Help with planning home network

[drinkingbird]

There is no way you need four routers in a ~645 SqFt home. Unless the walls are concrete or similar, drop the need for APs.

A single connection will be superior to what you suggested previously.

You may still leave the slower connection for failover WAN mode though, for the peace of mind.

The FTTP connection is highly recommended over the cable modem, particularly where latency is concerned.

Taking the size of the home into consideration and the assumption that the walls are not concrete (until they are proven otherwise), the recommendations above are certainly overkill for a home network with wireless WiFi being the preferred connection choice and a single network throughout.

Multiple floors plus basement, garage, etc more than 1 AP may be needed/warranted.

We've already established we're taking about overkill here

 

[drinkingbird]

The category was already stated, as was the lack of concern for the cost. You may have missed that if you just skimmed the first few posts.

I did skim (was using mobile and my eyes aren't what they used to be). The assumption is usually that the poster is looking for a recommendation on what they need, but obviously an incorrect assumption in this case.

Still makes sense to properly design it and build in some room for growth. Not throwing a ton of extra devices in but ensuring the right number are there and they have the capacity.

If money is no object then a 10 gig off the shelf firewall/router and 10 gig switch, along with 1 to 3 decent wifi7 APs and call it a day.

 

[L&LD]

645 SqFt is a very small space. And consider that the length of the building can be extended vertically to give you an idea that three stories or more doesn't make too much of a difference (the construction of the floors, and the location of the main/single router, will though, of course).

The following link is proof of the above.

RT-AC3100 Report https://www.snbforums.com/threads/s...-go-with-the-rt-ac1900p-v3.34748/#post-281391

 

[OJay]

645 SqFt is a very small space. And consider that the length of the building can be extended vertically to give you an idea that three stories or more doesn't make too much of a difference (the construction of the floors, and the location of the main/single router, will though, of course).

The following link is proof of the above.

RT-AC3100 Report https://www.snbforums.com/threads/s...-go-with-the-rt-ac1900p-v3.34748/#post-281391

No house shaming please xD. Things are smaller in Europe.

On a serious note though. Are there any generally recommended boxes to install OPNsense/pfSense on? Also if i ask OPNsense vs pfSense will I start a civil war.

 

[L&LD]

Not house shaming at all. Just trying to say that when today's wireless routers are rated for almost 10x the SqFt, thinking that needing a main router and 3 APs is probably going to cause more issues than it may solve.

 

[OJay]

I was joking don’t worry.

To that end though, it sounds like you’re saying just throwing one of these AP In the middle of the middle floor would probably be sufficient to provide wireless access to the whole house.

And as you have correctly assumed, internal walls are plasterboard (I think it’s maybe called something different in America?) with metal studs. But the floors(?) between floors(?) are concrete, besides the 2x2 holes that the stairs live in.

 

[drinkingbird]

I was joking don’t worry.

To that end though, it sounds like you’re saying just throwing one of these AP In the middle of the middle floor would probably be sufficient to provide wireless access to the whole house.

And as you have correctly assumed, internal walls are plasterboard (I think it’s maybe called something different in America?) with metal studs. But the floors(?) between floors(?) are concrete, besides the 2x2 holes that the stairs live in.

Metal studs can be problematic (a bit of faraday cage effect) and obviously concrete is too. But may make sense to start with one and see, and add more if needed. But if your floors are concrete, you're probably looking at one per floor (including basement if you want it there).

 

[Tech Junky]

@OJay The AP I listed covers 1300sq ft no problem. I put it where I sit most often and paired with an AX411 w/ 2.5GE backhaul can hit 1.7gbps to the server on the LAN. I have the same construction of drywall / metal studs and it's not an issue. Single floor though in a condo building surrounded by idiots that don't tune their network.

So, since you nailed down the coverage needs I would start with a wired router as mentioned, POE injector / AP, and a switch for the aggregation point. If you find you need more WIFI then just add another POE/AP to the mix. KISS works well.

