connecting two buildings and barbeque

[System Error Message]

layer 1 being physical you can do with multiple different devices/ports/switches. For example on mikrotik with switches you can create switch groups and it would switch on that. Any network medium is layer 1. Layer 2 is where the communication starts. In the past some LANs wouldnt have IP addresses and would just use MAC addresses (old games used the IPX protocol which worked using MAC). Wifi works on both layer 1 being the medium and layer 2 for communication so it doesnt do layer 3 so if you segment layer 3 on wifi 2 clients connected to the same SSID can see each other through some of the protocols that use layer 2 so to segment with wifi you need vlans on the wire side tied to their own SSIDs for wifi. You can use active vlans over wifi but that means client configuration and windows networking lacks a lot of advanced stuff unless you use windows server.

Dont worry even strong signal strength + directional isnt enough to cook things but wire is always preferred. For 60 ft you can roll ethernet, the main question is whether you place it on the ground, under or hang it across the buildings (assuming there is no road in between). A gaming PC uses 300-400W while benchmarking and that only heats up a pizza as it would be equivalent to a 300-400W cooker. Cookers use way more watts (between 1-2KW) so if you had enough PCs or components you could route the heat and cook with it. A strong AP usually is rated for 1.5W output so that just means 3W in their communication zone if you have a directional bridge and since wifi dissipates theres not much to worry about. The sun radiates way more energy than a few measly watts.

Ethernet being the fastest and cheapest is spec for up to 100M but the shorter the cable the better.

 

[jaro.filip]

... the Router/AP's - can either use them as routers, or just set them up as AP's depending on your needs/requirements (e.g. is the second building a Rental?, then maybe VLAN a Router there, otherwise just make it an AP)

Hi sfx2000,
right now I use have all devices under the main internet router (Speedport) set as APs. Although it is working, it is not what I want. I am living in the second house and will share my neighbor`s internet connection. They have the main Speedport 2i router and one small bridged router configured as AP.
My intention is to create my own network separated from the neighbor while sharing his internet connection. I wish to have my house and garden covered by a low output signal from localized APs using one SSID/password everywhere. From what I have read the WAN is a good choice for this.

 

[jaro.filip]

PS
If your internet router supports VLANs with separate IP network addresses you could run it that way. Divide your network into separate VLANs with your 2 IP network addresses.

Hi, coxhaus,

I do not see in any of the devices an option to create VLAN. Because of this and also because I wish to create a separated network working under main one a WAN is still the best option. Do you know about other option without spending bucks on new devices?

 

[jaro.filip]

Hi System Error Message,
thanks very much, I appreciate your understanding of my limited knowledge as I am a laymen. Although this is a theoretical knowledge going far beyond of what I intended to achieve here it will help me to make correct decisions. Coxhaus already tried to tell me this and thanks to your comprehensive explanation I hopefully understand it. In short: main internet modem as a hardware is Layer 1. When it communicates with devices connected to it (e.g. a PC, tablet, phone, an AP further down the line) then this is the Layer 2. If I create a new sub-network (WAN) this will be layer 3, right?
Regarding the vlan, I am still not sure that this is what I need. Am I right that If I create a WAN, a device connected to WAN via WiFi will not see a device connected to the main internet router via its own different WiFi?

Regarding the WiFi output, you are perfectly correct that any household WiFi will be far less powerful than a kitchen microwave or a cooker and I also agree with your statement: "Ethernet being the fastest and cheapest is spec for up to 100M" .
I also believe that electromagnetic smog is dangerous. My WiFi will be operating 24/7. My phone gets heated after a 20min phone call. A WiFi AP device is warm due to the signal it produces. I do not want my body being exposed to anything more than absolutely necessary. And of course I plan to have children Due to these concerns, I stick to wires whenever possible

 

[gatorback]

My experience in a similar situation was that 5GHz between Asus Routers was that 5Ghz easily bridged between two buildings (through two walls). In all likeliness there will not be a lot of traffic on the 2.4 ISM band, however, 5Ghz normally has less traffic. Consider using Ubiquiti Nanostations as bridges as they are inexpensive and designed for this purpose.

I prefer wired solutions, however, when outdoor there is the risk of lightning zorching the network: that's why I setup the transceivers indoors.

