Looking for Advice on Mesh with Ethernet Backhall on large property

[tilhasbb]

Hello Everyone,

My brother is getting his dream home built and it is huge. 4300sq ft with 3 floors and a large backyard.
What's nice is he is in rural area so there will not be any other wifi in range.

I'm going to get them to run a CAT 6 Ethernet to every room in the house. I'm thinking of having wifi hubs on each floor and one in the backyard all connected with an ethernet backhaul.

I'm looking for a good mesh devices that supports ethernet backhaul. I want to have it seemless for all the users, so the same SSID name.

There isn't many reviews from the Asus's aimesh to the TP-link Deco's setup but they both have an issue of using the same channel. Since I don't have any other wifi networks around I'd like to use the largest channel bandwidth 80mhz/160mhz but use different channels for each router. Do any of the routers support that?

What would you recommend? I'm looking for advice on what to get when the house is completed in September 2020.

Thank you

 

[L&LD]

While I would stick with Asus/RMerlin myself, this looks like the budget can be bigger.

@Trip, we need your great recommendations here.

 

[coxhaus]

I would look at using 3 Cisco WAP581 wireless APs. I use 2 in a 3288 sq ft home. They work well. And course you need a router and switches. I would Cisco small business gear. I would try to home run all drops to one location like a wiring closet or sharing a closet.

If it is rural how fast of internet pipe can he get?

 

[Trip]

@tilhasbb - I realize you probably wouldn't be here if the following was possible, but I'll ask mention it anyways. Considering your bro is already footing a bill of this scale, I'd look into hiring this out to a high-end residential AV/networking outfit, if there are such providers in his area. Especially if it can be phased into the build before finish work and painting is done. The benefits are obvious; he (or you) would basically bring your requirements to them, and they'd handle the entire thing, from gear to install to setup to training, perhaps even management.

If that isn't possible, I would still have the cabling and interconnects installed and tested by data guys (probably not electricians, unless they're really good). Then you can select, install and configure the network gear. I'd run Cat6 if most runs are short, otherwise 6A if the guys don't mind working with it and the price isn't too much more (U/UTP unless shielding/grounding is really needed), at least 2 wall ports per room, plus a service loop (or 2) above each ceiling, with enough slack to drop down the side of any wall for an additional port later, or keep on the ceiling for an AP or smart fixture. I'd home-run every drop to a 24 or 48-port managed PoE switch (or a stack of them) in a network rack, with battery backup, a solid wired router and the ISP modem (have them put the demarc there by the rack if you can).

Gear:

Overall - I'd put in small-business grade gear, at minimum, so his network runs more like an appliance than a toy (set and forget, upgrade pieces as desired). If you're after a single control plane, I'd look at Ubiquiti UniFi. USG Pro or Dream Machine, plus USW switch(es) and however many AC Wave 2 APs of whatever form-factor (NanoHD, FlexHD, etc.). Cisco small biz stuff is also rock-solid (RV/SG/WAP), but less progressive functionality and the control plane is not completely integrated like UniFi.

Router - If internet end up at or under 500Mb aggregate, you want a gateway that offers SQM for QoS. That would be Ubiquiti UniFi or EdgeRouter, pfSense or most Linux-based community firewalls (OpenWRT, Untangle, etc). If you want to run a lot of services on the gateway (VPN, etc.) I'd look at low-power x86 hardware with one of those firewall OS's on it.

Switching - A single, "collapsed core" if you can, keeping the LAN "flat" (avoid daisy-chaining). L2/2+ should be enough. UniFi switch if you use their APs, otherwise Cisco SG or HPE OfficeConnect. Refurb enterprise would also work (HPE/Aruba is the bomb), but probably not necessary.

Wifi - Definitely go centralized for seamless roaming and management. Aside from UniFi and Cisco WAP, you could look at an embedded product like Aruba Instant On, which doesn't require a discrete controller and gives you master/slave redundancy. Any of the above should work wonders, though. Especially since he's in the middle of the woods with little to no neighboring interference (Ruckus not needed).

Hope some of that helps.

 

[tilhasbb]

I would look at using 3 Cisco WAP581 wireless APs. I use 2 in a 3288 sq ft home. They work well. And course you need a router and switches. I would Cisco small business gear. I would try to home run all drops to one location like a wiring closet or sharing a closet.

