Looking for Advice on Mesh with Ethernet Backhall on large property

[coxhaus]

First floor and the basement are fairly close together. I think I would go back to 2 APs. Then if you need to add 1 later you will know where. I think your 5 GHz is not going to work very well. You will mainly be using 2.4GHz.

You really need direct line of site for 5 GHz to work at the top end of it's bandwidth. Just don't plan on it and you will be OK.

PS
Make sure the R310 has the top end 2.4GHz bandwidth since you are mainly going to be using it. I don't know the specs. The WAP581 AP links at 144 connection on a 2.4GHz connection.

 

[Trip]

The Cisco WAP581 APs will have more future than the old Ruckus units since it is a new design and an AC wave 2 4x4 unit.

Cisco seems to support most small biz gear 6 or 7 years, Ruckus 4 to 5, so that's true. But old Cisco is the same as old Ruckus; they're both designed off the same base 802.11 amendments. Small biz WAPs are still commodity RF design, per 581 photos. Nothing unique; you'll find the same stuff in a UniFi, Grandstream or TP-Link AP. Contrast that with a comparable Ruckus R710. CNC machined multi-axis antennas, custom-design daughterboards, etc. all work together to yield better RF sensitivity and selectivity and interference mitigation. It is a better mouse trap, but then again you're comparing an SMB product to an enterprise one, so it's really an apples to oranges comparison. The more fair comparison would be Cisco Aironet, but unfortunately the cost and licensing for it even makes Ruckus look cheap, so I find Ruckus to be the best of both worlds.

I would also think the Cisco WAP581 AP would be simpler to setup than the Ruckus using VLANs and clusters. The Cisco WAP581 APs are so simple.

Here's a video of the Cisco WAP setup and one of Ruckus Unleashed. To me, Ruckus is easier hands down, but to each their own. Plus it's an actual true controller-based management plane, whereas WAP is just using neighborhood discovery to push static config changes, and lacks anything beyond that. Not the biggest deal in the world for a simpler home or small office config (for which it's designed). Again, not really a fair comparison, as the better product to compare with is Aironet, which has a separate control plane.

Nice! Can I mix and match? Like adding a R510 on the same network? Or possibly Wi-fi 6 or will I need to replace everything? Does the Cisco WAP581 AP require a control or are they like the Ruckus and can run Unleashed?

Yep, you can mix and match any/all models as long as there's a release of Unleashed that supports all models in your setup. I'd err on the side of newer AC Wave 2 stuff, though.

The Cisco WAP581 APs can not be run with a separate controller. Cisco has enterprise level gear for really large networks. The Cisco WAP581 APs have the controller software built in for up to 16 APs. If the master controller goes down the cluster automatically promotes another AP to be master. In your words the Cisco WAP581 AP already has unleashed built-in. No reason to re-flash firmware.

Indeed, WAPs are great for smaller deployments of same-subnet, more static and smaller type setups. They don't have the scale capabilities built in like Ruckus, though, and again Aironet is a better and more fair comparison there.

Even with weaker interference mitigation and airspace tuning, the 581 is still a solid value at ~$250 ish street price brand new. For that many spatial streams you're have to do all R710's or higher. So it could very well be the better buy for the OP in this case.

 

[coxhaus]

Hey Trip how good is the 2.4GHz in a R310? What can you expect on a link rate?

Sounds like you are selling R710 not the R310 as the preferred AP.

PS
I think in the future we can start maxing out 2.4GHz with all these new internet demands for 4K for TV and games. The internet pipes are now big enough to do this. 2.4GHz has its limits and we may start hitting it. Definitely 8K will. The bigger the household the more likely we can max out 2.4GHz. WiFi 6 may help but will it be in time. I would not buy WiFi 6 now, not this year.

 

[Trip]

2.4 Ghz link rates on an R310 are not really any better than you'll see on any other dual-chain N AP; it's more so the airspace utilization and connection quality in the presence of any interference that tends to be better. This is mostly due to PD-MRC, radio algorithms and controller intelligence -- mostly all Ruckus-exclusive items... at least until their patents run out soon and everyone copies what they've done, which will be a good thing for all of us I would presume.

Re- the R710, it's the most direct comparison to a WAP581 in terms of spatial streams (4x4/3x3 on the 581, vs 4x4/4x4 on the 710), so I brought it up mainly on that reason. In terms of effective range, it's likely a fair bit more, but again, we're looking at a street price of roughly double the 581, so it's a tough comparison. In that light, the 581 definitely wins on value for the spatial streams you get (presuming you have the clients to take advantage, of course).

Re- 2.4 being maxed out, definitely agree on that, both on channels and throughput. I was just at an apartment complex where 2.4 was literally unusable in both regards. The place was so overbroadcasted that even 5Ghz was almost unusable as well. It will be interesting to see how much of a real-world difference .11ax can make once we get the client population up to where it needs to be and enough APs are implementing OFDMA properly...

