Asus locking down routers to comply with new FCC rules

[Deleted member 22229]

28 pages later, and you guys are still debating about this?

<shakes head>

 

[ColinTaylor]

It's Groundhog Day.

 

[jegesq]

It's Groundhog Day.

Dr. Teeth just woke up. Just like Rip Van Winkle.

 

[DrTeeth]

28 pages later, and you guys are still debating about this?

<shakes head>

Gives a good indication of how much it hacks us off.

 

[jegesq]

To Dr. Teeth:
Bits said it really succinctly:

The document you link appears extremely old, maybe over 10 years old.
There is no difference between EU countries, previously there may have been, but it is now clear all local laws are superseded by the EU definition.

No need to be "hacked off", Doc. The UK really is part of the EU, and has been for quite a long time. Your info is old and outdated.

 

[DrTeeth]

No need to be "hacked off", Doc. The UK really is part of the EU, and has been for quite a long time. Your info is old and outdated.

Being part of the EU is a very good reason to be hacked off

 

[Jim - ASUS]

Hi everyone - I was directed to this thread from OCUK Forums, which I joined recently to try to help out our customers. To be clear, I'm not from the technical team, so I don't have any answers personally, but I'm keen to understand and pursue any issues that exist.

From what I've understood, especially from @jegesq (thanks!), in terms of the UK market, this is not something that we're able to do much about at present given EU restrictions. Is that correct or is there something I'm missing.

 

[DrTeeth]

Hi everyone - I was directed to this thread from OCUK Forums, which I joined recently to try to help out our customers. To be clear, I'm not from the technical team, so I don't have any answers personally, but I'm keen to understand and pursue any issues that exist.

From what I've understood, especially from @jegesq (thanks!), in terms of the UK market, this is not something that we're able to do much about at present given EU restrictions. Is that correct or is there something I'm missing.

Hi Jim and welcome.
With all due respect, your question should be directed to the people within Asus who have the answers and possibly took the decisions rather than from people on a forum whose provenance cannot be established. Then, you could do us all a favour and let is know which of the Asus routers can/will be able to use all the legal UK channels on 5GHz legally and the *maximum* legal power on both bands. You never know, some of us may splash out on a new PROPERLY localised router rather than putzing about to get that with the latest firmwares or be forced to use older ones. Please do not blame the EU <big spit> for the issue. Asus has not supplied the hardware to work within the current regulations. I would he happy for hardware that did!
With kind regards (honest),
DrT

 

[Jim - ASUS]

Hi Jim and welcome.
With all due respect, your question should be directed to the people within Asus who have the answers and possibly took the decisions rather than from people on a forum whose provenance cannot be established. Then, you could do us all a favour and let is know which of the Asus routers can/will be able to use all the legal UK channels on 5GHz legally and the *maximum* legal power on both bands. You never know, some of us may splash out on a new PROPERLY localised router rather than putzing about to get that with the latest firmwares or be forced to use older ones. Please do not blame the EU <big spit> for the issue. Asus has not supplied the hardware to work within the current regulations. I would he happy for hardware that did!
With kind regards (honest),
DrT

Hi DrT, and thanks for getting back to me.

I understand the point you're making, but if I go straight to the technical team without a full understanding of what the issue is then I've got no hope of getting a clear answer or making any worthwhile progress. This thread has clearly been going on a long time, and different people seem to have wildly different views of what the issue is so it's hard for me to get a handle on it.

I've got no interest either way in terms of blaming the EU - that's simply what appeared to be the present direction of the conversation. So from your POV which channels and what powers should we be providing access to that we presently do not?

 

[jegesq]

Hi DrT, and thanks for getting back to me.

I understand the point you're making, but if I go straight to the technical team without a full understanding of what the issue is then I've got no hope of getting a clear answer or making any worthwhile progress. This thread has clearly been going on a long time, and different people seem to have wildly different views of what the issue is so it's hard for me to get a handle on it.

I've got no interest either way in terms of blaming the EU - that's simply what appeared to be the present direction of the conversation. So from your POV which channels and what powers should we be providing access to that we presently do not?

Not to speak for Dr. T (I would never presume to do that), but I think I can distill for you the issue that people in the UK are concerned about:

First, Asus wireless routers sold in the UK apparently only allow (with unmodified, stock firmware) the end-user to use channels 36, 40, 44 and 48 on the 5ghz band. This means that there is only one possible combination of channels to enable a single 80mhz width channel, and that width is required in order to obtain true 802.11ac throughput and speed (at least with "wave 1" of 11.ac).

