Homeplug AV2 with longer distances over 400'

[tyab]

Hello all - Got a question about Homeplug AV2 and longer distances - in the 400'-500' range.

What I am looking for is low bandwidth communication from a ground solar system to my house where the overall distance is over 400'. I am not concerned about any significant bandwidth but do care about a reliable connection.

Here is the problem I am trying to solve.

Remote ground solar system is over 400' from the main service panel. The ground solar system has 80 Enphase microinverters. Up at the house I have an Enphase Envoy-S unit - this unit uses a primitive form of power line communication to communicate to the microinverters - getting power generated, updating firmware, and other communications. It has both wired and wireless ethernet to then communicate all that data via my router to Enphase's WWW servers. I don't know exactly what it uses for its powerline technology but given the length of time these units have been on the market it must be significantly older technology. And over that distance, the communication from the Envoy-S unit to the microinverters is poor to nonexistent.

My idea is to flip the problem around - move the Envoy-S unit as close as possible to the microinverters by installing it right on the ground mount in a NEMA 4X box and wire it into the solar subpanel. Then rely on Homeplug AV2 units to provide the ethernet down to that remote site connecting to the Envoy-S - my thinking is current powerline technologies must be far superior to whatever Enphase is using.

Thus wondering if anyone has any experience using Homeplug over longer distances.

The 400' run from my main panel to the solar subpanel is via parallel 4/0 AL cable and total voltage drop is in the 1.4% range.

Here is a line diagram describing.

main panel -- 15amp breaker -- AV2 on dedicated circuit -- router
|
----------- -- 100amp breaker -- 400' parallel 4/0 AL -- solar subpanel -- 15 amp breaker -- AV2 -- Envoy-S

Thanks in advance.

 

[degrub]

Hello all - Got a question about Homeplug AV2 and longer distances - in the 400'-500' range.

What I am looking for is low bandwidth communication from a ground solar system to my house where the overall distance is over 400'. I am not concerned about any significant bandwidth but do care about a reliable connection.

Here is the problem I am trying to solve.

Remote ground solar system is over 400' from the main service panel. The ground solar system has 80 Enphase microinverters. Up at the house I have an Enphase Envoy-S unit - this unit uses a primitive form of power line communication to communicate to the microinverters - getting power generated, updating firmware, and other communications. It has both wired and wireless ethernet to then communicate all that data via my router to Enphase's WWW servers. I don't know exactly what it uses for its powerline technology but given the length of time these units have been on the market it must be significantly older technology. And over that distance, the communication from the Envoy-S unit to the microinverters is poor to nonexistent.

My idea is to flip the problem around - move the Envoy-S unit as close as possible to the microinverters by installing it right on the ground mount in a NEMA 4X box and wire it into the solar subpanel. Then rely on Homeplug AV2 units to provide the ethernet down to that remote site connecting to the Envoy-S - my thinking is current powerline technologies must be far superior to whatever Enphase is using.

Thus wondering if anyone has any experience using Homeplug over longer distances.

The 400' run from my main panel to the solar subpanel is via parallel 4/0 AL cable and total voltage drop is in the 1.4% range.

Here is a line diagram describing.

main panel -- 15amp breaker -- AV2 on dedicated circuit -- router
|
----------- -- 100amp breaker -- 400' parallel 4/0 AL -- solar subpanel -- 15 amp breaker -- AV2 -- Envoy-S

Thanks in advance.

Use fiber optic cable and ethernet or serial communication. technology is well developed and reliable. Use it all the time with SCADA systems.

 

[tyab]

In retrospect I am kicking myself for not thinking of this when I had the trench 0pen, it would have been easy to add an empty 1-1/4" conduit the entire length down there when I put in the 3" conduit. But the reality is that stuff is all buried and due to location (steep grades, rocks, and erosion control) it would be expensive and time consuming to dig a new trench to run low voltage communication line down there.

So I'm looking at two possible solutions. Easiest and lowest cost would be Homeplug AV2 but no idea how it works over 400'+. The second would be a repeated RF solution since I don't have line of sight thus would have to have a midpoint repeater powered by the pool electrical.

I'll pick up some Homeplug AV2 units and try them out and report back if they work or not.

 

[sfx2000]

Technically it's possible - max run length for Home Plugs is around 300 meters, at least according to spec...

Some info here...

http://www.solwise.co.uk/learningce...ise-homeplug-powerline-data-transfer-devices/

 

[tyab]

Thanks for the link! I ordered the TP-Link AV2000 kit on amazon but they are backordered for a few weeks. I'll let folks know how well they work when it gets here.

