AC Band With 80MHz Width Has Never Worked (RT-87U/Nighthawk R7000 & ASUS PCE-AC66/PCE-AC68)

[Guardian Hope]

Hello everyone! First post but I am seeking some help with my home networking.

I have a rather large home so I am going to oversimplify the setup for the purpose of helping to determine WiFi issues: I now use the ASUS RT-87U as a "backbone" WiFi - in Access Point mode as there are a plethora of Ethernet lines running throughout the home can carry the traffic to the switch, gateway (handles DHCP, etc.), and any other remaining network equipment.

Everything works for the most part as expected except for one thing: the AC band. N works perfectly but AC has never been usable across two different routers: the Netgear Nighthawk R7000 and the new ASUS RT-87U lines. In addition, the AC band has never worked across two different WiFi cards: the ASUS PCE-AC66 and the ASUS PCE-AC68 (this is the current WiFi card for this particular computer - the other was switched out because Windows 10 kept identifying it as the AC68; however, this problem has been going on for years across two different operating systems).

Whenever I switch an AC capable router into AC mode, suddenly the AC band becomes unusable to the PCE-AC68 but older clients running WiFi N can connect to the 5GHz band still while in AC mode - 80MHz.

Here's a list of things I have tried to date:

• Switched WiFi Channel (tried every single on; currently sitting on 149 as 149 always gives the best possible speed and distance)
• Switched Routers
• Switched WiFi Cards
• Updated the computer's UEFI
• Reseated the WiFi Card
• Went through all the WiFi Card's Settings
• Moved the WiFi Card and Router to within 3-6 feet of each other
• Removed the 5GHz Wireless HDMI System (i.e. turned off and unplugged but it operates in the lower channels I believe)
• Adjusted both Client and Router power outputs from low to 100% (ironically, 100% gives the best performance)
• Factory Resets

However, no matter what, the 80MHz channel width does not work with the PCE-AC68 in either the Nighthawks or the RT-87Us. In AC mode, 40MHz is unstable on the RT-87 but switch it to N and it's stability galore.

On the RT-87Us I am using Merlin's latest stable firmware which was a great improvement over stock I might add.

For the PCE-AC68 here are the settings (starting with the WLAN Manager):

• Beamforming: Enabled
• TurboQAM: Enabled
• Interference Mitigation: Enabled

From the Windows driver settings:

• 20/40 Coexistence: Disabled (No Neighbors so no issues)
• 40MHz Intolerant: Disabled
• 802.11ac VHT Mode: 3
• 802.11h+d: Loose 11h
• 802.11n Preamble: Auto
• Antenna Diversity: Auto
• AP Compatibility Mode: Higher Performance
• Association Roam Preference: Disabled (Let's assume a one router scenario for now as I couldn't even get it to work with just one router)
• Band Preference: None
• Bandwidth Compatibility: 11a/b/g 20/40MHz (No Neighbors so no issues)
• BeamForming: Enabled
• Bluetooth Collaboration: Disabled (Along with service set to "4" in Windows Registry)
• BSS PLCP Header: Auto (Short/Long)
• BT-AMP: Enabled
• Disable Bands: None
• Disabled Upon Wired Connect: Disabled
• Fragmentation Threshold: 2346
• IBSS 54g(tm) Protection Mode: Disabled
• IBSS Mode: 802.11a/b/g/n Auto
• Locally Administered Mac Address: Not Present
• Minimum Power Consumption: Disabled
• Mixed Cell Support: Disabled
• Power Output: 100%
• Priority & VLAN: Priority & VLAN Disabled
• Rate (802.11a): Best Rate
• Rate (802.11b/g): Best Rate
• Roam Tendency: Conservative
• Roam Decision: Optimize Distance
• RTS Threshold: 2347
• Short GI: Auto
• WMM: Enabled
• WZC IBSS Channel Number: 149 (80MHz)
• XPress (TM) Technology: Enabled

Reported Connection Rate: 450Mbps / 5 Bars (4 bars when router operating at normal distance)

The router is currently operating, as I said, in N Only mode with a 40MHz channel width and settings as close as possible to the ASUS PCE-AC68 (remember, I said let's forget about the other routers for a moment, as this issue happened with each and every one with all others disabled and has happened across to router lines and two client cards).

