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Coaxial Signal leaks / induction

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NogUV

Occasional Visitor
Hello all,

I have some coaxial cables in the flat I moved in and because there's coaxial cabling, I thought, bingo, I'll plug some G.hn adapters and have gigabit LAN. Unfortunately, the G.hn mesh is only stable up to three adapters, no matter where I plug them. I tried two different vendors, similar results. At 4 adapters, it starts behaving very strangely.

I then decided to properly reverse engineer (if there is such a thing as proper reverse engineering) the coaxial cabling without tearing down the walls, I stumbled upon very strange effects.

From the outside, it looks like a unicable setup: one cable goes from the basement to the first socket on floor 1, then the second, and so on up to floor 2 (appartment is on two stories and there's a basement). There are 5 coaxial sockets in the flat and all have two coaxial cables in them (I opened every single one) in and an out, except the last one, which has only an in. The splitter for the house is in the basement (I have access to it), I have disconnected the coaxial cabling of the flat from it. The cable modem is in the basement and connected to the house splitter. Then the G.hn device in the basement is connected to the coaxial cable that goes up to the flat.

Someone else lives in floor 0, which is why this coaxial cable is so important to me, it's my only way to have a local network up to the basement with gigabit speed: laying additional cables is not an option, the alternative is powerline, which I tested: it offers 20Mbps between basement and flat....

Now to the weird part: I plugged G.hn devices in 4 sockets (basement, 2 on floor 1 and one on floor 2), then removed the Axing 967-11X socket in Room 2 on floor 1, leaving IN and OUT dangling out the wall. This should normally cause everything in floor 2 to lose G.hn signal from the basement and vice versa, only that did not happen, they "only" went down from 1700Mbps to 200Mbps.

So now I suspect something is quite wrong in my coaxial cabling, which would explain why the G.hn devices are having such a hard time building a mesh bigger than 3 devices.

Induction on coaxial cables should be inexistent in my understanding. The 1 cm of naked copper dangling out the wall in Room 2 should not cause enough induction for this to happen.

I'm out of ideas, so I'm open for any wild theory and how to verify it. What could explain this drop in bandwidth instead of complete loss of signal when I disconnected the unicable in the middle?
 
Nope, induction between coax cables is not a thing --- the outer shield sees to that. There has to be something else going on. You mentioned a house splitter but provided no details; what is that (still) connected to? I'm suspicious that there's still some signal pathway involving that.
 
Somebody else did some experimentation in the past and demonstrated MoCA maintaining a connection between disconnected coax cables. To eliminate the possibility, you could terminate each end of the disconnected cable with a barrel connector and 75-ohm terminator.
 
That's how it looks like, very high level. The Cable provider is not connected to my local coax anymore, only up to the cable modem (basement). The rest is a segregated coax network. (again, this is all theory based on what I see coming out of the walls – I can't see through the walls if someone did something funny in the past...)

Cable provider <==> Cable Modem <=eth=> Router <=eth=> G.hn adapter <=coax=> oher G.hn adapters.

Thanks for mentioning induction is a thing if the cables are not properly terminated, that's helpful. I thought I was going crazy.

So I see two possible sources of issues (please pile on if you can think of other problems):
* Induction – only if there still is some cable not properly terminated somewhere.
* reflection – for example, a splitter somewhere in the wall with no 75Ohm cap on the unused connectors.

(I don't think I have an attenuation problem, I get 1.5Gbps+ from the basement up to the last coax socket in the flat, if I connect only three G.hn devices. And G.hn uses 0-200MHz, which I think has a low probability of being filtered out by some splitter for example – but that's just my personal gut feeling)

Any idea how I could narrow down the problematic location in my coax network?

Maybe it's worth hiring a professional with the right tools to measure everything from the basement to every socket in the apartment. I don't have the right equipment for this and buying it might end up being as expensive as getting a technician...
 
i looked up your listed wall outlets -

Note the 11dB loss for connected device whether data or TV, 3dB on the bypass.
So the loss between any two devices is 22 dB +n*3 dB + cable loss (? dB)
So minimum 23-24 dB probable loss, higher for each wall plate bypassed. If your cable path is going through a 3-4 outlet port splitter, the loss is likely up in the 32-36 dB range just for one pair.
Not sure what the power budget is for the modems, but you may be seeing power limits of the modems for your cable plant. What you are seeing for a disconnected wall plate is either the bypass or a parallel path through the splitter likely.

You would have to get a continuity ring out tester kit , disconnect all the cables and one by one map the path out for each and then add them back one by one.

Is the splitter amplified as well ?

One possibility is that one of the wall cable to plate connections is oxidized/corroded on the core conductor and generating higher losses than rated or there is a poor termination of the cable allowing the shield to touch the conductor.
 
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i looked up your listed wall outlets -

Note the 11dB loss for connected device whether data or TV, 3dB on the bypass.
So the loss between any two devices is 22 dB +n*3 dB + cable loss (? dB)
So minimum 23-24 dB probable loss, higher for each wall plate bypassed. If your cable path is going through a 3-4 outlet port splitter, the loss is likely up in the 32-36 dB range just for one pair.
Not sure what the power budget is for the modems, but you may be seeing power limits of the modems for your cable plant. What you are seeing for a disconnected wall plate is either the bypass or a parallel path through the splitter likely.