 

[thiggins]

Keep in mind that HomePlug adapters will go into low power "sleep" mode when there is no network traffic for a few minutes. They power up again when traffic is detected, but it is not instantaneous. Some applications may not like this and think the network is down.

 

[tyab]

Thanks Tim - The way Envoy-S works is that it is collecting data (via a proprietary powerline prototal) from the known microinverters, and then packages it up and bursts it every 5 mins to the Enphase servers. Thus under normal operations I would expect transmissions from Envoy-S through the AV2's every 5 minutes so this might be an issue. Microinverters are fully powered only by the PV DC output - do they do not place any phantom loads on the grid. Thus once the PV panel loses light the microinverters shut down until the PV panel gets light. I don't know if the Envoy-S still burst its data during those dark hours. Now you have me interested, time to do some packet logging.

 

[tyab]

I received my TP Link AV2000 kit yesterday and got it working inside of the home. Super simple, plug them in and they were communicating. For security I had them pair to each other and now they are not using the default keys. So easy - hit pair on one, hit pair on the other and your done.. I was able to take my laptop and one of the units and every plug I tried in the house worked fine. I even took the unit to my pump house about 80' away and plugged it into a GFI plug up there and it worked great. The other unit is in my office plugged into a dedicated 15 amp circuit that has nothing else on it and it and it has a direct run to the main service panel. No GFI or any surge protection. I know this is true since I watched the electrician install 4 dedicated 15 amp circuits into my office we we build the house and this is one I was not currently using.

Now the real test. I took it the other way 400' down to my solar system - endless mud from all of the recent rain - and did a temporary hack hookup just to see if it worked - I just pigtailed into one of the 10 amp AC solar breakers.


It did not communicate hooked to L2, so I repatched to L1 and there it still never gave a green light but I got a slowly blinking red light. Windows was seeing the internet and I was able to browse. I tried to get lanbench up and running but I started it and it was showing transfer and then nothing - like it was getting and losing communication. I went back up to the house with the unit and just made sure it was still working correctly in a few plugs I tried in the garage - works perfectly. Went back down the solar but communication was poor to nothing. By then I was starting to lose light and laptop was about to shut down due to low battery so I'll pick this up tomorrow. But so far it is not looking so good.

 

[thiggins]

Keep in mind HomePlug is very sensitive to high frequency noise. The DC/AC power converters could be killing the signal.

Some adapters are better than others at adapting to noise. Check the Powerline Finder and try a different adapter set that uses another chipset. Might try a G.hn pair, too.
https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/tools/finders/powerline/view

Keep in mind, you are pushing the technology, so no guarantees.

 

[degrub]

Keep in mind HomePlug is very sensitive to high frequency noise. The DC/AC power converters could be killing the signal.

Some adapters are better than others at adapting to noise. Check the Powerline Finder and try a different adapter set that uses another chipset. Might try a G.hn pair, too.
https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/tools/finders/powerline/view

Keep in mind, you are pushing the technology, so no guarantees.

You might be able to use toroidal chokes on the AC side for the noise. Talk with the inverter company about how to filter noise on the line without consuming significant power. You might be able to install an AC|AC analog transformer and do the same thing. That would consume some power though.

 

[tyab]

Thiggins - you hit the root issue perfectly. I'm off today and spent all morning down there trying a bunch of things.

1. I ran 250' of #10 extension cord plugged into my pool GFCI plug (this pool is about 1/2 of the way down there). This is how I powered my tools during construction. Plugged the TP-Link Av2000 into that and I had communication - got about 5mbps on lanbench. Was able to fire up netflix and start a movie. This at least told me that homeplug could run the approximate 450' in this setup - with low bandwidth but enough for what I was looking for. Good info to have.

2. Hooked up another hack circuit breaker in the solar panel to connect the tplink av2000 unit to and this allowed me to turn off all of the solar generation by flipping all 10 of those breakers. And we have communication! Lanbench on L2 gives about 10mbs and on L1 it bounces between 10 and 14mbs - so clearly on weak signals being on the correct phase helps. This also told me that the parallel 4/0 cable that runs that 400'+ to that subpanel is itself not an issue (I was thinking that a minor length difference +/- 1" in the parallel cable might affect the higher frequencies used by homeplug but given that my bandwidth is double what the extension cord gave, I think I can rule that out.

3. Just turning on a single row of microinverters kills the homeplug communication. For me this is 8 microinverters on a 10 amp breaker. Flick it off and homeplug starts communicating again. Flick it on - and it kills the homeplug communication. And I have 10 of these circuits (80 microinverters).

