80 WiFi devices create lag

[sfx2000]

And I would still use my main router right to connect 20 more wifi's.

One could perhaps - but see what happens with the two additional AP's - might be enough, and then let the router just handle the routing...

 

[ilyo]

I have just bought 2 of those: http://www.tp-link.com/il/products/details/TL-WR843ND.html
They are Router/AP, will it work as good as a dedicated AP? Thanks again.

 

[ilyo]

Connected both ap/routers and find another netgear ap/router and did not fix the problem at all.
So now I have 3 AP's at different radios (as much appart as possible), and the router. I have a program pinging all the phones and when used, the ping dropps or goes to 200-500.
Any ideas?

 

[thiggins]

Connected both ap/routers and find another netgear ap/router and did not fix the problem at all.
So now I have 3 AP's at different radios (as much appart as possible), and the router. I have a program pinging all the phones and when used, the ping dropps or goes to 200-500.

Provide details on how you have router and APs set up for channels and bands. You should be using 20 MHz mode in 2.4 GHz.

Have you verified how many devices are connected to each AP?

Do you have enough internet bandwidth to support the traffic load?

 

[ilyo]

Channels are 1-4-8-12, all using 20MHz in 2.4 GHz.
There are 15 devices connected to each AP.
Yes, the internet bandwidth is not the problem. I am pining them over LAN and the ping drops.

 

[ilyo]

any ideas?

 

[MichaelCG]

How much other WiFi interference is around you? If other businesses are next door all with 2.4GHz running as well, there is still a chance that the airspace is just clogged with that many devices talking in such a small area.

I also am concerned about the 1-4-8-12 channel spacing in such a small area. If you are going for the 4 channel split, shouldn't it be 1-5-9-13? Otherwise it should be the 3 channel split of 1-6-11.

Can we get more details on the clients? You say this is a phone store...don't most modern phones support 5GHz? Also, have turned down the power on the APs? If line of sight in the same room with multiple APs, you should be able to have the power very low.

 

[thiggins]

MichaelCG has good suggestions.

What are the devices doing when you are checking ping? Are they idle or active. If active, what are they doing (streaming, web, chat, etc.)

Bring up your new network one piece at a time.

Bring the router up, connect 20 clients, check ping.
Bring AP#1 up, connect clients, check ping.
Don't add more APs until you get the first AP working.

 

[pege63]

any ideas?

I can refer you to my posts here and here about how the 20/40/80/160 MHz band works

 

[Shonk]

android devices atleast go into slumber mode causing all sorts of eratic pings
when the device is idle

this is less than 10 feet from the ac88u and the only device on the 5ghz band atm connected at 866Mbps
and is simply the phone in power saving mode
are you sure your not observing this?

Pinging note4 [192.168.0.38] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 192.168.0.38: bytes=32 time=1753ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.0.38: bytes=32 time=3ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.0.38: bytes=32 time=558ms TTL=64
Reply from 192.168.0.38: bytes=32 time=2ms TTL=64

 

[ilyo]

Good point, but no. I am testing multiplayer games on these phones they give a lot of lag. We are testing over LAN, so nothing to do with internet lag. The PC to phone and phone to phone lag a lot.

 

[ilyo]

Just bought 2 more access points of 450 mbit. Will keep you posted.

 

[sfx2000]

Good point, but no. I am testing multiplayer games on these phones they give a lot of lag. We are testing over LAN, so nothing to do with internet lag. The PC to phone and phone to phone lag a lot.

New requirements here?

Gaming has different requirements than general internet usage and VOIP, which was my initial assumption...

 

[ilyo]

I got 4 AP's for the phones and 1 router for general use, so that are 5 WiFi networks. Which channels should I use? I am confused as most website says 1-6-11, but I need 2 more.
What should I do?

 

[ilyo]

My suggestion is 4 AP's tied back to single router - high RF coverage overlap, single SSID, and a 1, 4, 8, 11 channel plan... not so worried on co-channel interference, as high density AP's will solve this...

My idea was to use different SSID's to split up the phones manually.

 

[MichaelCG]

Your requirements seem to be all over the place. First this was a phone store to provide Internet to the display models. Now you are doing multi-player game testing?

When stuck with 2.4GHz as the only option, all you can really do is attempt to physically isolate and keep the power down as low as possible. So if you have a long area, you run channel 1, 6, 11, 1, 6 as you move down the building. Hoping that the interference from repeat channels are far enough away from completely stomping on each other. If I am remembering correctly, you are in Costa Rica? So you have four channels to pick from that aren't over lapping. I think an earlier post I mentioned you may be able to use 1-5-9-13.

Here is the challenge....you haven't isolated down what is causing the jump in latency and just keep throwing hardware and multiple changes at the problem and it just keeps coming back.

