Looking to DIY- Scrap These Parts or Buy New?

[loyukfai]

If your box is not going to run 24/7, power consumption may not be a significant factor after all, even one of your existing box may do well, depending on how much time it's on. Anyway, read along. Don't worry, I'll try to keep this short.

And a dedicated NAS is likely to draw less power than an Atom or Brazos box, but then again, the difference will most likely to be trivial on a personal basis.

The TS-419 is specificed to draw 13W at sleep mode (read: idle) and 31W during operation (including the drives). Although there are claims (sample #1, #2) that those figures maybe off (a bit), the deviation probably won't matter much to you.

Consider the cost of electricity in the Los Angeles area (USD0.2 per kWh), a 10W difference means something like a USD1.5 difference on the bill over a month, if it's run 24/7.

The system I built draws about 20W at idle, sans drive. BTW, that mainboard doesn't support WOL, and neither seems the Gigabyte you mentioned earlier, but you may like to re-confirm it.

To answer your other question, it's possible to put the drives into spindown under Windows and Linux. Although for some reasons mine keeps spinning up thus far (still figuring out why). But there are instances in which the drive of a NAS refuse to spin down as well. There's even a dedicated forum on QNAP about this. Many factors are at play and sometimes it's not easy to narrow down the cause.

However, if you're not going to run it 24/7, you can pretty much forget all about this. In fact, I would recommend you to make use of one of your older boxes instead. Although we usually make decisions based on direct personal cost, I urge myself and the others to consider the social cost of production in general...

Cheers.

Edit: For 50USD difference, I would probably pick-up the 4-bay over the 2-bay. BTW, this thread is looking like to belong to the NAS Buying Advice forum instead of DIY...

 

[loyukfai]

Wait, TS-419 at 349USD...??? Are you sure...??? If it were available at that price here, I would really give DIYing mine a hard thought. It cost >450USD here.

And I see it's currently listed for 490USD...?

Cheers.

 

[GregN]

Consider too, in your goal for an appliance, that the Synology and QNAP operating systems and Graphical User Interface for all functions is key. You may not want to grunge around in Linux command line day in and day out. Not that you can't learn all this, but to me (an ex-Unix user), I don't want the struggle, esp. for seldom used commands. Consider simply the command line hassles of SMB for windows workgroups, in Linux, versus the two vendors above that do it with simple graphical interfaces. Same for medial players, FTP, etc. So my choice has been to get a two-drive NAS with eSATA or USB3 for backup. Run two 2TB drives as separate volumes not RAID1. Rely on the automated backups to the external drive, plus a third backup of really important files to another medium outside the NAS.

FreeNAS, for me, is a no-go as its UI is too obtuse for it to become an appliance in the home.

I used to worry about drive failures - but in the last few years, I see no failures among 6 or so drives I use 24/7 at home. Maybe I'm lucky. That's the rationale for external drive backups - because the chance of a hosed up file system (no hardware failure), or a NAS circuit board failure "computer", seem more likely than a failure of a NAS drive as well as the external backup. I have a WIndows XP PC with RAID1 that's run for several years. That's my (debatable) rationale for not using RAID1.

Steve,

Respectfully, I'm sorta not sure why you hang out here in DIY. Your opinion, expressed repeatedly is that DIY can not achieve what QNap/Synology (Q/S) offer.

I'd argue that, that just isn't the case. I am running Openfiler, which I don't love, and functionally it is equal to, if not in a minor set of cases better than anything, offered by a commercial vendor.

Neither Q/S offer ZFS or native Virtual Machine support, a DIY solution can offer that plus offer support for more memory, better CPU, and different HBAs. DIY can also offer a price savings, as documented repeatedly here.

Beyond that, from personal experience, My SAN is to me an appliance, even if it doesn't fit your narrow definition. I set it up ( this includes initial configuration, that ugly CLI stuff you point to, part of the build), I look at it maybe once a month, and it just works, producing astounding performance. It has been running without a flaw since my last power outage several months ago. I would suspect to most folks that is the very definition of appliance.

So this attitude, that DIY cannot be as good as Consumer NASes, in my opinion is just wrong, and wrong headed - They can be as good as, if not better. I would agree that DIY solutions are not as polished, and that it can be hard to beat the retail price within a certain small margin of functionality. But folks here have repeatedly shown this not to be the case.

DIY is different, and requires a different attitude. Steering folks away from DIY as you encapsulate above, IMHO, is not what the DIY forum is for, but to assist people with their DIY projects.

 

[eyal8r]

Wow. This is all very insightful. I think I've got it narrowed down to QNAP, IF I were to go that route.

However- I'm still leaning towards DIY as it's cheaper and provides future use options for me.