If it is rural how fast of internet pipe can he get?

He is on the edge of rural but close enough to get 1GB/1GB Fiber to home! That was his REQUIREMENT before buying the land and building the house. He also checked with the neighbour and the speedtest maxed his phone at 960mbps.

The builder is putting a cabinet in the laudry room (top floor in the center of the house) with a conduit to the outside. That is where all the network cable/RG-6/phone cable will terminate. I requested for it to be in the basement but they refused because of possible humidity issues in summer. The cabinate will also have a dedicated 120v 20amp outlet.

Going to get a 24port gigabit switch to connect all the jacks then one to the modem/router provided by the ISP.

Why the Cisco, at that price point it unlocks everything
Linksys Velop AX MX10, Netgear XRM570 Nighthawk Pro, NETGEAR Orbi Pro , Google Nest Wifi, Synology Mesh Router MR2200ac, TP-Link Deco M9

 

[tilhasbb]

@tilhasbb - I realize you probably wouldn't be here if the following was possible, but I'll ask mention it anyways. Considering your bro is already footing a bill of this scale, I'd look into hiring this out to a high-end residential AV/networking outfit, if there are such providers in his area. Especially if it can be phased into the build before finish work and painting is done. The benefits are obvious; he (or you) would basically bring your requirements to them, and they'd handle the entire thing, from gear to install to setup to training, perhaps even management.

If that isn't possible, I would still have the cabling and interconnects installed and tested by data guys (probably not electricians, unless they're really good). Then you can select, install and configure the network gear. I'd run Cat6 if most runs are short, otherwise 6A if the guys don't mind working with it and the price isn't too much more (U/UTP unless shielding/grounding is really needed), at least 2 wall ports per room, plus a service loop (or 2) above each ceiling, with enough slack to drop down the side of any wall for an additional port later, or keep on the ceiling for an AP or smart fixture. I'd home-run every drop to a 24 or 48-port managed PoE switch (or a stack of them) in a network rack, with battery backup, a solid wired router and the ISP modem (have them put the demarc there by the rack if you can).

Gear:

Overall - I'd put in small-business grade gear, at minimum, so his network runs more like an appliance than a toy (set and forget, upgrade pieces as desired). If you're after a single control plane, I'd look at Ubiquiti UniFi. USG Pro or Dream Machine, plus USW switch(es) and however many AC Wave 2 APs of whatever form-factor (NanoHD, FlexHD, etc.). Cisco small biz stuff is also rock-solid (RV/SG/WAP), but less progressive functionality and the control plane is not completely integrated like UniFi.

Router - If internet end up at or under 500Mb aggregate, you want a gateway that offers SQM for QoS. That would be Ubiquiti UniFi or EdgeRouter, pfSense or most Linux-based community firewalls (OpenWRT, Untangle, etc). If you want to run a lot of services on the gateway (VPN, etc.) I'd look at low-power x86 hardware with one of those firewall OS's on it.

Switching - A single, "collapsed core" if you can, keeping the LAN "flat" (avoid daisy-chaining). L2/2+ should be enough. UniFi switch if you use their APs, otherwise Cisco SG, HPE OfficeConnect or Zyxel. Certain cheaper/refurb enterprise will also work, but probably not necessary.

Wifi - Definitely go centralized for seamless roaming and ease-of-management. Aside from UniFi and Cisco WAP, you could look at an embedded-controller product like Aruba Instant On, which doesn't require a discrete controller and gives you master/slave auto-redundancy.

Hope some of that helps.

Thank you Trip.
My brother is no techie and is not running anything mission critical so he doesn't need 99.999% up time. He is just looking to be able to start a 4k video on his iPad Pro from the bedroom on the 2nd floor to the backyard without it buffering or loosing signal.

- I'll take a note to upgrade all the CAT 6 to CAT 6A. The builder origionally had 5E that I pushed to 6. I didn't know there was a 6A already out.
- As for testing, it is all covered by the inspector pre-drywall.
- He will never use QoS or need it. He is going to have a couple of 4K TVs, Laptops, iPads, iPhones, Nest Thermostat, Nest Cameras and probably a Nest doorbell camera. Also with the 1Gbps speed I don't think he would need to worry about something clogging the network.

