LAN design for maximum reliability in AV Systems

[bobsilver]

I am working with a company that does AV systems integration in the residential space. I was asked to look into a standard network design for them. The systems they build contain a mix of video components (primarily TiVo units) and a mix of audio components (primarily Sonos components which are all setup wired not wireless). Up until now the systems have been installed with 24 port cascaded switches with each device being homerun to the main switch (the switch connects to the router for ip address management and wan connections). Generally the systems work fine but after some time the clients see that a device seems to drop off the network. This occurs primarily with the TiVo's but does occur with the Sonos systems too.

My thinking is to create isolated lans and swirches for the TiVo's and the Sonos's using managed switches. My thinking is the system would be set up like this. Router -> Master Managed switch -> Port 1 to Video (Tivo Switch) and Port 2 to Sonos Switch. Remaining on ports Master switch to be used for Access Points, Home control and other non data intensive functions.

My question are these.

1. By isolating the Tivo and Sonos systems on their own switches am I minimizing potential network collision and or congestion problems?
2. My plan was to configure the master switch with port assigned Vlans for the Tivo and Sonos networks. Is this even needed?
3. Is there an enterprise grade hardware solution that should be utilized. The integrator uses managed Netgear and Araknis switches currently. Suggestions appreciated.
4. In any configuration the AV equipment must be able to be connected to the internet and wireless devices such as phones and tablets must be able to communicate with the Tivo's and Sonos for control. Will Vlans prevent this for occurring?

Appreciate any insight to this.

Bob Silver

 

[System Error Message]

If you are trying to transmit AV over ethernet than your best chance would be a managed switch. It will allow you to perform QoS and logical segmentations.

If you have multiple switches, stacking and LAGG can help but make sure you have RSTP as well.

You may need a non consumer router that is configurable like mikrotik, ubiquiti or a linux server. The choice depends on features and throughput you need. This is for internet access and can be used to run hotspot or RADIUS too.

congestion or collisions happen if there isnt enough bandwidth or too much data going to one client at a time for example. QoS can help to some extent and network segmentation but ideally all devices communicating with each other should be on the same switches. If you have a cloud of AV servers than they should be on the same switch but if you have multiple AV systems and multiple non related transfers going on than place them on different switches but with LAGG or stacked links between. You can either use a central approach using central switch and everything connected to it or distributed approach of seperate switches and balancing the clients and AV systems between them. All solutions would need a managed switch. Think of the AV source as a server and think of the components like display, speakers, etc as the client.

I think the central switch method is the best if you can, it is just the cost and cabling mess involved. A good managed switch should be able to perform the complex segmentations and QoS that you will need to prevent collisions and congestion. A single central switch would already eliminate congestion but a well thought out switch network can also be without congestion if stacked or if LAGG used is equal to the ports. For example 2 24 port switches with 2 10Gb/s ports connected to each other by combining both 10Gb/s ports eliminates congestion.

 

[sfx2000]

Depends on the business model - is this install and move on, or an ongoing business/support relationship with the customer...

TiVo/Sonos are good choices, and building out a home LAN to support that is pretty easy to to - a single GIGe switch with enough ports to support the end-points is all that is needed - GIGe is more than enough for AV purposes.

The challenge comes in when looking at additional traffic once the LAN is in place... everything from basic internet to security cameras (heavy video usage) to the connected Toaster and Coffee Pot...

 

[bobsilver]

Thanks for the replies. This is for an AV integrator whose business is installing large av systems. So this network design is something he wishes to standardize on for all installations as most of his contracts are similar in scope and functionality . He also provides ongoing support with this as well. As any problems the integrator needs to handle. And currently one of the more common problems is that a Tivo drops off the network. He then has to make a service call to unplug and restart the Tivo. Other issues are at times stuttering from the Tivos which are annoyances and dissatisfaction ultimately leading to service calls.

So the goal is to provide a network design that can prevent as many of these issues as possible. Cost is not an issue.

The current Managed Switch he is using is an Araknis 300 Series. Here is a link to the Araknis 300 manual if interested https://www.dropbox.com/s/j9phxuuio3dineh/AN-300-SW_Manual.pdf?dl=0 Usually he cascades 2 24 port switches and as mentioned home runs cables from each device to the switches. Currently he has not set up QOS or Vlan functions.

A common system might be 5-7 Tivo zones and 5-15 Sonos zones. Again my thinking is to set up 2 Vlans 1 for the Tivo and 1 for the Sonos. Other network devices will be ipads, iphones, POE ip cameras and such. The wifi is handles by Access Points placed through the house connected to one of the switches. The ip cameras will be on a separate POE switch usually or embedded in one of the Araknis 300 models with POE.

Its not a terribly complicated setup. Just has a low tolerance for performance issues as customer expectations are that it works perfectly all of the time.

Thoughts to a solid design?

 

[L&LD]

If cost is not an issue, why isn't a professional involved already?

