Information Overload - Help Needed

[jcwillia1]

I feel really dumb right now. I'm actually fairly well versed in tech compared to my peers but I did the recommended reading and I am more confused than when I started.

I'm looking at this link :

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/lanwan/router-charts/bar/76-total-simul

What benchmark should I be looking at?

My network devices :

Quad Core PC (wireless dual band USB stick) - this is where the bulk of the large files come from
WD Live Personal Cloud Drive (wired)
Sony HTIB (wired)
XBox 360 (one wired, one wireless - g adapter I think (white, one antenna, not two)
Wii (wireless, in practice never uses the network)
3 iPads (2 1st gen, 1 3rd gen)
2 iPod Touch 4th gen
4 laptops (g or n, not dual band to my knowledge except maybe my work laptop)
LG LCD TV (wired (DLNA))

I'm assuming I need a gigabit router (mostly for the NAS) and then I need something that can handle all those connections wirelessly. So I'm assuming bandwidth will be my #1 issue. We do plenty of video streaming on all those devices also. How "HD" that video is - no one really cares but me...

I'm also budget challenged on this purchase so although the ASUS Black Diamond looks best in class for my needs, I don't know that I will be able to get there from a cost perspective.

We are currently using AT&T's provided router which is absolute f'ing garbage but we are switching to Comcast shortly.

edit : now looking at this link : http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/lanwan/router-charts/price/76-total-simul

 

[Fraoch]

Quad Core PC (wireless dual band USB stick) - this is where the bulk of the large files come from
WD Live Personal Cloud Drive (wired)
Sony HTIB (wired)
XBox 360 (one wired, one wireless - g adapter I think (white, one antenna, not two)
Wii (wireless, in practice never uses the network)
3 iPads (2 1st gen, 1 3rd gen)
2 iPod Touch 4th gen
4 laptops (g or n, not dual band to my knowledge except maybe my work laptop)
LG LCD TV (wired (DLNA))

It depends how you stream your video. If it goes directly in real-time from your PC to one of the wired devices then yes, you will need very good wireless. If, however, you transfer the files to the WD TV Live first and play them from there, wireless performance doesn't have to be stellar.

Is there any way to wire the PC? Or at least use a PCI/PCIe wireless adapter? Wiring would be best but a PCI/PCIe adapter would be better than a USB stick due to its larger size and large external antennas - plus they usually have better drivers.

If it wasn't for the PC, your wireless needs sound modest. Since you're using a dual-band adapter in the PC and you indicate you transfer large files from there though, you may want a dual-band router which will unfortunately increase cost.

However dual-band "n" routers are starting to come down in price due to the increased interest and manufacturer focus on 802.11ac. I notice the ASUS RT-N66U has decreased in price by about $30 from when I bought mine a month ago. Prices may get even lower as retailers clear out perfectly good 802.11n routers.

As for the wired routing speed performance you linked to, it's an indication of the overall CPU performance of the router. It doesn't necessarily have an impact on wireless performance, it's just that the best-performing wireless routers usually have the best components including gigabit ports, fast CPUs and lots of RAM. You may not need a gigabit router, HD video streams play perfectly fine over 100 Mbps Ethernet - but not over 802.11g or marginal 802.11n.

 

[jcwillia1]

clarification : 99% of our video watching is from Prime Instant Video to one of the iDevices.

The other 1% is me watching movies from the WD MyBook Live (Not WD Live TV) to the TV - both wired devices.

Based on your comments I am considering stepping off the dual band bandwagon and possibly moving the PC to a wired location.


My question remains though - which sort should I use for the charts? Total Simultaneous Throughput?

 

[Fraoch]

clarification : 99% of our video watching is from Prime Instant Video to one of the iDevices.

I'm not familiar with that service - is it delivered from the Internet directly to your wireless device or is it buffered on the PC first? I'm guessing it's delivered from the Internet directly to your wireless device, in which case wireless networking performance will be important.

However Internet-delivered video is usually low bandwidth out of necessity - I'm noticing Netflix HD streams top out at around 7 Mbps which isn't terribly demanding even for wireless.

The other 1% is me watching movies from the WD MyBook Live (Not WD Live TV) to the TV - both wired devices.

Even raw Blu-Ray rips are easily handled by 100 Mbps wired connections, so any router would be good for this purpose.

Based on your comments I am considering stepping off the dual band bandwagon and possibly moving the PC to a wired location.

Wired connections are always faster and more stable than wireless, even 802.11ac wireless (OK, you'd need gigabit Ethernet to beat 802.11ac). But again it depends if you're watching your video through your PC to a wireless device or directly from the Internet.

Directly from the Internet to a wireless device could possibly be better - if it's from the PC to a wireless device you have two wireless hops as your network now stands, direct from the Internet is only one.

My question remains though - which sort should I use for the charts? Total Simultaneous Throughput?

