Looking for Wifi6 Mesh - No Orbi!

[Tech9]

I dunno, that does not match the advice I've read from people whose competence I trust.

You trust people who live with obsolete knowledge. In 2022 trust Qualcomm/Broadcom designers. Set your modern router on Auto and see what channel it will use. This is the channel the chipset sees with higher available bandwidth. Measure the throughput with 1-6-11 and Auto to see the difference. Then you'll know. Modern routers deal with interference better and push more data in busy environments. Older ones use to have throughput issues.

Avoiding 40MHz wide channel is correct advice. It not only takes almost the entire spectrum, but also reduces the range. As a result the throughput may be even lower, compared to 20MHz wide channel. In today's world 2.4GHz Wi-Fi is used mostly for slower devices and up to 90Mbps throughput (2-stream client) is more than enough for most applications. I use 40MHz wide channel on 5GHz in my business environment with multiple access points.

 

[heaven]

Hi, I'll put my two cents in. I'm the owner of ZenWiFi ET8 and was actually curious about Orbi because ET8 has some major issues and terrible support, I'd say zero support because I didn't receive even a single response since I've bought this thing.

My setup is similar to yours. The main router is connected to the internet and the satellite is in another part of the house connected via the WiFi 6e backhaul and has a NAS attached to it via Ethernet. Everything seemed to be great in the beginning, WiFi speeds above 300Mbps in every room, and roaming worked (though it required some tweaks, especially the smart connect rules!).

I can also say the 6e backhaul is quite good, the speeds are around 2Gbps and it doesn't affect the performance of other bands, which is great. I don't have 6e devices at the moment so bought the ET8 system especially with this in mind, that the 6e band will be used by the backhaul only.

Then I configured Plex on my NAS and here's where things go wrong... Every time any other client in the network is being roamed from the router to satellite, other clients in the network lose connectivity to the NAS, which disrupts the playback. I can reproduce this and have reported it to ASUS (with zero feedback, of course).

So I start playing a movie on my MacBook, which is connected to the main router, grab my iPhone, and move closer to the satellite, the phone is roamed to the satellite but my mac, at the same time, loses connection to the NAS and the playback freezes. I tried running 3 ping commands from my mac to the router, the satellite, and the NAS, once the phone is roamed to the satellite my mac loses connection to both the satellite and the NAS for about 20-30 seconds. But it keeps working on the phone, where I also started a ping command! So there are bugs in the firmware, something is going wrong with the network configuration and roam event breaks the connectivity. While this is happening the router shows the satellite is connected and the connection is great so I guess the bug is somewhere in the network routes in the router.

I've mentioned Plex just as an example, of course, this affects many other parts of the network. For example, my TimeMachine backups on mac often break because the network drive disconnects randomly, connections between other devices in the network break, etc.

Another issue is with the kernel and drivers they use. There are multiple kernel panic errors in the logs, I was able to debug them and found there's a bug in the chip driver they use, I even found people who fixed that with an explanation of what's wrong. Also reported to ASUS, also ignored. As a result, routers may reboot unexpectedly.

Firmware updates are rare and it doesn't feel they worry about all these problems. Netgear was my last hope but it seems they aren't any better. Marketing takes a bigger part of the budget than the development, it seems. Ads are great and promising but in reality, all this garbage simply doesn't work as promised and there is no reliable mesh system on the market at the moment.

 

[avtella]

In

I dunno, that does not match the advice I've read from people whose competence I trust. That advice says, if you live in an area with lots of 2.4GHz WiFi users:

* Stick to the 1-6-11 channel usage pattern (assuming your neighbors mostly do likewise). If you choose an intermediate channel, you won't magically find some free bandwidth there. Instead, your transmissions now overlap the frequencies of two sets of neighbors not just one set. That means double the opportunity for collisions and forced retransmissions, degrading the WiFi experience for both you and your neighbors.

* Don't use a 40MHz channel. Again, doing so means you're conflicting with twice as many neighbors as otherwise, degrading the experience for everybody.

You can get away with ignoring these guidelines if you have no near WiFi-using neighbors. But if you do, and choose to ignore them anyway, all I can say is I am very glad I am not your neighbor.

One of the things that horrified me (after I knew better) about my Orbis' default setup is that they seemed to ignore both these guidelines. They definitely enabled 40MHz on 2.4GHz by default (and made it pretty obscure how to disable it), and while I don't have them turned on at the moment to check, I think they defaulted to channel 3, meaning that they overlapped all three of the standard channels. I will need a brown paper bag to put over my head if I ever discuss WiFi channel usage with my neighbors.

Most manufacturers I've seen have auto select that seem to stick to 1/6/11.. even in an apartment I'm at right now literally only one person has it outside that, at channel 4. Netgear is usully the biggest offender in regards to auto select going outside 1/6/11, and low and behold when I've switched it back from like channel 8 back to 1/6/11 I've had less issues especially at signal edge. At my family home similar case, most neighbors at 1/6/11 with one or two offending outside that.

 

[Tech9]

Asus routers stick to channels 4 or 8 in my environment. From AC68U to AX88U. The two channels offer the best throughput indeed.

 

[avtella]

Haven't seen that before, guess differing environments.. Most Netgear Ive tested go out of the 1/6/11 at some point even when everyone else/most follows the rules, I've complained about it but was usually ignored, even when demonstrating differences in throughput from increased interference. Like I can understand if it was a hodge podge of channels in use in the neigborhood and then it picks like 2, 4,8 etc but..

 

[Tech9]

Routers based on the same hardware select the same channels. The logic is in chipset drivers. AC68U, R7000 and EA6900 all do the same thing, as well as AC86U and C2300. This is my experience and I can demonstrate this exact behaviour. Routers after 2010 rarely use standard 1-6-11 channels on Auto.