For the mini router I would go with the 4-port if you're considering the dual WAN option and you can reconfigure it when needed or otherwise it's got ample power to filter traffic using something like pihole instead of adguard. There are open source options out there for the rest of the stuff you screen shotted as well. This is where using a DIY setup would be beneficial since you already have most of the stuff and just need to add a NIC to the mix to increase port density / speed.

 

[drinkingbird]

@OJay The AP I listed covers 1300sq ft no problem. I put it where I sit most often and paired with an AX411 w/ 2.5GE backhaul can hit 1.7gbps to the server on the LAN. I have the same construction of drywall / metal studs and it's not an issue. Single floor though in a condo building surrounded by idiots that don't tune their network.

So, since you nailed down the coverage needs I would start with a wired router as mentioned, POE injector / AP, and a switch for the aggregation point. If you find you need more WIFI then just add another POE/AP to the mix. KISS works well.

For the mini router I would go with the 4-port if you're considering the dual WAN option and you can reconfigure it when needed or otherwise it's got ample power to filter traffic using something like pihole instead of adguard. There are open source options out there for the rest of the stuff you screen shotted as well. This is where using a DIY setup would be beneficial since you already have most of the stuff and just need to add a NIC to the mix to increase port density / speed.

OP has 2 floors with concrete between them so most likely at least 2 APs (3 if they want basement coverage). Start with one and add as needed is proper advice, unless you can get a bundle deal on 2 or 3, then it might make sense to assume the concrete is going to leave you wanting and just go for it.

 

[Tech Junky]

concrete

My bldg is concrete pancakes as well. I still see tons of wifi.

 

[Tech9]

@OJay

DIY yourself path for someone coming from Asus home router is going to be like "Naked and Afraid" challenge 60 days in South Africa. Unlikely to survive. Wi-Fi network planning advice from people living in North America to someone in Europe is like survivalist from Alaska giving advice to the guy above going to South Africa. What you want is going to cost in thousands when done properly with business equipment and requires networking knowledge. Wi-Fi planning has to be done on site by someone who knows how to do it. Otherwise you are facing a lot of wasted time in equipment exchange after few trial and error experiments. You can get all the "help" on a public forum like this, but don't forget you will be paying the bill at the end.

The equipment suggested above in the USA has available lower and higher 5GHz channels with 1000mW transmit power on both ranges. What you are going to get in Germany will have lower channels only and up to 200mw. For higher transmit power you have to go into DFS range. It may or may not work well in your area. I own places in both North America and Europe. They have completely different Wi-Fi setups tuned differently.

 

[Tech9]

I still see tons of wifi.

Some of the networks you see at -70dBm or lower are behind single wall or floor slab. This is what you get in Europe between two rooms/floors. Your single AP on 1/5 transmit power in Europe has no chance to cover this house. @OJay needs minimum 3x APs and in right places. I have 4x APs in my EU house in 120 sqm bungalow style brick and concrete. In my NA house 4x APs cover 560 sqm and most of the time only 3x are in use.

 

[tgl]

My bldg is concrete pancakes as well. I still see tons of wifi.

Same here in my new condo digs: the inter-unit walls and floors are all (alleged to be) solid concrete slabs, but they don't seem to do that much to suppress wifi signals. WiFi Explorer sees well over 100 SSIDs, which is about as bad as what I saw in my previous densely-wifi'd urban neighborhood of single-family homes. Concrete's reputation as a wifi blocker seems overstated.

 

[Tech Junky]

Concrete's reputation as a wifi blocker seems overstated.

Agree. You would think the steel rebar would block some of it but, not too much from the analyzer standpoint. As for the steel studs they don't do much either. At least not with my phone and AP talking to each other. That snapshot was even outside on the patio w/ the door closed. If I really amp things up for wifi snooping then I see signals from a block or more away. If people would just tune their systems then it would be a lot less info floating around in the air.

for what the laptop considers connectable it's a slimmer capture tough. Obviously the 2 in green are mine and of course when I had cable the xfinitywifi were accessible at decent speeds if needed while working on the 'router" if I needed to grab files or look something up. By taking up the lower 160mhz though I've managed to push the random boxes to the high band or my 2nd AP as well. The 2nd one is not configurable though as it's ISP provided. Some stats on the BLDG are 7 floors / 6 units per floor + 4 units above me. 2 units per floor are 1300 and on the opposite side of the floor is 4 units ~1100 in size. 3 units per half of the floor N/S. Floor above me though has a single unit stretching N/S and then 3 on the other side. Most use ATT and pay through the nose for very little BW. I've seen a couple of VZW FWA showing up while wondering around the building though so, there's that. The abuilding also has a cell site on the roof and possibly another one according to someone else in the building. Also have another cell site across the street on the E side and a pod on a pole on the W side.