- I'm thinking less expensive equipment that I will change out in 1-2 years when Wifi-6 comes out but something that is decent for today. Most of his devices are dual laptops max connection speed at 866 and his Old Macbooks don't support AC.
I dont want to go overkill on the router speed if his current hardware won't come close to it yet.

 

[Trip]

Gotcha. All he needs for a gateway then is something that can NAT 2Gb/s, no SQM/QoS needed (lucky him!).

All things considered, I'd still put in a wired router and centrally-controlled, hardwired APs. An all-in-one will likely be too weak in wifi coverage at the house edges, and no consumer mesh product (besides maybe tri-band Eero Pro) will give anywhere near the set-and-forget performance and airtime flexibility that can simply and not-very-expensively be achieved by doing even just cheap hardwired APs and just a small PoE switch. Here's a very basic sample stack:

Cisco RV320 <$140 USD (closeout)
Cisco SG250-08HP $115 USD
(3) TP-Link EAP225v3's ($60 ea.), $180 USD total, then run the controller on an always-on PC or buy an $85 OC200 controller

For at or well-under $500 (in what probably is a multi-hundred thousand dollar house, mind you) you'd have a vastly more upgrade-able, serviceable and reliable network.

 

[tilhasbb]

Awesome!
I like this TP-Link EAP225v2 but is there one that is not POE?
I don't like the idea of running POE on CAT6A on 200-250ft runs. I'd rather have the CAT6A give only data and get power from a dedicated source.

I guess you don't like any of the consumer grade mesh's like Google Mesh.

 

[Jeffb]

I own a nearly 4000 sqft home with three floors. In 2016 installed an Orbi RBK50 system. One satellite, one router. Router in basement, satellite on Main; covers upstairs with no loss of signal.

Last year, 1st son ,lives a mile east of us,, installed same in a similar size home. 2nd son moved into a similar sq ft home, 3 floor home, a mile west of us several months ago

We all have Comcast 300mbs and get about 360 wireless at all points of house. I have had no security issues.

In the past ran Asus and Merlin with extenders.

Will probably update to WIfi 6 mesh system, when needed, but no need now.

Orbi has been solid for all of us.

 

[Trip]

@tilhasbb - I'm not outright opposed to consumer mesh stuff, not at all. I don't think Google Wifi is all that great, nor are most dual-band systems, but tri-band Orbi RBK50 or Eero Pro, for example, are fine products for when hardwiring, in any form, is a no-go. RBK50 benefits from 4x4-stream backhaul links. Eero Pro can utilize up to all three radios for backhaul or endpoint on an as-needed basis, plus has SQM QoS between nodes and out to the internet.

That being said, Cat6/6a is full-duplex, almost zero latency and 1-gig/multi-gig/10GB capable. Putting a dedicated AP on the end is just often a less fault-prone choice with more automatic upsides than not. Mesh can be great, though, as @Jeffb detailed (heck, I've recommended Eero Pro to four friends lately and all had nothing but glowing feedback). But if wire is possible from the get-go, why not. You could even buy a whole-house product that supported wired backhaul (like Orbi RBK50 or Eero Pro) and run it by wire, locally powering each node via an AC adapter (no PoE necessary). That might be the best of both worlds for your use-case.

 

[tilhasbb]

100% I will be using CAT6/6A for backhaul.
Now I'm looking at Orbi RBK50 vs Eero Pro. Do you know if any of them allows you to run same SSID but different channel so I don't have any crosstalk?

 

[Trip]

That's one of the major concessions with consumer mesh products. I don't know of a single one that allows running different channels per AP, which you do get with proper centralized, hardwired AP products. And with the higher-end stuff, they'll even auto-optimize channel selection based on the least interfered-with mix. That piece is likely not needed, though, in your brother's case and location. Still, a nice to have item.

 

[tilhasbb]

Is what I'm doing crazy?
Since I will have a CAT6/6A backhaul why would I not just do an extender?

 

[tilhasbb]

Kind of reading this article... https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wir...s/33023-don-t-get-caught-in-the-wireless-mesh

I want to do this

MESH (Orbi RBK50 and Eero Pro ) are made for this... Maybe I can go for a cheaper solution above.