The firmware installed on Asus routers sold at retail does not allow end users to access or use other 5hgz channels that ETSI (the EU equivalent of the FCC in the U.S.) permits for unlicensed use in the EU. Those are channels 52, 56, 60, 64, 100, 104, 108, 112, 116, and 120, 124, 128, 132, 136 and 140.

With only one possible 80mhz channel, if there is any interference from another nearby 5ghz wireless AP, this will cause the router's 802.11 coexistence and contention protections to activate, which will throttle the channel width back automatically to 40mhz (or, if the 5hgz channels are set to use 40mhz to drop back to 20mhz width in the case of 802.11n).

In largely rural or sparsely populated areas, this isn't a problem. Likewise, with 5ghz having reduced range (compared to b/g and n), there's less chance for such contention and coexistence interference in the first instance (and with reduced tx power, even less...but more about that below).

Conversely, in areas that are crowded or congested with many neighboring AP's this has the serious potential to not only reduce the availability of the end-user to utilize full 802.11ac bandwidth, it may prevent 802.11ac at all (in the sense that a user will only be able to get performance equivalent to .11n).

A second, but related issue has to do with transmit power: Asus firmware installed on routers sold in the UK apparently not only no longer allows for the end user to switch or change country or region settings (which might allow for the use of higher tx power than is otherwise permitted in the region or country where the router was sold). Stated differently, Asus routers now have transmit power settings of no more than 80mw, whereas under even ETSI's regulations transmit power is permitted up to 100 mw for the lower portion of the 5ghz spectrum (36-48), and up to 500 mw in the mid and upper portions of the 5ghz band (as long as DFS and TPC are implemented on those router when using those channels).

Originally (at least when this thread began), an oft-heard complaint was that Asus had begun to "lock down" routers so that the end-users could no longer change the region settings and could not change tx power settings beyond 80mw, and it was also unclear whether DFS and TPC were even enabled in any other region's settings.

I think by this point in the thread, there are reports that more recent Asus firmware has opened up additional channels on routers sold in the UK/EU, and that DFS and TPC are being implemented, but the same issue of limited choices for 80mhz width channels remains evne with those additional channels.

So what I think remains an issue is 1) if Asus' routers employ chips which can and do implement Dynamic Frequency Selection (DFS) and Transmit Power Control (TPC), both of which are required in order to use the mid- and upper frequency channels on 5ghz, why not just make all the channels that are permissible accessible, and 2) why is transmit power still limited to settings that do not permit the end-user to take advantage of the full power that is permitted to be used within the UK region.

A sort of side issue is this: What will be the case when "Wave 2" devices are eventually made available, since those require 160mhz-wide channels, something that just may not even be possible on more than a single combination of channels in the UK.

I think that pretty much sums up the issues If I've left anything out, I'm sure someone else will come along and let you know.

 

[jegesq]

BTW, one thing I left out of my post above: When Dr. T refers to "PROPERLY LOCALISED" firmware, I think he is referring to a specific UK setting, and not just one that is an all-encompassing EU setting baked into the firmware. That, in and of itself is an entirely separate issue, and has to do with whether under the EU regulatory scheme it is even permissible for a manufacturer to have such a country setting for the UK which has different channel or tx power settings than the EU allows.

Even though I may be of questionable provenance to Dr.T, I believe that individual country settings that differ from the EU settings is no longer permitted. You might ask your legal /regulatory compliance folks about that as well while you're at it.

 

[Jim - ASUS]

Thanks for that post, makes things a lot clearer for me. As soon I get chance I'll raise it with the technical team and see what more I can find out for everyone here - although I can't guarantee I'll have a speedy response, as my priority is to get clear and final answers and hopefully resolutions where necessary, rather than partial explanations.

 

[NGRhodes]

BTW, one thing I left out of my post above: When Dr. T refers to "PROPERLY LOCALISED" firmware, I think he is referring to a specific UK setting, and not just one that is an all-encompassing EU setting baked into the firmware. That, in and of itself is an entirely separate issue, and has to do with whether under the EU regulatory scheme it is even permissible for a manufacturer to have such a country setting for the UK which has different channel or tx power settings than the EU allows.

Even though I may be of questionable provenance to Dr.T, I believe that individual country settings that differ from the EU settings is no longer permitted. You might ask your legal /regulatory compliance folks about that as well while you're at it.

