Brainstorming: Routers without a Firmware , Why Not ?

[4Leaf]

Day zero patches anyone?

I also remember my Motorola Xoom. Android 3.0 had no support for the SD card slot they had added to the device. Took until the 3.1 Android update, nearly a year later, before the SD card even worked...

Also, I know someone who works at a very well known business and home software publisher. He was telling me once about when he had to ask someone else at the office: "Are you telling me we are going to ship a product with "xxx" known defects?!" (I forgot the actual number, but it wasn't just 3 or 4)

Doesn't surprise me

 

[Nerre]

When a router/AP is designed, the major costs are the PCB, the Chipsets, and the rest of the Bills of Material - software, for the most part, isn't much of a cost adder.

Maybe, but the hardware is useless without the software.

It's like selling a car without an engine. "You can install any engine you like, someone just have to develop it first."

 

[IAAI]

Software is a market differentiator.

Even in the coming world of SDN, vendors are positioning devices to load THEIR software, not software of the user's choice.

Vendors are not going to do away with market differentiators.

I appreciate your point

 

[IAAI]

Not having firmware would also prevent manufacturers from putting routers on the market without all the promised features, or working in some reduced mode. This would increase the time to market, and decrease the competitive advantage that they think that user disappointment gives them *smile*.

Anyways, they need the ability to fix bugs, especially security bugs, as time goes on. If security bugs/exploits turned up after their initial release, they'd have to send you a new router to fix them *smile*, or you'd have to buy a new router to get fixes. Not that having users have to buy a new router to get security fixes would displease manufacturers, but that would be a different world.

They could do so by flashing new kernel/bios (I don't know what you guys call it lol) update
And since the FW could be preloaded it’s the SW company problem and they will lose a market share for this and that's why there is debugging and testing phase, to eliminate any error

 

[IAAI]

See "open source ready" routers.

Again, see what I mentioned about the issue of OS size. Things like Windows, Linux, etc are so much larger, not simply because of the features, but also the fact that they need to interoperate on so much different hardware.

Granted, we aren't talking a 3.6GB ISO to load up on your router for router firmware that would support most/all hardware out there, but it might turn in to a 20-30MB, or even larger firmware file...that then gets decompressed in to something a lot bigger. Flash would need to get bigger (more expense), RAM requirements would be higher, start-up times would be longer as you'd have to figure out what modules to load in to memory. Also likely it won't really be optimized to the hardware.

DD-WRT doesn't run on all DD-WRT capable routers. Specific builds run on specific routers, all under the heading of "DD-WRT". It's like saying "linux". There is RedHat, Debian, Ubuntu, etc, etc. Except in this case it would be hardware specific versions of Linux (which...guess what the underlaying OS is for most routers)

Its a lovely idea, but when it comes down to an appliance, which is what a typical router is, it won't really ever work. Now, if you went to SDR (Software Defined Routing), you can do it. By all means. The problem there is, again, very high requirements and it is difficult to get in to too much hardware accelerated functionality, because fixed function hardware support, across a variety of implementations takes more and more storage space to be able to account for how to work it for the OS/Firmware. SDR has the promise (and can be) awesome, but the hardware is vastly more expensive for a reason, and it isn't always faster either (slower doesn't necessarily mean it isn't better).

Just like software defined switching.

First, We are currently playing around $300 for a hardware to me sounds like 2 decades old. Nowadays a smart watch has more ram/space than our routers. Why Not?
Secondly, since it may sound like a Linux distros but with the same interface and most of the options, I guess it would be easy to build for each support router.

 

[IAAI]

A router without a firmware is basically just a switch. You need code to process the packets according to user parameters to handle routing. That's what differentiate a switch from a router.