I don't know if I'm missing something in the configuration somewhere or if AC band is just something that for one reason or another is going to be impossible in my environment even though the airspace is virtually clear.

Any help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Almost forgot: OS is Windows 10 Pro. Have also used Windows 8.1 and Windows 8.

 

[sfx2000]

Take the PCE-AC6* cards out of the equation and try with another adapter - I'd suggest one of the USB adapters mentioned in the articles below...

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-reviews/32545-ac580-usb-wireless-adapter-roundup

Or here

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-reviews/32271-ac1200-usb-wireless-adapter-roundup

One can get a single stream basic adapter for less than $20USD, and $40USD can get a nice 2 stream adapter...

If those work in 80MHz AC channels, then you know where the problem is..

 

[Guardian Hope]

Take the PCE-AC6* cards out of the equation and try with another adapter - I'd suggest one of the USB adapters mentioned in the articles below...

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-reviews/32545-ac580-usb-wireless-adapter-roundup

Or here

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-reviews/32271-ac1200-usb-wireless-adapter-roundup

One can get a single stream basic adapter for less than $20USD, and $40USD can get a nice 2 stream adapter...

If those work in 80MHz AC channels, then you know where the problem is..

I forgot to mention that I have tried other adapters as well including USB.

In fact, the worst experience is with USB adapters as they can never get a signal or there signal is extremely week or they can't keep up with a FiOS connection.

It's one of the reasons I went running back to PCI-E cards for wireless. I also don't know if this makes a difference but aside from the way out of service WRT54G routers, no Linksys router has ever worked on any band.

I pulled this information from Merlin's interface (I don't know how accurate it is but if I'm reading this correctly, for all the noise in the airspace there's nothing around to cause it. I have 1.9GHz phones, no neighbors, etc. and quite literally every client maxes out their N connection except for perhaps the iPhones, iPads, Androids):

Wireless 2.4 GHz
SSID: [REMOVED] Mode: AP
RSSI: 0 dBm SNR: 0 dB Noise: -90 dBm Channel: 3l BSSID: [REMOVED]

Wireless 5 GHz
SSID: [REMOVED] Mode: AP
RSSI: 0 dBm SNR: 38 dB Noise: -65 dBm Channel: 149l BSSID: [REMOVED]

The above is just the general airspace it's detecting.

The AC client cards at close range hover at around -30 dBm and in "normal" range at -52dBm to -64dBm. Right now they are at -54dBm.

 

[sfx2000]

I can see you've been working on this for a while - apparently their advice didn't help much...

Well, if an USB adapter on an extender cable can't reach the AP in 5GHz 802.11ac, then either you have environmental issues (e.g. noise interfering with your 5GHz, which if it ain't wifi, you will not see it on inSSIDer or similar tools) or plainly put, the signal levels are enough to support VHT80 channels - in other words, bad location..

The R7000 is a stable/mature AP, the RT-AC87U has challenges, but basic access isn't one of them - if you're within range, they should be able to connect and work with any 802.11ac client in 5GHz - but you need to be in range...

 

[Guardian Hope]

I can see you've been working on this for a while - apparently their advice didn't help much...

Well, if an USB adapter on an extender cable can't reach the AP in 5GHz 802.11ac, then either you have environmental issues (e.g. noise interfering with your 5GHz, which if it ain't wifi, you will not see it on inSSIDer or similar tools) or plainly put, the signal levels are enough to support VHT80 channels - in other words, bad location..

The R7000 is a stable/mature AP, the RT-AC87U has challenges, but basic access isn't one of them - if you're within range, they should be able to connect and work with any 802.11ac client in 5GHz - but you need to be in range...