That's an indication of wired performance and is more telling of how fast the CPU in the router is. Even the slower performers on that chart will be able to handle HD video playback from one network client to another or from the Internet. But since your video playback is over wireless, you should be looking at wireless performance. And since the iPads use dual-band networking, take a look at 5 GHz performance. I'd use simultaneous up-down throughput as a good measure of overall performance since it stresses the wireless system to its maximum and will show any weaknesses:

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/lanwan/router-charts/bar/116-5-ghz-updn-c

Ignore the 802.11ac routers at this point since you don't have any 802.11ac clients and can't take advantage of 802.11ac yet.

If your wireless clients are far away from your router, 5 GHz performance won't be quite as good and 2.4 GHz performance will matter:

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/lanwan/router-charts/bar/115-2_4-ghz-updn-c

 

[jcwillia1]

This is just leading me back to the Black Diamond router

sigh...

Prime Instant Video is Amazon - not sure why I didn't say that the first time.

for size of house I currently have a split level where the wireless router is literally all the way on one side of the house and where we use most of our wireless use is actually on the complete opposite side of the house (like 50-60 feet away through walls and floors) - unfortunately there's no real fixing this based on how the rooms are divided and set up. Again it sounds like dual band will be of limited use to me.

We are considering building a 2 story house in the near future where I will have full control of where to place the router (because I can say where the wires go) so this may be a short term problem.

anyways, thanks for the info - seems like for my uses I will be happiest with the Black Diamond. even though it's about 2x as much as I want to spend.

 

[thiggins]

I feel (felt) your pain. That's why I created the Router Ranker. It cranks through the key benchmarks and automatically ranks routers three ways: Wired Routing Throughput, Wireless Throughput and Wireless Range. These separate rankings are also combined for a Total Router rank.

Routers are separated by class. From your description, you should be looking at N600 class routers. http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/rankers/router/ranking/N600?rank=6

In general, internet streaming requires about 4 Mbps per stream. Local network streaming rates depend on the content's enconding. Uncompressed 1080p Blu-ray rips can peak at 40 Mbps.

 

[jcwillia1]

I feel (felt) your pain. That's why I created the Router Ranker. It cranks through the key benchmarks and automatically ranks routers three ways: Wired Routing Throughput, Wireless Throughput and Wireless Range. These separate rankings are also combined for a Total Router rank.

Routers are separated by class. From your description, you should be looking at N600 class routers. http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/rankers/router/ranking/N600?rank=6

In general, internet streaming requires about 4 Mbps per stream. Local network streaming rates depend on the content's enconding. Uncompressed 1080p Blu-ray rips can peak at 40 Mbps.

that's very helpful - so based on that link but change to wireless throughput it looks like maybe this is my router?

TP-LINK TL-WDR3500 N600 Wireless Dual Band Router

which is way cheaper...?

 

[thiggins]

You should dig a bit deeper and look at the review. You want something that has high wireless throughput but also maintains that throughput over range. That would be the Black Diamond.

You can, of course, buy the TP-LINK first and see if it works for you and return it if it doesn't.

If/when you build your new home, be sure it has at least one Ethernet drop in each room. Wireless will never equal Ethernet in throughput and reliability.

 

[Fraoch]

Prime Instant Video is Amazon - not sure why I didn't say that the first time.

Yeah, I googled it and saw that. I still don't know if it's played back from your PC (i.e. buffered there) or delivered directly from the Internet, which would be my guess. You'll need decent wireless performance if it's delivered directly from the Internet to a wireless device, but the advantage is that it isn't a very high bandwidth stream.

for size of house I currently have a split level where the wireless router is literally all the way on one side of the house and where we use most of our wireless use is actually on the complete opposite side of the house (like 50-60 feet away through walls and floors) - unfortunately there's no real fixing this based on how the rooms are divided and set up. Again it sounds like dual band will be of limited use to me.

Yes 5 GHz won't help you much in that situation. 2.4 GHz would be as fast under those circumstances.

We are considering building a 2 story house in the near future where I will have full control of where to place the router (because I can say where the wires go) so this may be a short term problem.

Wire everything you can and put a wireless AP in the centre of the house, elevated off the floor. You can use most routers as APs, so you can reuse the one you'll end up purchasing shortly. Running wires is the hardest and most expensive part of this so only wire once - use at least Cat5e and you'll be good for gigabit.

anyways, thanks for the info - seems like for my uses I will be happiest with the Black Diamond. even though it's about 2x as much as I want to spend.

There is a reason it costs as much as it does, it really is that good - especially with 2.4 GHz performance over long range with many obstacles like you have. Take heart though, its price has been coming down recently. I got mine only a month ago at $174.99 CDN (ouch) but today I could get it for $149.99...I'm sure it will be even lower in the U.S.

 

[jcwillia1]

yah - I'm thinking Black Diamond is the answer. I think I would just end up buying it later if I bought something else now.

Amazon Video is all app delivered - the only way the PC gets involved is if that's the dveice you're watching it on.

especially with the evolution of Smart TV's I think you have all convinced me to wire every room of our new house with ethernet. Obviously doesn't help with the iDevices but with TV/set top box, sounds like that will forever be the best option, regardless of how far wireless evolves.

