Finally bailing on AiMesh in favor of Ubiquiti

[Val D.]

As for Ubiquiti...well...it does work.

Omada does similar or better job for less. EAP225v3 is $58, EAP245v3 is $87, OC200 is $87.
UniFi has a better looking software and is more often updated. I like both systems, better than consumer AIO for sure.

 

[Trentors]

+100000 This is ultimately the only "right" takeaway here.

@Trentors - If Ruckus or anyone else's claims bother you that much, I'm not sure what to tell you. Perhaps create your own test with a mix of identically-spec'd APs, controllers and clients for whatever use-case you're looking to accommodate, and see for yourself. Maybe TP-Link wins out. If so, awesome.

Maybe anyone should do that before saying one vendor is better than another.... You did agree with haykong's undocumented claims about Ruckus being so much better in every task (and the "enterprise wifi chipset" myth).

 

[Trip]

And that's exactly what I've done, on multiple job sites, with Ruckus, UI, and numerous other brands of spare enterprise and consumer gear:

I'll make this disclaimer right up front: my stance comes only from experience of a few dozen deployments of both UniFi and Ruckus.

I'm not sure what you're agenda is here, but if you'd like help in perhaps arranging a group test of brands/models to evaluate some particular feature(s), perhaps its best to start your own thread? Or maybe write to Tim and see if he'd be open to collaborating? I'll send in a spare Ruckus AP or two if it would help.

 

[Trentors]

And that's exactly what I've done, on multiple job sites, with Ruckus, UI, and numerous other brands of spare enterprise and consumer gear:I'm not sure what you're agenda is here, but if you'd like help in perhaps arranging a group test of brands/models to evaluate some particular feature(s), perhaps its best to start your own thread? Or maybe write to Tim and see if he'd be open to collaborating? I'll send in a spare Ruckus AP or two if it would help.

Yes but without a direct comparison isn't it a bit anecdoctal?

I am basically repeating my agenda over and over again. But I will gladly repeat: It is to stop people saying one device is better than another based on undocumented claims. Why have reviews then?
And it is not just about Ubiquiti vs Ruckus. I have also seen BS claims about APs like the UAP PROs being better than "consumer" gear from Asus. The UAP Pros a terrible performers in both range and throughput compared to the many higher end Asus routers. The "HD" line is vastly improved though.

 

[Val D.]

Guys, there is probably something you have no experience with. There is a different "flavor" in WiFi, as I learned recently here on SNB. This could be what different customers are looking for, who knows? As it was explained, one WiFi may sound harsh, other WiFi nice and smooth... like in audio systems, transistor vs tube amplifiers. Not sure yet how this technology works on APs though, I'm doing thorough research as we speak. My own APs sound pretty harsh to me now.

 

[Trip]

Interesting Val. Could you link to more info on what you're referencing, if there is any?

 

[MichaelCG]

I have also seen BS claims about APs like the UAP PROs being better than "consumer" gear from Asus. The UAP Pros a terrible performers in both range and throughput compared to the many higher end Asus routers. The "HD" line is vastly improved though.

I don't have UAP-AC-PRO, but have UAP-AC-LR and I absolutely will stand behind stating that they are superior in stability than the Asus routers they replaced.

Are they as fast on single client? Nope, Asus wins. My Asus was a 3x3 AC device while my UniFi are just 2x2...so easily have speed differences.
Are they plenty fast with multiple clients? Yep, UI wins.
Can I centrally manage them? Yep, UI wins.
Do I have to reboot them on a regular basis? Nope, UI wins. The only reboots these get are due to updates or power outages.
Do they look like odd alien spiders? Nope, UI wins. They look like big smoke detectors and could easily be in visible locations without much notice.
Do I have to have a wall wart nearby to power them? Nope, UI wins. PoE is great...when it works correctly.
Did I have to spend a fortune on them? Nope, UI wins. A single BFR will "usually" cost north of $200 (not always...prices are all over). While I can usually get 2-3 UniFi (or TP-Link) devices that can be better distributed.

