls the dice and pulls the trigger. Otherwise, I maintain the ER-X would be a fine interim solution for this use-case. To each their own, though.

 

[Callinc]

The ER-X is not 11 years old, it's 5 years old (since release). The architecture design may be 11 years old, production-released hardware in this class of devices always lags a few years behind the original chipset release dates. Regardless, Ubiquiti will be supporting it for some time to come, at least until @FunkyChicken's next upgrade, both on the 1.x (security) and 2.x (features) firmware trains. And regarding power, as with anything, this is about right-sizing for the use-case at hand. While the ER-X may be "very underpowered" for you, it's likely good enough OP, for now at least, especially since he acknowledge even the less powerful USG may suffice. Yes, an ER-4 or ER-12 would be more powerful, but at ~$150 less, the ER-X represents a better value as an interim solution.Not to sound harsh, but relating your regrets over a ERL has really very little to do with the issue at hand here. The ER-X is roughly 75% more powerful, and would likely suit the OP just fine.I'm actually apt to agree. It's just that for the meantime, if the OP doesn't want to gamble on how well they can execute and how soon, a $60 ER-X isn't all that much to ensure a rock-solid gateway.

Trip- Upon further review I believe you are correct. ER-X is only 6 years old. I looked quick and of course amazon had that listed incorrect.


But x vs er-3 I’m not sure your right about it being a faster unit. https://www.mbreviews.com/ubiquiti-edgerouter-x-review/

I never commented on your recommendation for the usg but I didn’t think that was a good idea because of speed. The OP never gave us anything about speed but I made an assumption based on fiber coming into their house and then having a home office. In my mind I ruled out the usg, er-x, er-3 lite, and possible the er-4. Like you said, the er-4 really starts getting pricey for a home use situation where you still then need a controller for the APs anyway.

By no means do I take any of your comments as harsh. I’m relatively new here but it seems like a great place to ask questions and get a mixture of reviews and opinions. It is my hope that our back and forth comments help the OP make an informed decision. If nothing else we covered all the options and touched on the pros and cons of each. For more information they can do some deeper digging on the issues that matter most to them.


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[Trip]

Yes, no worries. I rather like the back and forth, too, as I think it helps the OP and others to make a better decision as well.

Regarding the ERL vs the ER-X, it depends on the services being run. For just plain NAT, with offload active and no software-based services running that would break offload, the ERL is faster, as it can actually do 1Gb/s full-duplex from interface to interface. The ER-X is capped at 1Gb/s simplex, due to lane limitations on its board. But the moment you turn on anything that requires software routing via the CPU, including VPN or QoS, the ER-X is roughly twice as powerful. For lower-speed WANs (<500 Mb), fiber links included, SQM is highly recommended for most scenarios, and the ER-X will allow for 150-200Mb of it, whereas the ERL will only do 80-ish. So planned workload should be considered most of all, yes.

Regardless, the UDM architecture has none of the weaknesses of either of the ERL or ER-X, and is using a 1.7Ghz ARM chip, which will smoke the likes of either in software throughput, even the ER-4/12. But as we've acknowledged, bug-fixing is still mid-stage, and the OP really wants something reliable from the get-go (I don't blame him). Hedging a bet on the UDM may be the better decision. I personally like my gear to function 100% based on how it's capable of running at the time of purchase, but that's just me. Maybe the OP is more comfortable rolling the dice for now, and knowing that Ubiquiti has every reason to bug-fix this product, arguably more so than any other, as it's their premier product line and arguably the most popular product in that product line currently. That may be enough to push the decision back in favor of the UDM.

 

[Callinc]

Yes, no worries. I rather like the back and forth, too, as I think it helps the OP and others to make a better decision as well.

Regarding the ERL vs the ER-X, it depends on the services being run. For just plain NAT, with offload active and no software-based services running that would break offload, the ERL is faster, as it can actually do 1Gb/s full-duplex from interface to interface. The ER-X is capped at 1Gb/s simplex, due to lane limitations on its board. But the moment you turn on anything that requires software routing via the CPU, including VPN or QoS, the ER-X is roughly twice as powerful. For lower-speed WANs (<500 Mb), fiber links included, SQM is highly recommended for most scenarios, and the ER-X will allow for 150-200Mb of it, whereas the ERL will only do 80-ish. So planned workload should be considered most of all, yes.

Regardless, the UDM architecture has none of the weaknesses of either of the ERL or ER-X, and is using a 1.7Ghz ARM chip, which will smoke the likes of either in software throughput, even the ER-4/12. But as we've acknowledged, bug-fixing is still mid-stage, and the OP really wants something reliable from the get-go (I don't blame him). Hedging a bet on the UDM may be the better decision. I personally like my gear to function 100% based on how it's capable of running at the time of purchase, but that's just me. Maybe the OP is more comfortable rolling the dice for now, and knowing that Ubiquiti has every reason to bug-fix this product, arguably more so than any other, as it's their premier product line and arguably the most popular product in that product line currently. That may be enough to push the decision back in favor of the UDM.

Perfect summary.


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