 

[tilhasbb]

Thank you everyone.
So I'm going to pull the trigger in the morning. The real question is 2 x WAP581 or 3x WAP581s?
One in the Upstairs and one in the main room. Would I need one in the basement?

 

[L&LD]

@tilhasbb, need one? Probably not. Want one. Yeah.

 

[Val D.]

Would I need one in the basement?

You can always add one in the basement. Start with two, see how it goes.

And please, don't compare consumer router signal strength with AP signal strength. Many small business AP don't "shout" too much, but clients "listen" and "understand" better. I'm using EAP245 APs and the signal strength is lower than my previous RT-AC86U router, but clients connect much faster and the throughput is actually higher. To my surprise even one EAP245 beats the ASUS "gaming router" total simultaneous throughput easily*. AP for $70 vs "gaming router" for $170.

* - How do I know? Before getting EAP245 I was using the RT-AC86U as an AP. Same router, just different AP.

 

[tilhasbb]

Hello Everyone,
Thank you for your help. I ordered 3x Cisco WAP581. They are going to be in my home till my brother's home is complete in September. Gives me time to test them, and understand how to install them.

1) What software tools would you recommend to help me identify optimal locations for the APs? One that I can do a survey. Netspot comes up alot on google searches but it doesn't seem to support 3 floors. I'd like your advice on what to get and how I should place the APs.

2) Any good tutorials on how to set it up or are the manuals pretty good?

 

[tilhasbb]

Do I give the 2.4 and 5Ghz the same name and wifi password? I want the AP to decide where each device connects.

 

[L&LD]

Do I give the 2.4 and 5Ghz the same name and wifi password? I want the AP to decide where each device connects.

Not if your name is L&LD.

But since you want the AP to decide, sure.

 

[haykong]

Do I give the 2.4 and 5Ghz the same name and wifi password? I want the AP to decide where each device connects.

I'm too late in the game... I was going to suggest used Ruckus R500 for 3x R500 for $40 each and plus 1 year warranty with the reseller. That would gave given time before upgrading to Wifi 6.

 

[tilhasbb]

Great News!!
We are allowed to put the APs on the ceiling!
I've marked the locations in a RED circle on where we will place them.

https://imgur.com/CsD4mRT
Update: Did a few circles to see if I have an issue and do you think I would on the 2nd floor top right master bedroom? https://imgur.com/HSZA9mT

Let me know if you think I need a 4th AP if so where to put it? (If a 4th is needed it won't be in the ceiling)

 

[degrub]

i would move the basement up and to the left in your drawing, just inside the door on the 17x17 room ceiling so that all rooms have direct line of sight through one wall/door.

Depends on how happy you want the wife. You may need a dedicated 5 GHz band AP in the MBR.
That might also serve the guest br below if you also use 2.4 GHz. i would put it on the right hand side outside wall to give good signal in the restroom as well as not push too much into the hallway.

i would also pull the first floor closer to the stairs and the 2nd floor in the same direction to avoid overlap with an AP on the outside wall of the MBR.

The coverage area is small enough you may get too much overlap with one on each ceiling, particularly on 2.4 GHz. You need an azimuth and polar plot for the AP to get a good idea..

Make sure you get the cable and boxes placed even if you don't use them. You can always put a dummy smoke detector over the box blank plate.
Put an ethernet box in the garage as well instead of trying to cover too much from the house. S.Os don't usually mind cable runs in the garage ;-)

Mechanical room equipment and Laundry equipment typically emit broadband noise on motor starts, so you can see short interruption on wireless. One reason to hard wire the TV instead of wireless. Ethernet wall boxes in likely spots in every room is my general strategy. If it is CAT6 or higher, have someone install and verify each run meets spec. and not just continuity.

 

[Trip]

Follow up in @degrub's commentary, three WAP581's are likely going to be more than enough; potentially even a bit too much if placed in too close to one another. Ideally, want equidistant broadcast overlap points in the -60- to -75 dB range, to encourage optimal roaming behavior. In order to achieve this, you may have to latterly stagger your AP placements from floor to floor to spread out the distance between then (as opposed to placing each at the horizontal center of each ceiling). You may also have to play with power levels on a per-AP basis, in order to tweak co-AP RSSI to optimal readings for your environment.

 

[degrub]

Yeah, that is where using a few on the wall rather than the ceiling really helps. i have 4 WAP371s on 5GHz in my two story. RSSI is around -70 or less where the other is at -57 dB or more. 1600 sqr ft per floor, but lots of interfering HVAC foil duct return, walls, etc in the most unfortunate places that are in the way.

 

[tilhasbb]

Another thing to add is the 1st floor has 10ft ceilings and the basement and 2nd floor have 9ft ceilings and I'm about 1600sqr ft per floor.