In my use case, the PRO didn't bring enough value to party to justify the price differences. So I landed on the LR and InWall for my house. They can be out in the open without my wife being highly annoyed (they still annoy her, but she mostly tolerates them to an extent) while my Asus was required to be hidden and completely out of site. They are distributed across the house so I have decent performance in 95% of my house instead of 50% decent, 25% marginal, and 25% dead zone.

Again, it really depends on your use case which solution is right for you. A single BFR may work for some, but it for sure doesn't work for me. Having cheaper distributed radios makes way more sense from an RF perspective to cover my needs.

 

[Trentors]

I don't have UAP-AC-PRO, but have UAP-AC-LR and I absolutely will stand behind stating that they are superior in stability than the Asus routers they replaced.

Are they as fast on single client? Nope, Asus wins. My Asus was a 3x3 AC device while my UniFi are just 2x2...so easily have speed differences.
Are they plenty fast with multiple clients? Yep, UI wins.
Can I centrally manage them? Yep, UI wins.
Do I have to reboot them on a regular basis? Nope, UI wins. The only reboots these get are due to updates or power outages.
Do they look like odd alien spiders? Nope, UI wins. They look like big smoke detectors and could easily be in visible locations without much notice.
Do I have to have a wall wart nearby to power them? Nope, UI wins. PoE is great...when it works correctly.
Did I have to spend a fortune on them? Nope, UI wins. A single BFR will "usually" cost north of $200 (not always...prices are all over). While I can usually get 2-3 UniFi (or TP-Link) devices that can be better distributed.

In my use case, the PRO didn't bring enough value to party to justify the price differences. So I landed on the LR and InWall for my house. They can be out in the open without my wife being highly annoyed (they still annoy her, but she mostly tolerates them to an extent) while my Asus was required to be hidden and completely out of site. They are distributed across the house so I have decent performance in 95% of my house instead of 50% decent, 25% marginal, and 25% dead zone.

Again, it really depends on your use case which solution is right for you. A single BFR may work for some, but it for sure doesn't work for me. Having cheaper distributed radios makes way more sense from an RF perspective to cover my needs.

- No the AP PROs are not faster with multiple clients. It may be "plenty" but you dont win by being plenty when something is better. That is such a bias.
- Yes you can centrally control Asus routers with AiMesh. Unifi are better but you are setting up like it is not possible with Asus.
- No you dont have to reboot Asus routers. I have MANY set up many Asus routers the last 10 years. If it is a proper well supported device it NEVER needs to reboot. We only do it for firmware updates.
- Yes Asus routers are extremly ugly. But they are targeted "gamers" and that usually means bad taste ;-) But I totally agree. I have a Unifi Flex HD centrally in the living room. Imagine having an Asus router such a place...
- True they are not POE.
- Yes you do. The OLD Unifi APs like the PROs, Lites and LR are terrible performers. People who dont get that have simply not tried other devices. The Nano, Flex, "regular" HD and even UDM is stupidly superior in performance and range. You get what you pay for. The TP-Link EAP225v3 is the odd one though. They are extremely great for the price.

And yes the Asus routers needs to be out of sight. But the old myth about the old Unifi APs being better at everything is not true. It comes from a lack of experience with other products and a bit of fanboy-ism (and remember I use Unifi at home so I am not biased towards Asu

 

[Val D.]

No you dont have to reboot Asus routers.

Looks like you don't have much of experience with some newer ASUS "gaming" creations.

But the old myth about the old Unifi APs being better at everything is not true.

They are only better in WiFi supporting multiple connected clients. No ASUS Aura RGB lights, sorry.

 

[MichaelCG]

- Yes you do. The OLD Unifi APs like the PROs, Lites and LR are terrible performers. People who dont get that have simply not tried other devices. The Nano, Flex, "regular" HD and even UDM is stupidly superior in performance and range. You get what you pay for. The TP-Link EAP225v3 is the odd one though. They are extremely great for the price.

What do you consider "terrible" performance? Curious your experiences with the newer UniFi gear? I avoided them during my build out due to price, availability, and firmware stability wasn't there yet (this was 2+ years ago).