Of course being so close to the site on the roof it impedes the signal and bandwidth but moving outside and ~50ft from the building dramatically boosts the speeds.

 

[drinkingbird]

Agree. You would think the steel rebar would block some of it but, not too much from the analyzer standpoint. As for the steel studs they don't do much either. At least not with my phone and AP talking to each other. That snapshot was even outside on the patio w/ the door closed. If I really amp things up for wifi snooping then I see signals from a block or more away. If people would just tune their systems then it would be a lot less info floating around in the air.

for what the laptop considers connectable it's a slimmer capture tough. Obviously the 2 in green are mine and of course when I had cable the xfinitywifi were accessible at decent speeds if needed while working on the 'router" if I needed to grab files or look something up. By taking up the lower 160mhz though I've managed to push the random boxes to the high band or my 2nd AP as well. The 2nd one is not configurable though as it's ISP provided. Some stats on the BLDG are 7 floors / 6 units per floor + 4 units above me. 2 units per floor are 1300 and on the opposite side of the floor is 4 units ~1100 in size. 3 units per half of the floor N/S. Floor above me though has a single unit stretching N/S and then 3 on the other side. Most use ATT and pay through the nose for very little BW. I've seen a couple of VZW FWA showing up while wondering around the building though so, there's that. The abuilding also has a cell site on the roof and possibly another one according to someone else in the building. Also have another cell site across the street on the E side and a pod on a pole on the W side.

Of course being so close to the site on the roof it impedes the signal and bandwidth but moving outside and ~50ft from the building dramatically boosts the speeds.
View attachment 52821

The amount of signal to show up on an analyzer can easily sneak through a doorway or window. But throughput is going to be crap.

 

[drinkingbird]

Same here in my new condo digs: the inter-unit walls and floors are all (alleged to be) solid concrete slabs, but they don't seem to do that much to suppress wifi signals. WiFi Explorer sees well over 100 SSIDs, which is about as bad as what I saw in my previous densely-wifi'd urban neighborhood of single-family homes. Concrete's reputation as a wifi blocker seems overstated.

Seeing an SSID on a wifi scanner means nothing. You just need a tiny beacon, not even bidirectional.

Concrete's reputation is concrete..... backed by physics and stuff.

 

[L&LD]

I was joking don’t worry.

To that end though, it sounds like you’re saying just throwing one of these AP In the middle of the middle floor would probably be sufficient to provide wireless access to the whole house.

And as you have correctly assumed, internal walls are plasterboard (I think it’s maybe called something different in America?) with metal studs. But the floors(?) between floors(?) are concrete, besides the 2x2 holes that the stairs live in.

I knew you were!

With concrete floors, one AP/node per floor may be needed (depending on the actual/specific floor).

Build this network slowly, don't assume 'theory' will translate directly to what will work 'practical'.

Even with concrete floors, I would consider a (slightly) modified version of the suggestions in the link below.

AiMesh Ideal Placement


If you wanted a wired backhaul AP/node on each level, the following is something to consider for the best coverage, and most reliable/stable operation (and more ideal client roaming) too.

This is looking at the entire area you wish covered from a side view of the long side of the home:

AiMesh router----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------AiMesh Node
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AiMesh Node-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------AiMesh Node

Ideally, each node would also be diagonally opposite the router/node above it, on each level.

 

[degrub]

Ceiling or wall mount ?