Yes, their advice was pretty standard but than this is a strange situation. Even at 3-10 feet an 80MHz connection can't be established with two relatively powerful wireless transceivers. At that close of a range I would assume that whatever interference is occurring in the 5GHz band would be overtaken by how short of a distance the signal would travel but even then I was wrong.

I've even thought about purchasing those 600 mW amplifiers but I've read that they are pretty much a waste of money and increase latency across a wireless network. Plus, you can't exactly get those with the specifications (I've only seen up to AC1750) to try and overtake whatever environmental noise is occurring but if VHT80 doesn't work within 3-10 feet of the router there isn't really much of a point.

I read through the WHDI transceivers manual again to ensure they weren't operating on the same channels and they operate on the lower 5GHz band (i.e. the channel 36+ range) and not the higher channels (149+ range). Plus I've just flat out unplugged them to no avail to rule them out.

Clearly I'm stuck to the 40MHz spatial streams for no obvious reasons it seems.

However, the R7000 is a piece of junk. You can see many people complain about it on the Netgear forums - lack of stability in nearly everything. I had WNDR4500s before the R7000 - those were good routers. However, like all routers I have ever owned (minus the WRT54G), they burn out within two years. Except the R7000s which most burned out in what I believe may have been less than a year. As in loud pop and the WiFi bands go down but LAN stays connected.

Than again, considering the new ASUS routers have the 5GHz radio operating at nearly 75C even with a 20C airflow tells me that these routers will eventually burn out too. Hopefully they'll last longer than a year however but running at 75C 24/7/365 makes this all but inevitable. The CPU and the 2.4GHz radio operate from 52C to 64C.

Funny thing is, the WHDI transceivers are on 24/7/365 and run really hot to the touch and in three years (*knocks on wood*), they continue to chug a long. You'd think they would be able to build routers that wouldn't burn out so quickly but than the price difference is $1,000+ between the two (at least at time of purchase).

In either case, between the R7000 and the RT-87U, I would take the ASUS any day. They make far better APs than the R7000 and are like 100 times more stable than the R7000 but I am running Merlin's firmware and not stock like I did with the R7000 because DD-WRT reduced performance to the point that it was atrocious.

 

[snakebite3]

For the PCE-AC68 here are the settings (starting with the WLAN Manager):

• Beamforming: Enabled
• TurboQAM: Enabled
• Interference Mitigation: Enabled

disable Beamforming and Interference Mitigation?

 

[thiggins]

To get to the bottom of this, you're going to have to capture packet traces with Wireshark.

I'd also take the router and cards someplace else to rule out environmental factors.

 

[sfx2000]

Hmm... just wondering - maybe step back and just reset everything - your posts over on the Netgear site, lots of tweaks/changes and some of them may not be useful...

So I'm recommending the "Nuke and Pave" approach...

1) Remove all adapters, vendor SW, etc, and physcially remove them from your PC

2) Pick one, and only one, of your Router/AP's - doesn't matter which one, but just one...

3) Reset that device - go into the UI, reset all settings there, and then, hit the reset button just to be sure... nuke the planet from orbit, it's the only way to be sure...

Get an ethernet cable handy to connect to the router after the reset..

Plug the router back in - get it set up for your WAN, and on the WLAN side - leave the wireless settings alone, as the defaults are fairly sane - change the SSID if needed, and use a good WPA2 password, and doublecheck that WMM is enabled...

Now - install the drivers for your cards - do a driver only install (check w/Asus perhaps for the PCE-AC cards), don't install the vendor management apps, let windows manage the cards...

Then shutdown , and physically install the cards.. with the Asus PCE-AC cards, use the antenna stand, get the antenna's away from the PC as far as practically possible - if you're testing the USB dongles, use a USB extension cable getting it away from the PC - the common thread here is to remove the PC from the near-field RF noise that it may be generating..

If everything works, you should be right as rain...

Keep in mind that inSSIDer 2.x - it's not AC aware, so it will report the 11n channel width (depending on drivers, but BRCM and Realtek are pretty consistent here) so do not use it to judge if you're actually getting 80MHz channels or not in 5GHz - might consider using Acrylic WiFI instead, as in my limited experience, it does report the right info...