 

[avtella]

Dunno maybe some leave it as is but, they actually can tweak things like channel selection/width from the OEM sides well, at least from my experience working with their engineers in the past. On NGs side I think they may actually be done by the third party OEM engineers working on NGs behalf, I should ask them next time if they're contracted from there, ie Delta Networks for the QCA models if I recall not sure about the BCM ones.

 

[Tech9]

I have 3x Netgear products in my routers collection and they all prefer channel 4 after factory reset, on stock firmware. The router manufacturer listens to what Broadcom/Qualcomm engineers are saying.

 

[avtella]

Seems about right with NG, 2,4,8 etc.

 

[Tech9]

I remember Asus routers displaying a warning when channel 1 or 11 is selected manually, suggesting channel 2 or 10. I can double check this in few hours.

 

[avtella]

Please do, does seem interesting... Out of curiosity do you have a hodge podge of channels being used by people in your neighborhood, I feel like then that could be more understandable?

 

[Tech9]

At my house - I see available channels, I can use 1-6-11. At my downtown apartment - every channel is used, multiple networks on 3, 8, 9, etc.

 

[Tech9]

Please do, does seem interesting...

I don't see the message on RT-AC68U running latest available Asuswrt, but I remember seeing it before. For some reason it wasn't happy with channel 1 and was suggesting channel 2, etc. No idea what firmware, my routers have more flashing time than working time. This is what I get on Auto now:

If I leave it running for 24h or longer, I may see in logs switching to 3 or 8, but most of the time stays on 4. This is at my house with quiet Wi-Fi environment. My Ruckus APs will also use channel 4, if set on Auto.

The thing is, the graph we see in apps like Wifi Analyzer doesn't mean much, if the APs around are mostly idle. Multiple networks on one channel doesn't necessarily mean this channel is "taken". Wifi Analyzer is good to check your own AP signal strength in different locations around the house, as seen from a mobile device as client. It can't tell what channel has more available bandwidth, nor how many of the networks are actually transmitting data. Also, apps work on phones/tablets with weaker radios and printed antennas. APs see the environment better and further. Wi-Fi stats in Asuswrt-Merlin is much better source of information, for example. The usual "use some analyzer app" advice is a bad advice in most cases.

Some say, if you don't understand what are you doing - call a professional. Broadcom/Qualcomm are here to help.

 

[sfx2000]

Since months I am spending countless hours with investigating my network issues. With every firmware-update things get worse and I am totally fed up with their forced firmware updates. Netgears support is sadly a joke and couldn't provide any useful information or attempts to solve my issues. iOS-Devices are badly slow while browsing, wifi-devices are roaming without any sense, security-cameras are disconnecting, stereo hompods are acting up.

While this won't solve all of your issues with the Orbi's - what you are reporting is a key symptom of the satellites in poor locations.

With any mesh, if the nodes are too far apart, this is what happens...

As for the other things - it's a legit complaint, the Netgear WebUI is more for laypeople than someone with either a more profound interest or someone that networking is a full-time endeavor.

just my two centavos...

 

[John_88]

While this won't solve all of your issues with the Orbi's - what you are reporting is a key symptom of the satellites in poor locations.

With any mesh, if the nodes are too far apart, this is what happens...

As for the other things - it's a legit complaint, the Netgear WebUI is more for laypeople than someone with either a more profound interest or someone that networking is a full-time endeavor.

just my two centavos...

I wish this were my problem... The connection between the nodes is perfect, full troughput and a reliable connection. But the connection-management, which device connects to which node, is horrible. I have a security camera which connects to the farest node while the router is like 2m away... But since I restarted this camera everything works fine in the whole network.

 

[Tech9]

When you have perfect connection between the nodes and your clients connect to the further node very often, you perhaps have to much Wi-Fi in your place and the router/nodes/satellites are too close to each other. Your best solution is a single router in central location of the house.

 

[John_88]

When you have perfect connection between the nodes and your clients connect to the further node very often, you perhaps have to much Wi-Fi in your place and the router/nodes/satellites are too close to each other. Your best solution is a single router in central location of the house.

A single router is to weak, I just tested the RT-AX86U. To reduce the noise-level I reduced the signal-strength already to 50%. But orbis software does a really bad job with roaming clients. Furthermore there is a known bug with slow iOS-Devices which remains since months.
But as I said, after adjusting the orientation of the satellites and the router, I managed to get a stable network since the weekend. But updating netgears firmware is like gambling russian roulette. The last update bricked several thousand devices and now they are working an a "fast" solution since days... Imagine getting your device bricked with a forced update. For me it's still possible to return this stuff and I don't want to support actions like this. On the other hand for there is no alternative at the moment.

 

[Tech9]

A single router is to weak, I just tested the RT-AX86U.

You must have some Wi-Fi blocking materials used in walls. 1500sqf is usually not a problem for a single centrally located router.

But orbis software does a really bad job with roaming clients.

The client decides where to connect based on the signal strength and noise level. Some clients hold until the connection is still useable.

 

[Tech9]

Imagine getting your device bricked with a forced update.

Some RT-AX86U routers had this issue very recently. Some folks had to RMA the routers.

RT-AX86U bricked after update Version 3.0.0.4.386.48377

Need help guys. Tonight my asus app presented me an update Version 3.0.0.4.386.48377 for my main router AX86U and my Ethernet backhaul connected router AX82U. My other ethernet backhaul connected router AX86S did not needed to update So via the Asus app i started the update and forgot about it...

www.snbforums.com

 

[John_88]

You must have some Wi-Fi blocking materials used in walls. 1500sqf is usually not a problem for a single centrally located router.

This floor is just drywalls, but outside there is a lot of noise. I cannot explain this, but why is the orbi backhaul connection flawless from edge to edge?