Soo there are florecent lights are in the garage... is this going to cause an issue with the wifi? If not I can add another AP in there.
Moving the Basement AP to the front right this is what happens
https://imgur.com/54jFvSE

Follow up in @degrub's commentary, three WAP581's are likely going to be more than enough; potentially even a bit too much if placed in too close to one another. Ideally, want equidistant broadcast overlap points in the -60- to -75 dB range, to encourage optimal roaming behavior. In order to achieve this, you may have to latterly stagger your AP placements from floor to floor to spread out the distance between then (as opposed to placing each at the horizontal center of each ceiling). You may also have to play with power levels on a per-AP basis, in order to tweak co-AP RSSI to optimal readings for your environment.

I don't want to have an AP in the bedrooms up stairs and I'm not allowed to have it in the Kitchen (some electrical codes). As for the basement I moved the AP up right.

Update: If I add an AP in the garage like this (in Pink)
https://imgur.com/hTGhql1

Update 2: OR I can also move the 1st floor AP closer to the stairs but then i need 4th router 100%
https://imgur.com/BbMKYii

 

[degrub]

Another thing to add is the 1st floor has 10ft ceilings and the basement and 2nd floor have 9ft ceilings and I'm about 1600sqr ft per floor.

>>> as do i

Soo there are florecent lights are in the garage... is this going to cause an issue with the wifi? If not I can add another AP in there.

>>>maybe. If they do, then it will be worse than with an AP in the garage - if you really need wireless there. i would put an ethernet box in the wall and see.

Moving the Basement AP to the front right this is what happens
https://imgur.com/54jFvSE

>>>i would not. BTW, what is the basis for the circles ?

I don't want to have an AP in the bedrooms up stairs

>>>other than aesthetics..... anyway you could also put in a closet or other secluded space, perhaps ?
Sometimes even cabinets work or over the top of tall wardrobes.

and I'm not allowed to have it in the Kitchen (some electrical codes). As for the basement I moved the AP up right.

Update: If I add an AP in the garage like this (in Pink)
https://imgur.com/hTGhql1

Update 2: OR I can also move the 1st floor AP closer to the stairs but then i need 4th router 100%
https://imgur.com/BbMKYii

>>> ok, likely.

 

[tilhasbb]

So I'm using the WAP 581 - Signal coverage patterns. I'm looking at the 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz they are almost a circle.
https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/produ...asheet-c78-738872.html#Signalcoveragepatterns

I like the idea of using the closets but where?.
So how about this.
This is what it would look like with 3 APs. => https://imgur.com/HnTWmjV
Where would you put a 4th AP? I'm thinking garage on the far left middle like this (In Pink) => https://imgur.com/mPwfdJL
I could also play with the power of the APs to reduce the range.

UPDATE: So I 've decided a 4th AP is required.
So I tried to use "circles" for wifi range. I'm going to estimate that every floor it goes up or down is a 25% range hit. So from 2nd floor to basement is getting 56.25% range. Below is the new locations of the APs. Only person with bad range is the 4th bedroom (2nd floor corner left) but there is an ethernet jack in the room.
https://imgur.com/2WZkLTR


Note: Every place where I'll potentially have a TV has a CAT6 jack and the TVs will be hardwired.

 

[degrub]

i assume you understand those are "clear air" ideal, usually theoretical, patterns with no obstructions, no account for reflections, etc ? In other words, your mileage may varyand those plots represent the "best" it can be. With higher power, the power of the reflections increase as well.

And don't forget that wireless communication is controlled by the weaker device in a link. So the APs can be fine, but the individual devices may not be capable of the same transmission power or receiver sensitivity

If you have RG6 around, you may have the opportunity to use MOCA 2 in case you need to supplement the wireless coverage. Or at least with enough CAT6

i would make sure every room has at least one CAT6 outlet. Low power 5 GHz can work wonders in rooms with poor signal or throughput.

 

[tilhasbb]

i assume you understand those are "clear air" ideal, usually theoretical, patterns with no obstructions, no account for reflections, etc ? In other words, your mileage may varyand those plots represent the "best" it can be. With higher power, the power of the reflections increase as well.

And don't forget that wireless communication is controlled by the weaker device in a link. So the APs can be fine, but the individual devices may not be capable of the same transmission power or receiver sensitivity

If you have RG6 around, you may have the opportunity to use MOCA 2 in case you need to supplement the wireless coverage. Or at least with enough CAT6

i would make sure every room has at least one CAT6 outlet. Low power 5 GHz can work wonders in rooms with poor signal or throughput.

If you look at the photos. Every "L" is a CAT6 outlet. Except the "L cam" those are external POE cameras.

I understand these are the clear air patterns but I do not want to add more than 4 APs, that would just mean a large amount of cross talk. So I want to understand the best locations for the 4 APs in the house. As now till midnight tonight I can sign off on ethernet drop locations. Including ceiling ones.