 

[psychopomp1]

OP,
On the PCE-AC68 card i assume you're using the external antenna stand instead of having the antennae hooked up directly to the PC card? That could be the source of your issue if you're doing the latter. From experience, i also used to get a very weak/unstable 802.11ac signal using the Asus AC87R router with the AC68 PCI card but this was fixed when i started using the external antenna stand.

 

[Guardian Hope]

Hello everybody! Sorry for the delay but with the holidays it can't be helped. I'll address each one of you individually.

snakebit3: They were actually initially disabled when I installed the cards and even than the cards would not take an AC 80MHz band. That's how I was able to rule those options out.

thiggins: I will have to get Wireshark reinstalled. It's been a very long time since I've said that but I will do so to capture packets. Now it's been a very long time since I used Wireshark, will it capture the packets as its trying to connect to the AC band?

sfx2000: I have a feeling my post may be equally long as yours but I do thank you for going back and finding that thread from Netgear's forums. It's been sometime and as you have said - a lot of the recommendations didn't seem required.

A few things have changed since my post on Netgear's site. When I was using the R7000s I was using the PCE-AC66. With the ASUS RT-87U I am now using the PCE-68 which is a newer variant of the card which I believe was released to rectify an incompatibility issue with the Z/X88 Intel series motherboards but they are virtually identical cards.

With the exclusion of nuking the central hardware (servers, switches, firewalls) that act as networking equipment (I figured WAN would have no affect and these pieces are also critical to TV and MoCA functionality), I have done as you suggested - the complete nuke from orbit.

Using an ethernet cable (one of the spare red colored backbone ones to be exact), I connected a single desktop to a single ASUS router and reconfigured the settings to make it operable to the WAN and left WLAN settings minus SSID alone and naturally ensured WMM capabilities.

Than I did a clean driver install only (fairly simple to do) with no-joy. The card dropped to the 2.4GHz channel.

I am going to purchase Acrylic (only $47.99) which I'm doing right now. inSSIDer hasn't been reliable for me in years.

As the last part pertains to both something you and the last poster suggested I will address you both:

psychopomp and sfx2000:

You are both correct in assuming I don't use the stand and it just occurred to me that my computers are made of metal. I will try running the antennas through the stand and report back any improvements and/or failures.

 

[sfx2000]

I am going to purchase Acrylic (only $47.99) which I'm doing right now.

Try the free version first... then you can purchase if you want/need the additional functionality (it's a nice tool, even the free-to-use version)

 

[Guardian Hope]

sfx2000:

I took your advice and just downloaded the free version as I really didn't need any of the other functions unless the advice I was given didn't work.

sfx2000 and psychopomp:

I honestly can't believe it but I hooked up the antenna base and moved it as far away from the computer as I could (the cords are relatively short) and the moment Windows 10 started up it actually preferred the 5GHz network. And it connected on the 80MHz bandwidth link. Sustaining an average pretty close to 1.3Gbps which for real world is pretty amazing.

However, the connection on the channel frequency I was using - 149 was extremely unstable (the internet was running at a lowly ~25Mbps). That's when I took a look at the chart of Acrylic and realized two things from reading the WHDI Transceiver's documentation last night: it operates from 5.6GHz to 5.866GHz - directly onto channel 149 and both antenna arrays function in close proximity to each other.

It was my belief that the lower channels, from something I read long ago, usually operate at a lower speed and transmit power due to restrictions. Apparently, I was wrong.

I adjusted the client card to Channel 36 (80MHz) and the single AP to match. It took a little bit for the AP to come back online but once it did the computer connected again at an average rate of 1.3Gbps except this time the FiOS Network speedtests were reporting pretty close to 500Mbps both ways now and the internet stabilized.

After doing this and making sure it was stable I brought up the entire WLAN network using Channel 36 (80MHz) / UNII-1 (Lower) and the clients online as well under these new specifications and everything is functioning as it should across the entire WLAN.