 

[Trentors]

Looks like you don't have much of experience with some newer ASUS "gaming" creations.

Oh yes I have. Read my post #12.
But I will gladly repeat again (again): "I used ROG routers from Asus and they are simply not very stable (the none-ROG stuff are more stable). And the lack of updates annoyed me. GT-AC5300 had issues in AiMesh since september due to an software issue (and also the infamous Let's Encrypt bug) but no stable releases has fixed it yet."

ROG is the worst. And since it is a fork of Asus-WRT it means it has more bugs and is updated less frequently. BUT the routers we have with "classic" Asus-WRT like RT-AC68U (many of those), RT-AC88U and RT-AC86U just works. Lots of users everyday and no reboots is ever needed. We only do it for firmware updates.

They are only better in WiFi supporting multiple connected clients. No ASUS Aura RGB lights, sorry.

Is that proven? Or an assumption?

 

[Trentors]

What do you consider "terrible" performance? Curious your experiences with the newer UniFi gear? I avoided them during my build out due to price, availability, and firmware stability wasn't there yet (this was 2+ years ago).

Limited range and low throughput. I first tried the USG and some PROs. Compared to my old RT-AC3200 the range was not good and the throughput quite limited. Then Ubiquiti released the HD range and what a difference:
https://www.custompcreview.com/reviews/ubiquiti-unifi-ap-ac-hd-access-point-review/

Now I have the Flex, Nanos and UDM and the throughput is close to the GT-AC5300 but the range is more limited but still better than the PROs. I also recently added a Unifi LR to the mix for testing but it went back. The Nanos have better throughput (I knew that) but the range on 5Ghz was also much better.

And yes the Nanos was far from stable a few years ago and they are still improving it. The latest RC firmware has "throughput improvements" for all the MediaTek based APs (Flex, Nano, UDM).

 

[L&LD]

Looking at the link in the post above and clicking the 'price' for the HD model was a little funny. As much as an RT-AX88U with none of the benefits. The included performance graphs would indicate to me that the RT-AX88U is above this model in pure 'line of sight' performance.

My question though is what Amazon states for this model. 500 users? How is this possible? Is it not using an /24 network? And even if it is, there is no way it would give even half (or one quarter) of that maximum usable WiFi with a max 1733Mbps total throughput capacity on the 5GHz band, correct?

 

[Trentors]

Looking at the link in the post above and clicking the 'price' for the HD model was a little funny. As much as an RT-AX88U with none of the benefits. The included performance graphs would indicate to me that the RT-AX88U is above this model in pure 'line of sight' performance.

My question though is what Amazon states for this model. 500 users? How is this possible? Is it not using an /24 network? And even if it is, there is no way it would give even half (or one quarter) of that maximum usable WiFi with a max 1733Mbps total throughput capacity on the 5GHz band, correct?

Dont buy into what is says on the box. Anything more than 40 heavy users will according to testing be as bad as every other AP. And yes it is expensive though the Nanos have the same throughput and 5GHz range (in my own rough testing - Lawrence System actually tested the Nanos to be even better) and cost much less. They are rated for 200 users but that is BS.

 

[L&LD]

The RT-AX88U plus RMerlin, amtm, Unbound Manager (and other scripts) makes my 1Gbps up/down symmetrical ISP service as fast or faster than any commercial WiFi network I have ever used. I don't buy what it says on the box. I believe what I see and buy (now) and can replicate at will.

Personally, I'd rather have a router on a shelf somewhere than a ceiling-mounted glowing blue ring above me. But what do I know?

Also, for myself, a great range isn't important (that was reached and surpassed by the RT-N66U so many years ago for my home), but what is important is how responsive and how much throughput the network can push while keeping that responsiveness 'feel' high. The pinnacle right now is the RT-AX88U with no small role being the 1GB RAM plus the quad-core CPU inside. I can max both the RAM and almost peg all CPU's and still not bring the RT-AX88U down.

