Looking for Advice on Mesh with Ethernet Backhall on large property

[degrub]

re: the garage location. Cheap insurance would be to place a box on the wall to the right about a meter down from the ceiling. This places the highest beam strength (side and up) into the MBR and bathroom. Alternative would be to place on opposite wall. Signal radiation angled behind the backplate of the AP is usually low strength.

 

[tilhasbb]

re: the garage location. Cheap insurance would be to place a box on the wall to the right about a meter down from the ceiling. This places the highest beam strength (side and up) into the MBR and bathroom. Alternative would be to place on opposite wall. Signal radiation angled behind the backplate of the AP is usually low strength.

Genius! Thank you, I didn't think about that.

I'm thinking forget about the ceiling mount in the garage but having it on the right wall 8ft high. This would also have the AP much farther away from all the other APs

 

[Smokindog]

I don't know if any of this will help you but I posted the basics of my large house deployment using ASUS routers in this thread. My home was built in 2002 and most every room has AT LEAST one wall box with 2 CAT5E and 1 Quad shield RG6 that all terminate in an upstairs closet. Some rooms like the media room and game room have boxes on opposing walls. Even the garages, the attics, and backyard outside walls have wiring. PLUS make sure you run multiple cables down to the place where cable/phone will terminate on the house.

That would be my message to you is to thin how you might set up the home in multiple scenarios and run wire, and error to too many rather than too few.

https://www.snbforums.com/threads/a...ming-assist-best-practices.61898/#post-552944

PS - do this same analysis for natural gas lines and outdoor electric outlets and switches. For instance, I've got 3 circuits on timers in the soffits with plenty of outlets for Christmas lights

I can't tell you the number of people I know who tore up a 1 year old patio because they overlooked how they would actually enjoy their new home living space

PPS - if ground hasn't yet been broken on the build I'd not buy any equipment at this time. Wait until you get closer to install. Tech and pricing change too fast in your favor to put it on the shelf for 6 months to a year during construction. If need be in the "mid build" stages just find an old AC/N router you probably have in the closet to get you by.

 

[tilhasbb]

Thank you!
I already bought 4x Cisco WAP 581

So here is what I have in mind
https://imgur.com/2WZkLTR
Red, Green and Blue will be ceiling APs. Pink will be an AP 8ft in the garage wall
L are CAT 6 Jacks
L (cam) are CAT 6 runs for POE Cameras that go straight to basement to PVR system

I have till Midnight tonight for any additional locations or modifications after that it is signed off by the engineer and NO CHANGES are allowed. So if you guys think or see of any additional locations let me know and I will add them.

 

[degrub]

Genius! Thank you, I didn't think about that.

I'm thinking forget about the ceiling mount in the garage but having it on the right wall 8ft high. This would also have the AP much farther away from all the other APs

A wall mount in the garage will likely interfere with the 2nd floor AP in the MBR and bath area if it is typical plywood decking for the floor and gypsum board for the ceiling/walls ( at least in the US). Tile floor will attenuate that some.
That was the reason i suggested moving the 2nd floor AP to the left (closer to the hallway end and out into the common area) to avoid too much overlap. However, if that doesn't work out, could end up needing the small 5GHz AP in the MBR as i mentioned before.

i would keep the ceiling mount in the garage until you figure out placement in the garage, particularly if you keep the 2nd floor AP as shown.

You might want to add a CAT6 box in the lower left unfinished basement area unless you have access to run cable.

i would avoid putting my cable termination area ( if i read the sketch correctly) next to or within the mechanical room if there are electric motors and switches in there. i would avoid even using a common wall unless the termination box is metal, conduit is used, and properly earthed. Too easy to pick up electrical noise each time the blower or pump turns on. Maybe the electrical designs are different there. i don't know.

it will be trial and adjust when you install no matter what you do. That is one reason all keep suggesting as many CAT6 outlets as practical.

 

[tilhasbb]

Ok so I'll add an extra ceiling CAT 6 in the garage.
I've added CAT 6 everywhere as per your recommendations. Update =>
Basement = https://imgur.com/xWN7AXd
First Floor = https://imgur.com/AfYN04h
2nd Floor = https://imgur.com/2p62bvx

As for the cables in the mechanical room. That room has two things, on the far right is a gas hot water tank and next to it is the air condition air handler. The air handler will be using a maximum of 400Watts.
There will be 1 CAT6 going to the laudry room (2nd floor) where all the cables terminate, including the fiber optic modem, router, etc. The other CAT6 are going straight up to the roof where there are going to be POE camera's installed. There will be a small PVR recording and the CAT6 going back up is for internet connect for notification of movement/etc. I'd like to keep it there since if I finish the basement I would close that part off and make a door.
The electrical panel and such will be in the garage. Not sure which wall/etc it will be on yet...