 

[jaro.filip]

Hi Gatorback, I am happy for every opinion.

I am currently checking two options: WAN and VLAN. VLAN has a great potential. I have read the article Degrub posted here and I am not sure if I can do that.
I know about ubiquiti. I have checked Ubiquiti unifi long range AP and nanostation. 5GHz band is more suspectible to weather and as I mentioned before I prefer cable. At worst I can operate at the LAN and share it with my neighbor.
Besides that it is also matter of investment and using an existing equipment. 100 yards of ethernet cable costs the same as one ubiquiti AP, and I will definitely need at least three of those.
I still appreciate your post. thanks for your time.

 

[degrub]

Hi Gatorback, I am happy for every opinion.

I am currently checking two options: WAN and VLAN. VLAN has a great potential. I have read the article Degrub posted here and I am not sure if I can do that.
I know about ubiquiti. I have checked Ubiquiti unifi long range AP and nanostation. 5GHz band is more suspectible to weather and as I mentioned before I prefer cable. At worst I can operate at the LAN and share it with my neighbor.
Besides that it is also matter of investment and using an existing equipment. 100 yards of ethernet cable costs the same as one ubiquiti AP, and I will definitely need at least three of those.
I still appreciate your post. thanks for your time.

I looked at the rev1 speedport entry 2i manual. It does not seem to have any firewall or vlan capability. If you want to isolate you and your neighbor's traffic, you will need to get a firewall and run one connection from the speedport to it and then one connection to their wifi router, one connection to your first router, and set up rules to block traffic from each other. If either of you are using the speedport's wireless, you may have to either turn it off or replace it with a device capable of the above and compatible with the ISP's network. Assuming your top router has a static ip address set, you might be able to just block all access from a dhcp range ( your neighbor) to your router. You would have to do the same on their router. I don't know how secure or if that would actually work. It would only work if no one is using the speedport wireless as your devices could always get to those ip addresses, i think.

 

[degrub]

I looked at the rev1 speedport entry 2i manual. It does not seem to have any firewall or vlan capability. If you want to isolate you and your neighbor's traffic, you will need to get a firewall and run one connection from the speedport to it and then one connection to their wifi router, one connection to your first router, and set up rules to block traffic from each other. If either of you are using the speedport's wireless, you may have to either turn it off or replace it with a device capable of the above and compatible with the ISP's network. Assuming your top router has a static ip address set, you might be able to just block all access from a dhcp range ( your neighbor) to your router. You would have to do the same on their router. I don't know how secure or if that would actually work. It would only work if no one is using the speedport wireless as your devices could always get to those ip addresses, i think.

A couple other questions
Does your building B's power distribution panel (fuse or breaker box) have its own earth connection or does it have an earthing wire that goes back to the building A earthing connection ? Or vice versa ?

Do you have lightning common ?

 

[jaro.filip]

Hi Degrub, you are amazing ! Thank you so much for your help. I am reading about the VLAN option that you proposed earlier. It is interesting and very promising especially since I found out a VLAN option in the router settings:

However the steps mentioned in the article you gave me are complex to say at least I am not sure that I will be able to handle that For example it requires me to enter here some kind of a number. I typed 1, but have no clue what does it mean :/

 

[coxhaus]

Use wire if you can. Wire is always better than wireless and less trouble.

 

[sfx2000]

Use wire if you can. Wire is always better than wireless and less trouble.

I agree - however, I think OP is looking for a more cost-efficient solution (e.g. cheap and good enough) as burying an ethernet cable (or two, noah's ark principle, always put two in if you're digging) and the grounding concerns means that guys in white trucks need to visit, and they're not cheap, and they charge by the hour...

But a 55 meter (60 yard, 180 feet) run - it's not trivial, and perhaps it'll take some pro level consulting with a low-voltage Network/Telecom tech - they'll know what works and what doesn't...

 

[coxhaus]

If he is looking for cheap and good enough he mite consider just running CAT5e in black water pipe. I ran regular in wall wire in the cheap black water pipe to my neighbors house so we could game many years ago. It lasted more than 5 years until we moved. I only had one near lightening strike which burned out the port it was plugged into. I just moved the wire to a different port and it ran fine. It sure was cheap to install.