After that, anyone developping a firmware needs to control the hardware. This is what the driver code does. An operating system without driver code doesn't do anything - it needs to interface with the hardware. That's where the hardware manufacturer has to provide you (the firmware developer) with driver code to use their hardware. Writing device drivers to interface with hardware can be very time consuming, and requires very low level knowledge of the hardware - something that is not publicly available for SoC (see how much Linus Torvalds love SoC manufacturers, for a good example. Expect your usual Linus expletives. )

And you're back to your starting point: router need to ship with some code from the get go, even if you were to develop your own firmware for it.

Kinda like how Windows or Linux wouldn't do anything without the driver code to make it talk to the hardware.

I guess if it just came to get the driver code, we could do so legally but it needs a lot of money: D or we do it the cheap way buycott them until they listen
About the time consumption it's a SW company not just a regularly guy like me with a normal PC

 

[IAAI]

Hi,
Let me ask you a question. Have you seen a perfect programmer or perfect
software(firmware)? I never did in my 40+ years in the field. I spent chunk of that 40+ years applying patches, applying engineering changes, etc. which never ends.

Honestly no, but we can somehow overcome this if we got together. I believe with someone like you,xyz,abc....EXT the error factor could be very low.

 

[IAAI]

Hi,
You are talking about todays routers, No?

Thanks for sharing your opinion. Could you please explain, Why Not?

 

[IAAI]

And things keep getting worse and worse, as software is becoming ridiculously complex as customers expect device "X" to do everything and some more. My Amiga 1200 had a complete operating system taking a few megabytes, and the hard disk on it was 20 MB. Today, a *MOUSE* driver wouldn't fit on that 20 MB HDD...

And also as time-to-release are getting shorter. Manufacturers ship devices with known defects due to running out of time to fix it, and expecting customers to get software updates through the Internet at a later time.

After 15 years as an IT professional (and 30 years playing with computers and other devices in general), I've grown quite disillusioned about the current state of software in our world.

Someday, something BIG will crumble due to software issues.

That is why we rely on someone like you to cover our back.

 

[IAAI]

Hi,
Interesting is often patch to fix a bug creates another bug, LOL! More scary is drugs dealing with human lives, same is going on.... We're never perfect, forever we're trying to be perfect.

There is no Perfect thing, but this should not disappoint us. Perfection is dream and we are always trying to be at least close to.

 

[IAAI]

Thoughts here...

When a router/AP is designed, the major costs are the PCB, the Chipsets, and the rest of the Bills of Material - software, for the most part, isn't much of a cost adder.

Walking things thru - let's say I want to build out a AC1200 class router. N600 for 2.4GHz, and AC1200 for 5GHz. Simple enough these days...

I can do two paths, and much if it depends on maturity of the technology, but also the business case...

Path 1 - I'm a big name, and it's a product that isn't out yet, but silicon is baking, and close to mass production.

I call down the road to Broadcom, Atheros, and Marvell - I tell them I want X/Y/Z - they give me a proposed chipset, gerbers for a reference design, a board support SW package, along with a couple of SDK boards (stretches). This along with a basic bill of materials for the reference design so that the Product guys can start working their numbers...

This is basic router/AP - now if I want to add a DLNA/Airplay/TimeMachine/NAS etc, then I've got to add the appropriate HW/SW needed on top of the Reference HW/SW design (this is where most bugs creep in)

Add that... And because this is new stuff, there's a fair amount of NRE costs that are going to go with it.

Path 2 - mature stuff... even if I'm a Tier One OEM, when we get into the rinse/lather/repeat mode in the business cycle, I still want to get "new" product onto the shelf - so I go to an ODM - these are companies you here about once in a while - Cameo is one, Gemstar is another - Taiwan is full of the white box folks that build things, and they're very good at it. And the margins here on Manf, they're very tight, as expected, because the Tier1 OEM is working to recover the NRE spent on the leading edge product.

There again, we talk about features, and basic costs FOB somewhere, these days for the US is typically either LongBeach or SFO/Oakland.

Really what it comes down to - this process is iterative - from 1st Gen through followups - and it's tightly coupled on the HW and SW.