Thus I believe you are correct Thiggins - either the noise generated by those microinverters or simply that fact that they are generating a power waveform that is tracking the grid signal is enough to overpower that already weak high frequency used by homeplug. 400' up at the house - the homeplug signal is strong enough so that generation noise is a non-issue.

Thus for my situation - homeplug is not a viable option. I am trying to run that signal near its allowed length and we have too much noise at the destination. I'm very bummed. I will keep the AV2000 units and find some other use for them - looks like they could easily connect a camera by the pump house that would cover the driveway entrance.

Thus I am now looking at other solutions - either wireless or wired. I really really really do not want to dig a trench down there (again) for a wired solution - that will be a lot of work and for the next couple of months my time is very limited. So I will initially be looking for some wireless solution. I spent some time walking around the entire system down there carefully looking up the hill to see if at any point we had LOS to the house and I did find one spot that may work without having to use a repeater at the pool - its right on the edge of visibility due to large rocks.

 

[sfx2000]

It's probably the inverters throwing enough noise on the line - as a fun trick, take an AM radio and run it up to the top of the AM band, and see if you're getting any broadband noise there.

Don't want to recommend running back to the store, but some of the old HomePlug spec gear might actually be more robust - Something like ActionTec's EG301x or MegaPlug 1.0 - many home automation platforms used these... TP Link has a similar model, which oddly enough, has the same model number as Actiontec - EG301x

So maybe WiFi is going to have to be that option - check Rokland, they sell their own stuff, but also resell alfa networks and a couple of others - they're kind of a specialist shop for outdoor wifi (think Long Haul Truckers, RV parks, Marina's, etc) - but they might have something useful there...

https://store.rokland.com

 

[sfx2000]

Might also check Renvu - they are another specialist vendor in this space...

http://www.renvu.com

They're selling the old TP-Link like I mentioned above...

 

[tyab]

I have the homeplug units setup for a security camera (not yet installed) on my driveway - its about 80' from the house to the pump house - maybe 110' or so total wire distance. The testing I have done shows the AV2 units work perfectly there - communication no issue and enough bandwidth for that camera. I'll do a post on that when I take the time to take some pictures.

I still have not fixed the original issue - internet over 400' at the solar system. But I picked up some Qbiquiti LiteBeam AC units and will be using those. Between the rain and other commitments, have not installed them yet but I did spend an evening have fun going all over the house having them pointed at each other and was amazed at the performance average about 250 Mbps no matter where I was. Took one up to the pump house for fun and still it was cranking over 150 Mbps transfers just holding it and pointing it in the general direction of the house. Very impressive units for what I felt was low cost. It will be mid/late March before I have the time to get everything installed, I'll update then.

 

[System Error Message]

With homeplug it only works on AC electricity at 110V,120V,230V,240V (very dependent on your region and where your adapter is designed for). i dont think tplink adapters show supported AC voltages in the documentation/specs. The frequency also matters and filtering noise is important. Your solar panels output DC and need to be converted into AC (sine not triangle/square wave), so make sure to use a good converter as well.

 

[tyab]

My bad - I completely forgot to update this thread with my final solution that I finished in July of 2017. 2 x Ubiquiti AirMax LiteBeam AC running point to point in bridge mode - one under the 2nd story roof pointing to the other at the solar site on a pole that is about 6' off of the grade. Not 100% line of site due to terrain but close enough to allow those units to have an excellent connection. I can't tell you have pleased I am with those units, they just work. These are the older first gen units, they are now shipping gen 2 units but I have no reason to change to them.

Home side:

Solar side:

m

Did some blog posts about this setup back in 2017: https://solargroundmount.blogspot.c...unications-with-home-setup.html?view=magazine
Added a weather station and PoE camera down there also. Again I can't stress how happy I have been with those LiteBeam units. Even heavy rain/snow and they simply do not lose communication.

I now have 4 of the AV2 homeplug units for other uses. Turned out to be perfect for connecting devices in the house that had marginal wireless signal. No issues with the homeplug units - they just work inside of the home and they have more than enough bandwidth. They are all TPLink AV2000 units, two are version 1 hardware, two are version 3 hardware but no issues mixing them

 

[System Error Message]

My bad - I completely forgot to update this thread with my final solution that I finished in July of 2017. 2 x Ubiquiti AirMax LiteBeam AC running point to point in bridge mode - one under the 2nd story roof pointing to the other at the solar site on a pole that is about 6' off of the grade. Not 100% line of site due to terrain but close enough to allow those units to have an excellent connection. I can't tell you have pleased I am with those units, they just work. These are the older first gen units, they are now shipping gen 2 units but I have no reason to change to them.