 

[tilhasbb]

Bump! Last call, I was given till 5:00pm today as they are revising with pricing.

If you guys can please just take a look over and if it was your own house where else would you add a CAT6 jack

 

[degrub]

Bump! Last call, I was given till 5:00pm today as they are revising with pricing.

If you guys can please just take a look over and if it was your own house where else would you add a CAT6 jack

where does your phone landline, cable, etc terminate and where do you plan to place the ISP hardware (modem, router, etc) ?

Where do you plan to place your networking gear (central switch, router, etc) ?

It may be convenient to place all of the above in the same place, but i would have a small concern about being so close to the dryer / washer motor starters here in the US since they tend to emit a burst of RF on start. That being said, it may not be an issue for your case.

My gear and cable terminations are in a small closet 2x2 ft closet about 12-15 ft away and i have not seen any issues with that or fluorescent lights.

 

[degrub]

Bump! Last call, I was given till 5:00pm today as they are revising with pricing.

If you guys can please just take a look over and if it was your own house where else would you add a CAT6 jack

one other tip - for your cable and low voltage wiring (ethernet, phone, etc), make sure the installer places metal shields on the stud edges (both sides) where the cable traverses. otherwise, sheet rock and trim carpenters can hit the wire with nails or screws and cause issues. Plumbers face the same issue with drain lines. i had to repair two drain line leaks and replace 4 120v cables due to the trim carpenters installing baseboard with extra long nails !

If you are placing your networking gear in two separate locations, double up on the CAT6 so you can support LAG and use a faster internal connection if needed later. Also provides a built in spare.

 

[tilhasbb]

where does your phone landline, cable, etc terminate and where do you plan to place the ISP hardware (modem, router, etc) ?

Where do you plan to place your networking gear (central switch, router, etc) ?

It may be convenient to place all of the above in the same place, but i would have a small concern about being so close to the dryer / washer motor starters here in the US since they tend to emit a burst of RF on start. That being said, it may not be an issue for your case.

My gear and cable terminations are in a small closet 2x2 ft closet about 12-15 ft away and i have not seen any issues with that or fluorescent lights.

If you look on the 2nd floor https://imgur.com/2p62bvx
Opposite the washer/dryer is the LVP panel. I've also requested a dedicated 120V for that panel so it should clean power.
All the network great will be in that panel.

 

[tilhasbb]

Hey Everyone,

I having 2nd thoughts on installing the 4x WPA581. The house is almost complete and I checked every corner on every floor with two laptops to find no 5Ghz signal to be found and very weak (-85db) and less on the 2.4Ghz bands. So I'm very lucky not having interference. The issue i'm having is the WPA581 5Ghz AND 2.4Ghz band have very crappy range. I've tested everything and tried to resolve it... so I'm looking for alternatives.

A Wireless AP that is POE and Ethernet Backhaul. I quickly checked Rukus R650 4x4:4 Wifi6 , R750 4x4:4 Wifi6, R730 8x8:8, R720 4x4:4, R710 4X4 are all above 300$/each even on eBay.

Any other alternatives that are cheaper and better 5Ghz range or should I still try with the WPA581s?

 

[Trip]

For raw physical link layer quality, Ruckus is often superior to most anything else, especially for mobiles (PD-MRC works wonders). Mind you, you still need proper engineering and survey work -- business-class distributed wifi is meant to run at lower amplification than most consumer wifi, which means cleaner signal to the endpoint, but only if placement and AP selection is done right. The 500/600 series are designed to broadcast in a tighter/closer azimuth/elevation donut (ie. average-sized rooms), versus the 700 series, which is tuned for a much more broad and less spatially compact population (ie. sitting on a ceiling in an auditorium).

Also note the PoE requirements of certain newer, higher spatial stream and/or higher-power APs -- they will often require over 30W of PoE to function at full amplification and performance. This means either an 802.3bt PoE switch or equivalently-capable injectors. And make sure you use commercial-grade solid-core Cat6 (tested and verified) for your structured runs (Belden, Berk-Terk, Panduit, Mohawk, General, Vertical, etc.) -- no Chinese whitelabel flavor-of-the-year.

 

[tilhasbb]

For raw physical link layer quality, Ruckus is often superior to most anything else, especially for mobiles (PD-MRC works wonders). Mind you, you still need proper engineering and survey work -- business-class distributed wifi is meant to run at lower amplification than most consumer wifi, which means cleaner signal to the endpoint, but only if placement and AP selection is done right. The 500/600 series are designed to broadcast in a tighter/closer azimuth/elevation donut (ie. average-sized rooms), versus the 700 series, which is tuned for a much more broad and less spatially compact population (ie. sitting on a ceiling in an auditorium).