To roll one's own - it's entirely possible - MicroTik is a good example of this with their routerboard line, and when you get the HW, they have a link/license for the SW, which is open source, and one can tinker at will... there are others...

in the end however, the SOC/WiFi chipset vendors - they want you locked into their platforms on a generational basis - they make the code and toolchains exclusive, and the cost to jump out very high indeed...

Qualcomm has been banging that drum for over 15 years in the mobile space, and that's why everyone else is now having a hard time breaking in - it's not just the basic BOM, it's the tools and dev environment, and that is where the lock in exists.

sfx

I appreciate your participation.
I think new Technology development sometime needs to stop at some point, just to give us time to get the previous ones working probably and make a good use of it. What merlin said is true imagine building a new house with a week foundation no matter how modern/up to-date it will collapse and our hangar to new technologies will badly impact the future generations . In 20 years, the majority of kids will not know what the purpose of a PC is.
We just need some brake to appreciate/fix what we have come to of technology and we have too much

if the FW exists and has big fan-base router companies will be forced to follow .

it's time for them to listen i don't want 8x8 router i just want my 2x2 and 3x3 to work probably

 

[IAAI]

Right! Concept applies to buying a car, too.
You buy without engine. You drive to engine-of-your-choice shop.

Maybe, but the hardware is useless without the software.

It's like selling a car without an engine. "You can install any engine you like, someone just have to develop it first."

At least i have too many options suv, sedan, coupe... EXT + AWD, 2WD <<< front or back and 4WD oh wait you can get manual transmition ,Auto, CVT 4,5,6,7,8 or 9 speeds (the point we have too many options) . btw there is a small device you can buy from ebay that could allow to tune your car from home and there is no drivers and it is not a closed source. Most of the mechanics can play with the car computer.
For example: Mercedes-Benz gives you 3 options but the car with their regular engine, AMG engine <<< same company but different department or get it from Brabus to get the most out of it
Enough with cars I’m going for a drive

 

[IAAI]

The software is the brains of the operation and tells the hardware how to behave. I believe the best solution is to figure out a new way of making the software. We just need to figure out a better way to present the language coding that could perhaps possibly produce way less bugs in the software.

Very Good Idea - We need a very simple language that everyone can understand easily.

 

[azazel1024]

Actually, no, not more powerful than a smart watch.

A lot of the core processors are on par with a 2 year old smart phone though, but they aren't necessarily handling everything and simply the CORE, happens to often be ARM based all of the sudden (was often MIPS32/64 until recently).

There is a LOT of "add on" to that core that handles a lot of fixed function stuff that a smart phone can't do. Some of that fixed function hardware needs firmware/software support and some barely needs anything.

The processors currently don't need a huge amount of storage. You are generally unpacking a 8-32MB operating system and firmware package in to RAM, plus needing enough for routing tables, DHCP pool, etc., maybe a bit of cache. So what you are looking at is really only needing 128-256MB of RAM.

If you have to up it, it increases costs and power consumption. Sure, it might not be hugely, but if you have to increase it to 1GB, that is likely an extra $2-4...which based on likely margins, means charging $10-20 more for the router. Also means more flash storage, which yeah, cheap, but still more cost.

All of this stuff requires more processing power, which means more powerful SoCs needed, which increases costs again by at least a few bucks, and the markup then associated.

Sure, you could probably make a good general purpose router that can support (effectively) SDR, but then your $300 router gets maybe $10-20 slashed off the price because the company can lay off a few software and test engineers, but the BOM and margins means that you then tack on another $100 in materials and marginal costs.

So now you have the firmware free router for $400 to put an open OS that can run on any router (that also happens to be larger, produce more heat/use more power, etc).

Please enjoy.

 

[htismaqe]

When a router/AP is designed, the major costs are the PCB, the Chipsets, and the rest of the Bills of Material - software, for the most part, isn't much of a cost adder.