Home side:

Solar side:

m

Did some blog posts about this setup back in 2017: https://solargroundmount.blogspot.c...unications-with-home-setup.html?view=magazine
Added a weather station and PoE camera down there also. Again I can't stress how happy I have been with those LiteBeam units. Even heavy rain/snow and they simply do not lose communication.

I now have 4 of the AV2 homeplug units for other uses. Turned out to be perfect for connecting devices in the house that had marginal wireless signal. No issues with the homeplug units - they just work inside of the home and they have more than enough bandwidth. They are all TPLink AV2000 units, two are version 1 hardware, two are version 3 hardware but no issues mixing them

How many KWh do you generate in winter? Thats a nice solar array you got there. You can even construct an organised storage shed and even your own batteries too.
Most solar arrays only point in 1 angled direction rather than having 2 arrays next to each other pointing in different angles would allow you to max the area you have and double your capacity.

 

[tyab]

Output bounces around with weather (rain,snow, cloud cover, dust, smoke from fires, etc) and time of year (mainly shade from neighbors tall pine trees and general shade from the surrounding mountains) but at the low end I get over 1.5mWh/month during winter and at the high end around 3.8mWh/month in the summer. I have two full years of output now and the yearly total runs right around 33.4mWh/year.
Its a grid tied system with micros per panel with a yearly based NEM agreement so no interest in any kind of storage.

 

[System Error Message]

Output bounces around with weather (rain,snow, cloud cover, dust, smoke from fires, etc) and time of year (mainly shade from neighbors tall pine trees and general shade from the surrounding mountains) but at the low end I get over 1.5mWh/month during winter and at the high end around 3.8mWh/month in the summer. I have two full years of output now and the yearly total runs right around 33.4mWh/year.
Its a grid tied system with micros per panel with a yearly based NEM agreement so no interest in any kind of storage.

Thats not much, whats the land area you used? An average american home consumes around 800KWh per month (1+ KWh average), so that means you can fully power 2 average american homes on the worst.

 

[tyab]

It's been another 18 months and figured I would toss in an update. The link from the home to the solar via the Ubiquiti AirMax LiteBeam AC23's is still rock solid and even in the worst rain/snow storms it has never lost link except during complete power outages. I'm guessing the alignment of the units has shifted slightly- at least the Ubiquiti tools are indicating that - and I have had some buildup of trees in the partial line of sight so the signal quality between them is less than before but not enough yet to have any need to address it - its still around 150 mb - which is down from the 350's-450's when they are perfectly aligned and trees trimmed - but given the bandwidth requirements of the weather station, the IP camera, and Enphase monitor are so low - it makes no difference (yet). I still have those four TP-Link adapters, two of them sit on a shelf collecting dust and two are in use for a network printer in the exercise room so everyone has easy access to it. Inside of my home I have moved to a Ubiquiti WiFi mesh network so everything is on the mesh with the exception of that printer. For some reason that HP printer won't wake up when on WiFi but hardwired via the power-line wakes up perfectly so I just keep those units plugged in. Prior to moving to the mesh network I did a lot of playing around with the AV2 units and the sad truth is - when they jump a L1-L2 phase or worse jump a sub-panel - the bandwidth drops really fast. They are suppose to make a self repeating/repairing network but one of the locations in an upper bed room would have horrible performance to the point you could not even use a browser. Think of a diamond, the tip is the main unit, the sides are the repeaters, and the bottom is that location. Great signal on every leg to its adjoining leg but very poor bandwidth from the top to the bottom. I just gave up after trying just about every location I could think of - and the moment I put that mesh network in - every location in the home had great WiFi.

I think one of the issues power-line is fighting is simply all those filters and noise generators. Other than the power-line adapters, every important piece of electrical equipment in my home is either on an Isobar filter or the really expensive stuff is on Brick Wall's. Combine all that filtering with simply a ton of small switching adapters all generating noise (cell phone, chargers, etc) and having multiple sub-panels simply makes signal degradation too hard to be viable. My TP-Link units last firmware update was 2017 - nothing sense then - makes me feel those products are in maintenance mode and not actively being enhanced compared to technology like mesh WiFi. Again just my opinion. For now I'll just keep those two power-line units alive for that printer but would not be surprised if they get shelved in the not too distance future.