You would have to get a continuity ring out tester kit , disconnect all the cables and one by one map the path out for each and then add them back one by one.

Is the splitter amplified as well ?

One possibility is that one of the wall cable to plate connections is oxidized/corroded on the core conductor and generating higher losses than rated or there is a poor termination of the cable allowing the shield to touch the conductor.
Did you happen to connect one to the Data port and any of the others to the TV port ? Some signal will propagate as the filter is not that strong at 5-204 MHz ( >60dB ) and at above 258 MHz - 1800 MHz it is weaker -( >25 dB) . The loss between those two ranges is unknown.
 
Yeah, I checked my G.hn adapters, they can tolerate up to 75dB loss
i looked up your listed wall outlets -

Note the 11dB loss for connected device whether data or TV, 3dB on the bypass.
So the loss between any two devices is 22 dB +n*3 dB + cable loss (? dB)
So minimum 23-24 dB probable loss, higher for each wall plate bypassed. If your cable path is going through a 3-4 outlet port splitter, the loss is likely up in the 32-36 dB range just for one pair.

I teste with Devolo Gigabridge (no specification on the attenuation they tolerate) but also with the gigacopper ones, which support up to 75dB attenuation:

"We use very powerful G.hn chipsets: up to approx. 35dB attenuation on the line, the full bandwidth of 1.5Gbit/s is achieved, at 45-50dB – approx. 1Gbit/s, at 75dB – still approx. 100Mbit/s."

I also replaced two of the Axing 967-11X with F-connector to drive down attenuation. The two junction boxes in question are still present on the wall, but all they contain now is two coaxial cables connected via an F-connector.

Hence from basement to last socket, I have 3db (first Axing wall outlet bypass attenuation, Room 2, Floor 1) + 3db (second axing wall outlet bypass attenuation, living room, floor 1) + 9dB ( lass wall outlet, Axing 967-09X, Room 4, floor 2) = 15dB. (The G.hn device in the basement is connected directly to the cable, there is no wall outlet)

Attenuation from cables (there's probably 20-30m of cable from basement to floor 1) and stuff in the walls I don't know about comes on top, of course.


Is the splitter amplified as well ?

Only the cable modem is connected to this. The coaxial cabling the G.hn devices are connected to is disconnected from the main house splitter, it's independent.
 
Did you happen to connect one to the Data port and any of the others to the TV port ? Some signal will propagate as the filter is not that strong at 5-204 MHz ( >60dB ) and at above 258 MHz - 1800 MHz it is weaker -( >25 dB) . The loss between those two ranges is unknown.

No, each G.hn device is only connected to the data port, except the one in the basement, which is directly connected to the coax cable, no wall outlet.
 
You would have to get a continuity ring out tester kit , disconnect all the cables and one by one map the path out for each and then add them back one by one.

Missed this, sorry. Ok, I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and do this when no one's home (disconnecting internet is a serious crime nowadays in my home). Any tester kit you can recommend?
 
not particularly. Just make it as easy as possible for yourself. Obviously, you have continuity, but it seems like something else is still connected/wrong and you want those other points to light up during testing. Maybe the path isn't what you are assuming. Continuity testing is just from one end of the cable to the presumed other end.
Have you tried just the four Gh.nn modems on short pieces of coax to see if it is something with one of the units before you go chasing cabling ? i don't know about the Gh.nn devices, but on moca, first test is on about a meter of RG6. Or maybe with the power supply on one ?
Possible impedance mismatch somewhere ?
Does it matter which wall node you add the 4th Gh.nn device to after the other 3 are stable ?
 
Have you tried just the four Gh.nn modems on short pieces of coax to see if it is something with one of the units before you go chasing cabling ?
I did not try this but I replaced one G.hn device from GigaCopper and I tried two vendors in total (devolo as well), with similar results (unstable with 4+ devices on the same coax medium). Hence I estimate the probability quite low that the issue is with the current G.hn devices. (I still have both vendors, I planned on reselling one of the two once I get this stable).
Does it matter which wall node you add the 4th Gh.nn device to after the other 3 are stable ?
No it does not: when there are four G.hn devices plugged in and I experience issues, I can unplug any of the 3 G.hn devices in the flat, everything stabilizes immediately.

It's very strange, it's like there is some reflection/induction somewhere and it's so bad that starting 4 devices the G.hn devices can't deal with it anymore, it becomes too much.
 
i had similar issue with some powerline AV1200 devices years ago. A single pair on the house wiring was fine. As soon as i added a third, on a different circuit , the network collapsed. Bandwidth dropped and was unusable. Is was if they could not resolve whose turn it was to communicate. i suspected too much signal loss/distortion across the power distribution wires.

Do you have encryption/security enabled ?

i would try the simple test of 3 then 4 modems on short pieces of coax before i went tearing into the coax. You can even use the removed wall plates in the testing to give some drop.
 

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