I used ends on the black water pipe and sealed it real well so the pipe would not fill with water. I trenched it with a shovel about 3 or 4 inches below the ground. I put the wire in the pipe and then buried it a little at a time. I then used a flush wall jack in the wall where it terminated.

 

[jaro.filip]

That is a great idea. I was not thinking into details about how exactly place the cable and this is a very efficient option provided for me. I am glad I found this forum

 

[L&LD]

If he is looking for cheap and good enough he mite consider just running CAT5e in black water pipe. I ran regular in wall wire in the cheap black water pipe to my neighbors house so we could game many years ago. It lasted more than 5 years until we moved. I only had one near lightening strike which burned out the port it was plugged into. I just moved the wire to a different port and it ran fine. It sure was cheap to install.

I used ends on the black water pipe and sealed it real well so the pipe would not fill with water. I trenched it with a shovel about 3 or 4 inches below the ground. I put the wire in the pipe and then buried it a little at a time. I then used a flush wall jack in the wall where it terminated.

What is your climate like in your area? Deep freeze in winter? Flooding (or at least heavy rain) in summer?

3" or 4" below ground level is not very deep at all.

 

[sfx2000]

Between two building is fine - going back to OP - is the Barbecue really needed?

If not, it simplifies things big time, as then it just becomes a point to point run - the Barbecue, might consider lighting it up via WiFi when needed..

 

[jaro.filip]

Hi L&LD and SFX ,
Mediterranean climate with hot summer, mild winter, 300 sunny days and less than 30 rainy days per year.
I know it is heaven
Besides the grounding it simplifies also electricity needs, because I won`t need power for the router at the BBQ.
I am considering an AP at the balcony of the building to get a WiFi coverage around the BBQ. It might work. First I will try the coverage from building. Hopefully tomorrow

 

[CaptainSTX]

What is your climate like in your area? Deep freeze in winter? Flooding (or at least heavy rain) in summer?

3" or 4" below ground level is not very deep at all.

Cable companies spade bury many of their UG drops from the pedestal to the house and they aren't any deeper than 3" - 4". When I lived in Chicago I never saw frost push a drop up through the turf.

 

[sfx2000]

Mediterranean climate with hot summer, mild winter, 300 sunny days and less than 30 rainy days per year.
I know it is heaven
Besides the grounding it simplifies also electricity needs, because I won`t need power for the router at the BBQ.
I am considering an AP at the balcony of the building to get a WiFi coverage around the BBQ. It might work. First I will try the coverage from building. Hopefully tomorrow

Sounds almost like San Diego - most boring job in San Diego is the TV Weatherman

Would be nice to see what happens with WiFi in the Barbecue area...

 

[System Error Message]

layer 1 is where the physical stuff happen, doesnt matter what sort of wire or wireless is used or even quantum particles. Layer 1 segmentation is done physically or via switch configs such as switch groups.

Layer 2 is the transport layer. Many LANs and even older networks use layer 2 which is much simpler but lacks many features. Segmentations here normally use vlans.
Layer 3 is the IP layer which uses IPs and has more features. Each layer 3 packet is packed into a layer 2 packet and then sent. Segmentations here normally use subnets.

The internet works on layer 3 routing but many networks are isolated using NAT.

So if you want to segment your network and if your 2 buildings are all part of the same company sharing the same things than layer 2 segmentation is sufficient.

If the 2 buildings do not have a road between each other than you can hang cables from one building to another so no digging or permit needed. If it is legal to hang a clothes line between both buildings than you can hang a cable there.

Wifi with directional antennas can be used but if the AP has 3 antennas than you need 3 directionals pointing to the other 3 directional antennas which can be a chore. Although wire is usually the best way of connecting buildings it also depends on the speed you want between them. With wires it is easy to get more bandwidth by using a bundle of them and switches capable of teaming whereas with APs you cant simply do that. I know mikrotik has APs with mini PCIe so you can have multiple links and do some load balancing but it is complicated and only a few APs are capable of this not to mention you would need to make sure you have enough LAN ports and do teaming if the wifi bandwidth exceeds ethernet (take 60% theoratical wifi bandwidth as expected throughput).