#1 - Simplify your network down to just a basic router and a single AP
#2 - Configure the AP to be on Channel 1
#3 - Confirm with a single device that ping times are acceptable and speeds are acceptable (establish baseline)
#4 - Figure out how many devices you can put on a single AP before latency jumps
#5 - Repeat 2-4 on Channels 6 & 11
#6 - Add in a 2nd AP on an alternate channel (AP-1 on 1, AP-2 on 6)
#7 - Figure out how many devices you can put on two AP before latency jumps

What you have to figure out is if the airwaves are just over saturated of if you are hitting some other limit of the hardware/software you using. I don't care if you buy 15 super duper uber great 450Mbps APs...if the 2.4GHz spectrum is already saturated, your performance is going to be in the crapper. 80 devices in a small physical area on 2.4GHz with an unknown signal quality all talking at the same time with non-enterprise gear is just asking for crappy experience. There is a reason most enterprises with high density clients don't generally rely upon the 2.4GHz spectrum.

 

[Atul]

Any router has a limit somewhere around 15 to 20 devices for simultaneous users. When we try to connect more clients it surely rejects the new users; if connected it won't be able to give IP Address. I have faced this issue in my home office and what I did was -

1. Limit the connections from Router to Client directly. (Only 10 Devices which is Not Planned for Users)
2. Adding more access points to the Router via LAN Port. (It will be directly connected to Router)
3. Allowing users to connect only AP not the router. (Change Router Password or Make it Hidden)

 

[ilyo]

Your requirements seem to be all over the place. First this was a phone store to provide Internet to the display models. Now you are doing multi-player game testing?

When stuck with 2.4GHz as the only option, all you can really do is attempt to physically isolate and keep the power down as low as possible. So if you have a long area, you run channel 1, 6, 11, 1, 6 as you move down the building. Hoping that the interference from repeat channels are far enough away from completely stomping on each other. If I am remembering correctly, you are in Costa Rica? So you have four channels to pick from that aren't over lapping. I think an earlier post I mentioned you may be able to use 1-5-9-13.

Here is the challenge....you haven't isolated down what is causing the jump in latency and just keep throwing hardware and multiple changes at the problem and it just keeps coming back.

#1 - Simplify your network down to just a basic router and a single AP
#2 - Configure the AP to be on Channel 1
#3 - Confirm with a single device that ping times are acceptable and speeds are acceptable (establish baseline)
#4 - Figure out how many devices you can put on a single AP before latency jumps
#5 - Repeat 2-4 on Channels 6 & 11
#6 - Add in a 2nd AP on an alternate channel (AP-1 on 1, AP-2 on 6)
#7 - Figure out how many devices you can put on two AP before latency jumps

What you have to figure out is if the airwaves are just over saturated of if you are hitting some other limit of the hardware/software you using. I don't care if you buy 15 super duper uber great 450Mbps APs...if the 2.4GHz spectrum is already saturated, your performance is going to be in the crapper. 80 devices in a small physical area on 2.4GHz with an unknown signal quality all talking at the same time with non-enterprise gear is just asking for crappy experience. There is a reason most enterprises with high density clients don't generally rely upon the 2.4GHz spectrum.

Thanks for the detailed reply. It helped a lot.
Just to clarify the current situation/requirements:
I have 80 phones connected at the same table which is 2x2 meters. All are basically really close to each other.
I have placed 4 AP's around the table in channels 1-5-9-13.
I am going to put them all on heavy tasks to see if lag is created and will report with the results.

Thanks again for helping.

 

[MichaelCG]

Any router has a limit somewhere around 15 to 20 devices for simultaneous users. When we try to connect more clients it surely rejects the new users; if connected it won't be able to give IP Address.

Not anywhere near true...I have over 30+ devices on my home network at any time, sometimes closer to 50 depending if I have company. Between phones, tablets, laptops, AppleTVs, FireTVs, Smart TVs, Sonos, Kindles, IP Cameras, Desktops, DVR, printers, and what ever else I am missing, I recently had to change my network from a /26 to a /24 since I was running out of free IPs when my family was in town for the holidays. They couldn't get their phones to join the WiFi to get to the Internet. I checked my logs and sure enough, DHCP pool was exhausted.

The real answer is "it depends" on a lot of variables on how many devices "said" network/hardware/software combo can support.

#1 - For most consumer gear, DHCP scope is the first thing to check (I have seen many devices with only 20-25 IPs in the default scope)
#2 - Check state table capacity (should not be an issue on anything from the past 10 years)
#3 - Check MAC table capacity (should not be an issue on anything from the past 10 years)

 

[thiggins]

.I have over 30+ devices on my home network at any time, sometimes closer to 50 depending if I have company

The 20 rule of thumb is for active devices. Would likely be fewer if all were streaming HD Netflix.