To surmise the solution:

Two problems were indicated: the ASUS PCE clients needed their antenna array base and the RT-87Us were operating within the frequency of WHDI (which has the far greater transmission power as it needs to send massive amounts of information at extremely low latency).

1. WHDI didn't start to interfere until after the PCE clients were setup correctly;
2. Switching all RT-87U channels and all AC clients out of the 5.6GHz-5.866GHz range (particularly Channel 149) which WHDI is using (and probably moving the PCE antenna array further from the WHDI array probably helped too).

I really should have came to SNB first. I've browsed SmallNetBuilder for years to find the top of the line routers and read the reviews - I don't know why I just never signed up and asked the question here as I did on the Netgear forums. It essentially took two days (there's a holiday so I don't count the days I were gone) to fix a problem I had for years and had deemed unsolvable.

Thank you everyone! You all each had a piece of the answer. My WLAN is now up and running at full AC 80MHz. Hopefully these routers will last a lot longer than the R7000s did. I am also still using Merlin's firmware (naturally).

 

[sfx2000]

Two problems were indicated: the ASUS PCE clients needed their antenna array base and the RT-87Us were operating within the frequency of WHDI (which has the far greater transmission power as it needs to send massive amounts of information at extremely low latency).

Cool - pretty much what the collective here believed the problem was - environmental - e.g. noise from the PC and possible interference.

Was able to rule out the AP's, as both of your AP's exhibited the same problem, and when you mentioned the USB dongles didn't work (many don't come with USB extender cables)...

Glad to hear that it all worked out - Tim Higgins has worked hard to curate a group of members here on the forums from a broad spectrum of communities representing all aspects of small networks.

 

[Guardian Hope]

Cool - pretty much what the collective here believed the problem was - environmental - e.g. noise from the PC and possible interference.

Was able to rule out the AP's, as both of your AP's exhibited the same problem, and when you mentioned the USB dongles didn't work (many don't come with USB extender cables)...

Glad to hear that it all worked out - Tim Higgins has worked hard to curate a group of members here on the forums from a broad spectrum of communities representing all aspects of small networks.

I did actually run into another problem which hasn't occurred since yesterday: the 5GHz band completely crashed for all clients for several minutes. The only thing reported in the logs was:

Sep 8 14:09:31 kernel: net_ratelimit: 20 callbacks suppressed
Sep 8 14:09:31 kernel: TCP: time wait bucket table overflow

Which has been repeating itself at various intervals with various callback numbers but it hasn't crashed since. So there may not actually be a log entry related to the complete crash of the 5GHz band.

 

[sfx2000]

I did actually run into another problem which hasn't occurred since yesterday: the 5GHz band completely crashed for all clients for several minutes. The only thing reported in the logs was

87U - these are known to have issues with the 5GHz...

 

[Guardian Hope]

87U - these are known to have issues with the 5GHz...

Of course they are... the R7000s burn out and don't even last more than a year (plus all their WiFi and LAN dropout issues during the early days) and their replacements have known 5GHz issues.

How I long for the days of WRT54G and the WNDR4500 - those were good, reliable routers. Router quality and certainly gone downhill over the years.

At least they are "known issues" - hopefully they are fixable through firmware updates. None of the routers have had a 5GHz crash since but still it's rather disappointing to learn of such issues.

On the plus side, at least it's not a client issue!

 

[sfx2000]

How I long for the days of WRT54G and the WNDR4500 - those were good, reliable routers. Router quality and certainly gone downhill over the years.

Well, FWIW, the industry has added a shedload of functionality on to those devices over the years, and many firmware branches at the OEM level go back to the old days of the WRT54G and similar...

Consumer Grade Router/AP's have very old DNA, and there's a legacy debt that is troubling many - from a functional aspect to security to performance... much of that code is 10-15 years old, and has become brittle over time - hard to make even a small change without something going boom, but somehow, this collection of software parts flying in formation still works...