 

[Fraoch]

yah - I'm thinking Black Diamond is the answer. I think I would just end up buying it later if I bought something else now.

Look for sales and clearances on it - I'm seeing that the regular price has dropped a bit just recently and sale prices are as low as I've ever seen them right now.

Amazon Video is all app delivered - the only way the PC gets involved is if that's the dveice you're watching it on.

Wireless performance, especially long-range 2.4 GHz performance, will be more important than wired performance then.

especially with the evolution of Smart TV's I think you have all convinced me to wire every room of our new house with ethernet. Obviously doesn't help with the iDevices but with TV/set top box, sounds like that will forever be the best option, regardless of how far wireless evolves.

Absolutely - it's faster, more reliable/stable and uses fewer computer resources. There's hardly anything that can ever go wrong with it provided your cables and terminations are good.

When you do this, you can keep your Black Diamond and use it as an AP and get a router you'll use for wired routing, or use your Black Diamond for wired routing and get an AP. You can even use the wireless on both simultaneously if you want to extend coverage. Take a look at these articles:

How to Improve Network Performance Part 1

How to Improve Network Performance Part 2

How to Improve Network Performance Part 3

You will need to use certain concepts in these articles because you'll probably have more wired devices than a router can provide, so you'll need a switch. Also you have the opportunity to put the wireless AP in the best spot possible, right in the centre of your house, which will probably not be where your Internet comes in and where your modem will be, so you'll need to split up the router and wireless access functions.

 

[jcwillia1]

Thanks - will bookmark this for if and when the house gets built. For right now, my chief concern is getting a wireless router for my Comcast installation in a couple weeks.

Plus my head is just SWIMMING with new house construction details so there's no room for anything else in there right now

 

[Fraoch]

BTW I think we're getting ASUS's router names confused - the RT-N66U is what I'm discussing and what I think you're mentioning, but it's called "the Dark Knight".

The "Black Diamond" is the RT-N56U. I have read it's also very good and it is better at wired performance, meaning it has a very good CPU and good components, but it's not as good at wireless as the RT-N66U. For one thing it doesn't have external antennas, which always makes me wonder a bit. It would still probably serve you well though. I notice it doesn't have the capability to have guest SSIDs which could be an issue for you. Also, since it's Ralink-based, there aren't many alternative firmwares which might provide this functionality. The Broadcom-based N66U can handle guest SSIDs right out of the box plus there are many alternative firmwares available for it if you're interested in that.

 

[jcwillia1]

I'm looking at 56 not the 66.

66 is well outside what I would consider spending on a router.

just personal preference.

 

[Fraoch]

Plus my head is just SWIMMING with new house construction details so there's no room for anything else in there right now

Electricians can handle the wiring for you - they'll run a wire to every room with a wall plate, then terminate all the wire runs in the basement or a wiring closet. Use a switch there, you can get 16 or even 24 port switches. Ideally your Internet connection would be close by, so you'd go modem -> wired router -> switch, and your AP would be in a central room and connected using one of the wall plate jacks.

Note any wireless router can operate like a wired router, you can just turn off the wireless. If you keep it on you can provide coverage to nearby wireless devices but it may not be necessary.

I'm looking at 56 not the 66.

66 is well outside what I would consider spending on a router.

Ah, OK. The N56 is quite good.

 

[jcwillia1]

thanks for the advice - I was leaning toward just any crappy $20 item that popped up on slickdeals but I think you guys steered me away from that.

as for the wired ports, it's a fixed option with the builder - I'll just tell them to wire every room and then I can take care of the tech side of things as the budget allows.

(also trying to squirrel some money away to build a custom home theater but that is a WHOLE 'NOTHER STORY )

 

[Fraoch]

thanks for the advice - I was leaning toward just any crappy $20 item that popped up on slickdeals but I think you guys steered me away from that.

You do get what you pay for, and home networking is getting more and more demanding. Cheap or old devices can't keep up.

(also trying to squirrel some money away to build a custom home theater but that is a WHOLE 'NOTHER STORY )

Hoo boy, having been into this a few years ago I can tell you that's another hobby which will consume every dollar you have and then some.

 

[jcwillia1]

Hoo boy, having been into this a few years ago I can tell you that's another hobby which will consume every dollar you have and then some.

Logging into avsforum was easily the worst mistake I ever made when it came to that but there's no going back once you see some of those pictures...

 

[thiggins]

Thanks - will bookmark this for if and when the house gets built. For right now, my chief concern is getting a wireless router for my Comcast installation in a couple weeks.

Plus my head is just SWIMMING with new house construction details so there's no room for anything else in there right now

Give these a read when you get a chance.
How To: Diary of a New Home Network- Part 1

How To: Diary of a New Home Network- Part 2

How To: Diary of a New Home Network - Part 3

 

[jcwillia1]

I named my router "TheBlackDiamond" (facepalm) I'm such a geek...