With my recent (highly successful, I may add) foray into AiMesh for a customer and RMerlin's recent post that the RT-AX58U may be potentially supported in the future, I may add an RT-AX58U to my home to extensively test AiMesh myself. Even though I know I don't need it. The RT-AX88U covers the property easily and exceeds the throughput any device may require even at the farthest (outdoor) reaches.

I am expecting to either return the RT-AX58U or sell it after I've tested it enough. Or, it may turn out that more throughput will be noticed and I'll be forced to keep it.

Either way, it will be much less expensive, much more performant (based on the 2x RT-AC86U in AiMesh I have experience with so far) and much more flexible to use as part of a larger AiMesh network or individual routers instead, vs. the $400 a pop HD's that seem so dated right now.

So much buying and testing to do and so little time to do it in.

 

[Trentors]

What I meant by "on the box" was Unifi's claim about 500+ clients for the UAP-HD

Sure I agree. But then the Flex HD entered and showed that you can have a nice AP centrally on a shelf that looks discrete and performs well (and the LEDs are easy to turn off).

I have not tried the AX88U but have a lot of experience with GT-AC5300 that has the same amount of RAM and same CPU. But I also have to say that UDM I have instead is very fast and responsive no matter how far I push it. Even with IPS on (but so was the GT-AC5300). The stability of the UDM is better though even though the firmware is far from mature yet. But I blame ROG for that.

Yes I do agree with you. And the price of the regular HDs are hardly worth it when the Nano/Flex are such much cheaper and has such good performance. There is a reason they are using this chipset and setup in so many devices now.

Hehe yes. When networking becomes a hobby it does take its toll on money and time (and sometimes the family) ;-)

 

[Val D.]

Is that proven?

Yes... in airports, warehouses, hospitals, schools, resorts, shopping malls, businesses, etc. It works best with multiple APs in closer range, this is how the system is designed to work. My own experience is limited to about 550 units of this type. Reading Sam Chen reviews now, the Hardware and Technology Enthusiast and SSD Evangelist. You guys may continue the discussion about RT-AX routers with USB sticks superiority, if you want to. Don't forget the WiFi "flavor" in the process.

 

[Trentors]

Yes... in airports, warehouses, hospitals, schools, resorts, shopping malls, businesses, etc. It works best with multiple APs in closer range, this is how the system is designed to work. My own experience is limited to about 550 units of this type. Reading Sam Chen reviews now, the Hardware and Technology Enthusiast and SSD Evangelist. You guys may continue the discussion about RT-AX routers with USB sticks superiority, if you want to. Don't forget the WiFi "flavor" in the process.

There is no way that it is actually tested against a common Asus router. You may believe it works this way but nobody I know have done an actual test of this and posted the results.

I am so tired of all these myths. We have some the without any proof claims Ruckus is superior. They cannot back it up though. Then we have some guys claiming Unifi is better than Asus a multiple users but without any evidence to back it up. Sure we have the right to have our own opinions but disguise them as facts is not okay.

That is probably why Ubiquiti sponsered the whole test with them vs Ruckus, Meraki etc. Actually testing is needed to cut through the myths and beliefs. And yes you may have had set up 550 units but that does not tell you one thing about how a competing product handles multiple clients.

And it is a lovely catch 22 to always claim a product is superior in multi-clients scenarios. Hardly anyone is ever able to test this so anyone can come up with this claim untested. That is why NOBODY should ever come with such a claim because they have no actual idea.

TIM we need you to come back and do actual testing so we can settle this ;-)

 

[Val D.]

I am so tired of all these myths.

Then you need some rest, perhaps. Expedia is pretty reliable in serving multiple clients.

 

[Trentors]

Then you need some rest, perhaps. Expedia is pretty reliable in serving multiple clients.

Because you are going to keep adding to them? ;-)
Sure. Have they done actual testing of multiple APs, routers etc. with mulitple clients. How to they actually determine what device to pick? Is there other factors than performance that is a deciding factor etc. You cannot shoehorn a companies decision to pick one device to fit into your argument. That is absurd.
That is like saying Ford makes the most fuel-efficient cars. Why would [insert big company here] otherwise choose them?