Also note the PoE requirements of certain newer, higher spatial stream and/or higher-power APs -- they will often require over 30W of PoE to function at full amplification and performance. This means either an 802.3bt PoE switch or equivalently-capable injectors. And make sure you use commercial-grade solid-core Cat6 (tested and verified) for your structured runs (Belden, Berk-Terk, Panduit, Mohawk, General, Vertical, etc.) -- no Chinese whitelabel flavor-of-the-year.

I had specified the builder use CAT 6 cable. I'll go to the house cut a little peice of and check if it's solid core. I was going to look for an ethernet cable test once they install jacks, I'll look to see if I can rent a Fluke tester.

So if I want to upgrade over the WPA581 I should go for a Ruckus 7xx line.

Has anyone tested the difference between the WPA581 to Ruckus 7xx line? I don't want to sell and buy for tiny increase in signal strenght.

 

[Trip]

So if I want to upgrade over the WPA581 I should go for a Ruckus 7xx line.
Has anyone tested the difference between the WPA581 to Ruckus 7xx line? I don't want to sell and buy for tiny increase in signal strenght.

If you comprehended my previous reply at all, then you'd be inclined to realize the 700 (or 800) series may not be the most optimal choice. Quality wireless is not about blasting as much signal all over the place from as few radio cells as possible; it's about blanketing the desired area with the required minimum RSSI at any given location, using as many radio locations as are necessary for the hardware in question. So a Ruckus 700/800 may out-amplify a WAP581, maybe even by as much as 25-30%, but given your minimum bandwidth goals at any given location, that still may not be enough. You need to approach the problem differently, because most all of these similar class APs are lower-power/amplification by design.

Instead of placing a single R710 (or WAP581 for that matter) in the middle of a floor and, acting like a consumer, getting all pissed off when the 5Ghz doesn't deliver the requisite bandwidth at distances that it really was never designed to, you instead want to act like a wifi engineer, spec'ing multiple equidistant Cat6 ceiling runs inside that same broadcast area and putting in, for example, two or even three R510's (or WAP581's at slightly lower power), to work together to blanket that same area with lower power, lower noise 5Ghz, which will be more returnable by the comparatively weak radios in your client devices (giving you higher actual throughput from all locations). That is how you increase usable fronthaul over distance the proper way.

At the end of the day, if you're looking for a business-class wifi AP -- from any brand -- that's going to knock your socks off with amplification on the level of a consumer all-in-one device, you're barking up the wrong tree my man. For more of an education in the way wifi works, please see the following Duckware article, specifically section 16, A Reality Check.

 

[tilhasbb]

If you comprehended my previous reply at all, then you'd be inclined to realize the 700 (or 800) series may not be the most optimal choice. Quality wireless is not about blasting as much signal all over the place from as few radio cells as possible; it's about blanketing the desired area with the required minimum RSSI at any given location, using as many radio locations as are necessary for the hardware in question. So a Ruckus 700/800 may out-amplify a WAP581, maybe even by as much as 25-30%, but given your minimum bandwidth goals at any given location, that still may not be enough. You need to approach the problem differently, because most all of these similar class APs are lower-power/amplification by design.

Instead of placing a single R710 (or WAP581 for that matter) in the middle of a floor and, acting like a consumer, getting all pissed off when the 5Ghz doesn't deliver the requisite bandwidth at distances that it really was never designed to, you instead want to act like a wifi engineer, spec'ing multiple equidistant Cat6 ceiling runs inside that same broadcast area and putting in, for example, two or even three R510's (or WAP581's at slightly lower power), to work together to blanket that same area with lower power, lower noise 5Ghz, which will be more returnable by the comparatively weak radios in your client devices (giving you higher actual throughput from all locations). That is how you increase usable fronthaul over distance the proper way.

At the end of the day, if you're looking for a business-class wifi AP -- from any brand -- that's going to knock your socks off with amplification on the level of a consumer all-in-one device, you're barking up the wrong tree my man. For more of an education in the way wifi works, please see the following Duckware article, specifically section 16, A Reality Check.

Thank you for the details and I've got some reading to do this weekend!

I did ask for two local professional for installation location on wifi and both refused to give any recommendations as they needed to do tests once the house was completed... So I placed ethernet jacks in every room and a few key locations (closets, pantry, hidden locations,etc). As for the Ceiling aps, I used a rudimentary approach for placement. Look at the photo below to give you an idea of where I'll be placing the 4 routers.

https://imgur.com/EzLpQHr

I checked at the house recently and I will be the only person broadcasing in the 5Ghz and 2.4Ghz. (The house is a little remote)
So I'm thinking of the following below but I won't be able to do any tests before house is complete. Mid October.

For 5Ghz
UNII-3 = Channel 161 on top floor
UNII-1 = Channel 36 on the main floor
UNII-2 = Channel 64 in the basement
UNII-2 Extended = Channel 124 in the garage

For 2.4Ghz
Channel 11 on the top foor
Channel 1 on the main floor
Channel 6 in the basement
2.4Ghz off in garage