No it is not permissible.
The UK implements 1999/5/EC in its regulations and Ofcom (the UK communications regulators) states in numerous docs on its website that non of its requirements prevent compliance with the 1999/5/EC directive.

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/bi...s-tech-info/interface-requirements/uk2006.pdf is the most up to date I could find and states:

2.1 The Radio Equipment and Telecommunications Terminal Equipment Directive 99/5/EC (R&TTE Directive) was implemented in the United Kingdom (UK) on the 8 April 2000 by The Radio Equipment and Telecommunications Terminal Equipment Regulations 2000, Statutory Instrument 2000 No. 730. In accordance with Articles 4.1 and 7.2 of Directive 1999/5/EC, this UK Interface Requirement contains the requirements for the use of Wireless Access Systems (WAS) including RLANs operating in the 5150-5725 MHz band.

2.2 Nothing in this UK Radio Interface Requirement shall preclude the need for equipment to comply with Directive 1999/5/EC.

 

[jegesq]

No it is not permissible.
The UK implements 1999/5/EC in its regulations and Ofcom (the UK communications regulators) states in numerous docs on its website that non of its requirements prevent compliance with the 1999/5/EC directive.

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/bi...s-tech-info/interface-requirements/uk2006.pdf is the most up to date I could find and states:

Thanks. I was a aware of that, but since this new fellow claims to have connections directly with Asus insiders, I'd like to hear them acknowledge what we know to be the case, i.e., that the UK is bound by the R&TTE Directives and that there isn't any such thing as a separate "UK" region, and instead all devices manufactured for sale in the EU must comply with the EU's regulations. Perhaps if Dr. T hears it from someone other than you or me, he'll believe it and accept that there's no such thing as UK "localised" settings, at least none that are unique only to the UK among all other EU member nations.

 

[S_D]

Not to speak for Dr. T (I would never presume to do that), but I think I can distill for you the issue that people in the UK are concerned about:

First, Asus wireless routers sold in the UK apparently only allow (with unmodified, stock firmware) the end-user to use channels 36, 40, 44 and 48 on the 5ghz band. This means that there is only one possible combination of channels to enable a single 80mhz width channel, and that width is required in order to obtain true 802.11ac throughput and speed (at least with "wave 1" of 11.ac).

The firmware installed on Asus routers sold at retail does not allow end users to access or use other 5hgz channels that ETSI (the EU equivalent of the FCC in the U.S.) permits for unlicensed use in the EU. Those are channels 52, 56, 60, 64, 100, 104, 108, 112, 116, and 120, 124, 128, 132, 136 and 140.

Hi there,

This is odd, because as I explained it differs from my UK bought Asus AC68U... I have access to all the channels that I expect, and a look at the CFE suggests it's operating at the maximum permissaible power too...

Simon

 

[DrTeeth]

Even though I may be of questionable provenance to Dr.T, I believe that individual country settings that differ from the EU settings is no longer permitted. You might ask your legal /regulatory compliance folks about that as well while you're at it.

First, thanks for making my points better than I could.
Second, I had nobody in mind at all when I mentioned "questionable provenance", maybe "unverifiable provenance" would have been better. I was just suggesting that Jim could get all the info he needed from inside Asus itself.

Have a good weekend,

DrT

 

[jegesq]

Hi there,

This is odd, because as I explained it differs from my UK bought Asus AC68U... I have access to all the channels that I expect, and a look at the CFE suggests it's operating at the maximum permissaible power too...

Simon

Simon,

Yes, that is why I also wrote in my post to Jim-Asus this:

I think by this point in the thread, there are reports that more recent Asus firmware has opened up additional channels on routers sold in the UK/EU, and that DFS and TPC are being implemented, but the same issue of limited choices for 80mhz width channels remains even with those additional channels

I had your reported experience and our exchange about the other channels on your Asus in mind. Sorry I didn't mention your experience specifically by name, but hopefully Jim-Asus will not be too burdened by reading back through this thread to get a better idea of the experiences and perspectives of those who have participated in this thread since the beginning.

Thanks.

 

[GoNz0]

Run away Jim, run away.
Thou shall get ripped a new one trying to help here

 

[Jim - ASUS]

Run away Jim, run away.
Thou shall get ripped a new one trying to help here

Thanks for the tip GoNz0

Mind you, if our products don't live up to expectations, that is to a degree what I'm here for...

 

[joegreat]

28 pages later, and you guys are still debating about this?

<shakes head>

OK. In the new forum software only 15 pages, but still...