All the more reason why, from a BUSINESS perspective, removing the software doesn't make any sense.

Software is the only thing generating PROFIT MARGIN for these vendors.

 

[sfx2000]

All the more reason why, from a BUSINESS perspective, removing the software doesn't make any sense.

Software is the only thing generating PROFIT MARGIN for these vendors.

Software for the most part is the differentiators between the different vendors. They all use the same basic designs, with some variations on a theme, and then use checkbox engineering/product development and their supply chain/distribution channel leverage to try and beat the other guy that is basically shipping the same stuff in a different bucket.

Reading thru this thread, and others here, is that I'm getting a sense that many folks are getting frustrated with this approach - esp. with the kitchen sink feature set, e.g. SMB/FTP/VPN/DLNA etc with features that barely work and overall product instability, all to chase down corners of the market where perhaps...

One of the things about product development - the more features one rolls in, the more bugs it will contain, the more time it will need before it ships, and likely, esp. in the product lifecycle of these devices, is that many bugs may never be fixed. There's just no time for it, and putting money/time/effort into Product that has already shipped is a key decider if there are no gating issues... so you might get a couple of spins that fix glaring issues, but there are hundreds of major, minor, and niggling little bugs that will never be fixed.

We're starting to see the second generation of AC1750/AC1900 class products out here, and they're getting mature and stable for the most part - when we look at the current Wave2 (AC1900+), for the most part they're a step backwards in performance and for most folks here, stability... and let's be honest, those products are half-baked, and they likely will not be fixed - instead, there will be new HW/SW and rinse/later/repeat...

Anzaia had a great comment - I'll repost it here:

"it's time for them to listen i don't want 8x8 router i just want my 2x2 and 3x3 to work properly"​

I think this echoes the sentiment of many here...

 

[4Leaf]

The biggest problem is all people care about anymore is NEW, NEW, NEW! And not Quality, Quality, Quality and Reliability, Reliability, Reliability. I'm not just talking about routers either.

Everybody is way to interested in what the newest fad is. I stopped caring about the newest stuff when I started to notice that everything that is brand new and just came out is bound to have a spectrum of all kinds of problems that they will have to fix before the product is anywhere near where it should have been when it was released.

If people would just get over the fact that YES new things are going to be coming out. Does that actually mean that it is better and worth spending your money on without any proof of the quality of the product before you buy it.

All we consumers have to do is stick with the old reliable stuff that we know works day after day until the large manufacturers realize that nobody wants to keep buying these products unless they are actually better then the old ones.

It is such a same so many products and rushed release dates are determined by nothing more than money rather than innovation and new ideas.

 

[TonyH]

The biggest problem is all people care about anymore is NEW, NEW, NEW!.

Hi,
Like flashing f/w because there comes new release w/o good reason, LOL!

 

[TonyH]

All the more reason why, from a BUSINESS perspective, removing the software doesn't make any sense.

Software is the only thing generating PROFIT MARGIN for these vendors.

Hi,
Hardware anyone can build, software not really. Real thing is in software, like AI, fuzzy logic, biometric interface, etc., etc. Hardware flaws often can be dealt with software as well. All in all, advancement of technology is ahead of our ability to absorb it all making us dumber, lazier more and more. iPhone 6? is there any one who can understand all the features and apps use them all all the time? Raise your hand.

 

[htismaqe]

All we consumers have to do is stick with the old reliable stuff that we know works day after day until the large manufacturers realize that nobody wants to keep buying these products unless they are actually better then the old ones.

I would argue that "WE" are not typical consumers.

Sorry, but I'm a realist. The idea that things will change if we all "stick together" is just pure fantasy. We make up maybe 5-10% of the total consumer networking market I would guess.

The vast majority of consumers automatically assume newer=better and there's nothing at all you can do to change that. 50 years of rampant materialism aren't going to be undone overnight, if at all.

But this is probably a discussion for a political forum rather than this one...