 

[tilhasbb]

Gotcha. All he needs for a gateway then is something that can NAT 2Gb/s, no SQM/QoS needed (lucky him!).

All things considered, I'd still put in a wired router and centrally-controlled, hardwired APs. An all-in-one will likely be too weak in wifi coverage at the house edges, and no consumer mesh product (besides maybe tri-band Eero Pro) will give anywhere near the set-and-forget performance and airtime flexibility that can simply and not-very-expensively be achieved by doing even just cheap hardwired APs and just a small PoE switch. Here's a very basic sample stack:

Cisco RV320 <$140 USD (closeout)
Cisco SG250-08HP $115 USD
(3) TP-Link EAP225v3's ($60 ea.), $180 USD total, then run the controller on an always-on PC or buy an $85 OC200 controller

For at or well-under $500 (in what probably is a multi-hundred thousand dollar house, mind you) you'd have a vastly more upgrade-able, serviceable and reliable network.

I started researching this idea but I realized a few things.
1) OC200 is 10/100mpbs only. Does this mean if the internet is at 1G the max speed i'll get on wifi is 100mbps as it is limited by the controller? Or does it just need to be on the same router/switch as it controls the APs
2) I see the EAP245v3 has a much faster 5Ghz and it runs about 90$. Do you recommend it?
3) Do I have access to have them run on different channels? I'm thinking of having 3 APs.
Top Floor, Channel 1 for 2.4Ghz, Middle Channel 6 and basement Channel 11. Or do they have to be on the same channel and if that's the case do those TP-links let me adjust the power level?

 

[Trip]

1) The OC200 is just a controller, sending/receiving only control plane data, no data plane traffic moves through it at all, so it will never bottleneck your actual endpoint traffic.
2) Yes, I'd recommend the EAP245 over the 225 in most cases. I only volunteered the 225 based on price ($60 vs $95).
3) Yes, you can manually specify a different channel per AP, both for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz.

It's only with higher-end systems like Ruckus where you can allow the system to auto-select the channel layout for you, based on real-time analytics on surrounding network broadcasts, as well as automatically adjust Tx/Rx power based on the best co-RSSI balance. But stuff like that shouldn't matter too much for most simpler home setups.

 

[tilhasbb]

I didn't know about Ruckus. They are expensive retail but on eBay they are pretty reasonable.

R310 = 150$ = Indoor 802.11ac 2x2:2
R500 = 70$ = Indoor 802.11ac 2x2:2
R700 = 70-100$ = Indoor 802.11ac 3x3:3
But the ZoneDirector is like 500$+...

Maybe I can use a Zonedirector 1100 with an R710 ?

 

[Trip]

If you went with Ruckus you could forgo the discrete controller (ZoneDirector) by running the Unleashed firmware (flashable to both Unleashed and "non-Unleashed" product SKUs), which has the controller embedded in each AP's firmware, and uses one AP as the master, the others as slaves, with auto-promotion/healing if the master ever goes down. Pretty slick and works well. APs that support Unleashed are the R310/20, 500/10, 710/20/30/50. I would suggest AC Wave 2 models which are most cost-effective, aka. the R510 and R710, both available working-pull on eBay for modest discounts.

I run Unleashed at home on an R720 and an R510 and it's been set-and-forget since day 1; even with hilarious amounts of neighboring RF, I've never had a problem on either 2.4 or 5Ghz. BeamFlex and PD-MRC really do work well.

 

[tilhasbb]

What about the R610?

by the way, thank you for telling about Ruckus. Reading all the reviews and tutorials... This router is exactly what I was looking for! I'm going to get some for my own house.

 

[Trip]

For reference, here's the current Ruckus product guide.

The R610 is AC Wave 2 with 3x3 spatial streams (vs. 2x2 on R510) and 512 antenna patterns per band (vs. 64 on the R510), but slightly lower receive sensitivity (-100 vs -103 dB) so actually a potential for not quite as good a signal lock at range, depending on client load.

In layman's terms, usually more costly versus not a whole lot of practical home-use advantages over the R510, unless you have a lot more mobile/IoT devices in short reach and/or 3x3 clients, which are rare (most mobiles and laptops are 2x2 at the most).