 

[RacerX330]

Here's what I learned when designing network for my new house.
CAT6/CAT6A cable is super cheap, run it everywhere and often =P
un-shielded

if the runs are under 75ft, they will be ready to run 10GB (the longest run in my house is 51ft) in the future

all WAPs should be POE and wired backhaul (all WAPs should have 2.5gbit hardwire LAN connection sockets minimum)

always run two cables for each location

hardwire absolutely everything that is practical to hardwire (TV's, Apple TV's, Fire cubes, Fire TVs, desktops, etc etc) (if you're putting in recessed electrical in the wall for mounted TVs, run 2 Ethernet cables nearby, you'll need them) e.g. in the room I use as my office there are 6 runs. (2 locations 3 runs each). Let the wired portion of your network do as much of the work as possible, with the WiFi providing connectivity for portable devices (phones, tablets, laptops) additionally, I personally prefer Apple TV 4k's because the interface is just so much faster than the TV itself, and Fire and Roku TVs constantly bitch and moan if they aren't connected, so I hardwired them...

in rooms where things might move around, run Ethernet to 2 locations (again always 2 per run, so in a room with 2 locations that's 4 cables)

2.5gbit with POE switches are going to be expensive even if they are unmanaged. if you want to run VLANS you must use managed switches.

it's worth the time and investment to mount a network rack with a dedicated patch panel, and label everything, spend the money upfront for a 24-port or 48-port patch panel, it's a bitch to replace it later

i personally believe that its good to choose a single platform and have all your hardware on that platform, e.g. cisco, zyxel (nebula), tp-link (omada). I personally went with Zyxel.

don't use ISP supplied hardware if possible, this may not be possible with AT&T Fiber for example, but at least you can configure theirs to just passthrough to your own router.

I chose to go with pfsense for routing, and built my own machine for that purpose, i value the ability to have total control over the gateway

with the speed of networks today, even if you're only on 1gbit, i see no need to physically segment out a "mancave" network. How much bandwidth could you expect to suck up on that? Keep in mind a 4k HDR stream is roughly 25Mbit as a reference

 

[drinkingbird]

Here's what I learned when designing network for my new house.
CAT6/CAT6A cable is super cheap, run it everywhere and often =P
un-shielded

if the runs are under 75ft, they will be ready to run 10GB (the longest run in my house is 51ft) in the future

all WAPs should be POE and wired backhaul (all WAPs should have 2.5gbit hardwire LAN connection sockets minimum)

always run two cables for each location

hardwire absolutely everything that is practical to hardwire (TV's, Apple TV's, Fire cubes, Fire TVs, desktops, etc etc) (if you're putting in recessed electrical in the wall for mounted TVs, run 2 Ethernet cables nearby, you'll need them) e.g. in the room I use as my office there are 6 runs. (2 locations 3 runs each). Let the wired portion of your network do as much of the work as possible, with the WiFi providing connectivity for portable devices (phones, tablets, laptops) additionally, I personally prefer Apple TV 4k's because the interface is just so much faster than the TV itself, and Fire and Roku TVs constantly bitch and moan if they aren't connected, so I hardwired them...

in rooms where things might move around, run Ethernet to 2 locations (again always 2 per run, so in a room with 2 locations that's 4 cables)

2.5gbit with POE switches are going to be expensive even if they are unmanaged. if you want to run VLANS you must use managed switches.

it's worth the time and investment to mount a network rack with a dedicated patch panel, and label everything, spend the money upfront for a 24-port or 48-port patch panel, it's a bitch to replace it later

i personally believe that its good to choose a single platform and have all your hardware on that platform, e.g. cisco, zyxel (nebula), tp-link (omada). I personally went with Zyxel.

don't use ISP supplied hardware if possible, this may not be possible with AT&T Fiber for example, but at least you can configure theirs to just passthrough to your own router.

I chose to go with pfsense for routing, and built my own machine for that purpose, i value the ability to have total control over the gateway

with the speed of networks today, even if you're only on 1gbit, i see no need to physically segment out a "mancave" network. How much bandwidth could you expect to suck up on that? Keep in mind a 4k HDR stream is roughly 25Mbit as a reference

FYI CAT6a can run 10G at full 328 feet/100M. Cat 6 is much shorter, sometimes under 50 depending on environment. If you're running cable in the walls, go 6a.