 

[sfx2000]

A common system might be 5-7 Tivo zones and 5-15 Sonos zones. Again my thinking is to set up 2 Vlans 1 for the Tivo and 1 for the Sonos. Other network devices will be ipads, iphones, POE ip cameras and such. The wifi is handles by Access Points placed through the house connected to one of the switches. The ip cameras will be on a separate POE switch usually or embedded in one of the Araknis 300 models with POE.

Even with the VLAN's, it's still on the same physical medium perhaps, so collisions will still occur - QoS tagging can help, and the VLAN's might be able to prioritize and segment out traffic...

 

[coxhaus]

I think this is something which will need to be tested. Sonos has STP built-in to the software. It is an old version. Apple devices don't like to be apart. So networking can be an issue. I don't know anything about Tivo. So I am not sure anybody will have a complete answer. There are lots of issues here.

Has he tried different switches? I think the Tivo drop off is a switch related problem to Tivo. Probably a new firmware for the switch or a different switch will fix this one issue but then you have Sonos to deal with.

Looking at Sonos support I found this for Cisco SG300 switches.


How do I configure my Cisco network switch to work with Sonos?

• 
  These are settings that were configured for a Cisco SG300-52 managed switch that played the role of the Root Bridge for the Sonos network.
  Even while the following parameters are derived from the SG300-52 settings, they may be adapted to switch hardware of other vendors, too.
  
  Global Settings
  Spanning Tree State: Enable
  STP Operation State: Classic STP
  BPDU Handling: Flooding
  Path Cost Default Values: Short
  
  Bridge Settings
  Priority: 4096
  Hello Time: 2
  Max Age: 20
  Forward Delay: 15
  
  STP Interface Settings
  For each network port with a player being connected, the following settings apply:
  
  STP: Enable
  Edge Port: Auto
  Root Guard: Disable
  BPDU Guard: Disable
  BPDU Handling: Use Global Settings
  Path Cost: User Defined 10
  Priority: 128
  
  All other network devices that don't participate in the Sonos player spanning tree may be set up like this:
  
  STP: Enable
  Edge Port: Auto
  Root Guard: Disable
  BPDU Guard: Disable
  BPDU Handling: Use Global Settings
  Path Cost: Use Default
  Priority: 128
  
  Typically "STP: Enable" or "STP: Disable" *do* work for all non Sonos ports.
  
  Cisco does not suggest disabling the STP option on single switch ports because "non-network experienced people" may use those ports and then have difficulty diagnosing loop and broadcast storm issues quickly.
  
  Also IGMP snooping should be enabled with Multicast filtering enabled, to lower the overall network load.
  
  Multicast Settings
  Bridge Multicast Filtering Status: Enable VLAN ID: your ID - e.g. 1 Forwarding method for IPv4/v6: MAC Group Address IGMP
  Snooping Status: Enable
  
  Make sure that your router provides support for Multicast traffic pass through and has implemented an IGMP querier - e.g. IGMP v2 compatible. You don't have to elect an available IGMP querier by yourself. This will be done by the Multicast handling network devices (router, switches) automatically.
  
  Concerning the Cisco SG300-52 switch hardware it's absolutely essential that you disable (and apply) the "Spanning Tree State" after you've done changes to the "STP Interface Settings" and enable (and apply) "Spanning Tree State" again, or the spanning tree won't be rebuilt and run correctly.

I also found this on Sonos site about Cisco RV routers.

Cisco RV Series
Wiring more than one Sonos component to the router causes a broadcast storm. Log into the router's administration panel and navigate to L2 Switch > RSTP and check 'Protocol Enable' on all ports.

I don't see any router listed? Does Sonos do internet radio? Also is there a LAN and guess wireless scenario going on to where you want music on both LAN and guess networks?

 

[CaptainSTX]

Are the TIVOs connected using their built in MOCA or Ethernet?

I have four TIVOs connected using Ethernet and in two years have not had any of them drop off my network or require restarts.

If the TIVOs are using MOCA switch them to the Ethernet connections. Nothing trumps Ethernet for reliability in most every application.

 

[System Error Message]

for the router cisco rv series would do very poorly. TiVOs bug out often because the firmware isnt as robust or it could be the platform. Theres not much one can do other than restart. Its the same with the issue for many consumer routers that just hang often and require a restart. Perhaps PSU could also be an issue.

However if a TiVO is sensitive to internet availability for it to function and not require reboot than a good router can help there. Another thing you should do is do a test run and check for any errors on the switch if a TiVO bugs out.

 

[bobsilver]

Thanks again for the replys. I am going to go ahead and configure this initially with Vlans on the Araknis 300 managed switch. Setting separate Vlans for the Tivos and Sonos. The Tivos are connected via Ethernet although Tivo prefers Moca but thats not an option. Ill initially do this on one central switch. If any issues appear Ill try and set up a dedicated manages switch for the Tivos and the Sonos components. Appreciate the settings suggestions too.

Ill report back the results once its installed and running a while.

Bob Silver

 

[coxhaus]

You might try hard coding an IP address to the Tivo so it doesn't use DHCP to see if it helps with the drop off network problem.

Another thing which comes to mind is does Tivo support green Ethernet ports? You might try turning off power save on the Ethernet port on the switch.