With that said, and seeing as how this is a DIY Forum...
In terms of efficiency/heat/noise- is there any large advantages to buying a new PSU? What about Case Fans? I have a stack of about 8 PSU's laying around, and 6 Case Fans. Those are cheap items for sure- but will the newer PSU's and Case Fans produce less heat/noise/energy usage than ones from 6-8yrs ago? If so, is it significant enough to warrant the cost of purchasing new?

If not, and I am to re-use an old PSU... is it best to use the smallest one I have (probably 250w to 300w max) in order to save energy/heat/noise?

I've pretty much resolved to buying a new MOBO/CPU/RAM and HDDs. With that said, which do you recommend for me? I'm looking for one that has Wake on Lan, can spin down drives (I'll leave this unit on 24/7, but have scheduled backups run on a nightly basis). Again, I'm looking for something that is energy/heat/noise efficient. Most likely, I'll be running some form of Windows (probably Win Server 2011), headless.

I really appreciate all the input you guys have given thus far!

 

[eyal8r]

BTW- reading lots of other threads, why is it such a big deal to have an Intel Gigabit port on the mobo? What's wrong with the Realteks?
Thanks!

 

[stevech]

Steve,
Respectfully, I'm sorta not sure why you hang out here in DIY. Your opinion, expressed repeatedly is that DIY can not achieve what QNap/Synology (Q/S) offer.

Respectfully as well, I responded because the discussion was "make/buy" here (see #24) and I too go through that rationale. I think it's helpful for users to read about others' make/buy thought process. I have sought and not found any freeware that's comparable to QNAP or Synology's NAS operating system/GUI - I talk it up hoping someone points out such.

Where it is said "I'd argue that, that just isn't the case. I am running Openfiler, which I don't love, and functionally it is equal to, if not in a minor set of cases better than anything, offered by a commercial vendor"
demonstrates the issue- not loved, and a small subset of a commercial product. How is that better?

I will respect your single wishes and avoid such make/buy debating, but I must note that there's no other forum that users would expect to find such.

 

[travisco_nabisco]

BTW- reading lots of other threads, why is it such a big deal to have an Intel Gigabit port on the mobo? What's wrong with the Realteks?
Thanks!

The short answer is that Intel NICs do more work in the NIC controller itself, while the Realteks offload most of the processing work to the CPU.

If you want a long answer:
http://forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showthread.php?t=3516

 

[loyukfai]

The short answer is that Intel NICs do more work in the NIC controller itself, while the Realteks offload most of the processing work to the CPU.

If you want a long answer:
http://forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showthread.php?t=3516

I was expecting some real world benchmarks to prove the point...?

Cheers.

 

[loyukfai]

The PSU does make a difference, but whether it's significantly enough to justify a new one is another matter.

Sorry but I'm going the long route again...

Simply speaking, you couldn't judge purely by the rated max. power, but also by the power efficiency, particular at low load.

If you've heard of 80PLUS, then you probably have some ideas already.

Disclaimer: I'm not an electrical engineer.

The basics: If a 300W power supply has 80% efficiency at 50% load (150W), and it's being loaded exactly at 50%, then it's going to draw 150W / 80% = 187.5W at the wall, and that's what the electricity company will charge you.

The problem is, A) every PSU has different power efficiency characteristics, and B) the efficiency of the same PSU differs from different load. Take a look at the graphs of these 2 PSU of similar rated max. wattage (note the the red bar)...

PSU A

PSU B

Credits: X-bit labs

At 300W load, PSU A will draw about 300 / 85% = 353W at wall, and PSU B will draw about 300 / 76% = 395W. That's a difference of >40W because of a 10% difference in efficiency.

One of the other things that you should take note is that, when the load goes below a certain level, the efficienies begin to drop significantly.

Again, we have to put these into perspective. To continue from the above example, at 50W load, PSU A and B will draw approximately 63W (50 / 80%) and 77W (50 / 65%) at the wall respectively. The difference in efficiency is higher, at 15%, but the difference in actual power consumption becomes smaller, at 15W.

And we're talking about a load in the range of 20-30W at idle (drives not spinning), which is less than 10% load of a 300W PSU.

Here is a graph of an older PSU, BTW. (from this review)

In the end, I think it's going to be simpler and faster for you to find a respectable power meter and try them out one by one.

Regarding case fan, I would suggest you to do with the PSU fan, and add more fans strategeically if the box is running too hot. Modern mainboards and drives have temperature monitoring built-in.

If your existing PSU and fans don't perform up to expectations, then maybe you can start looking for new ones.

BTW, if it's run 24/7, wake on LAN doesn't seem to be a very important feature, isn't it?

Cheers.

 

[travisco_nabisco]

I was expecting some real world benchmarks to prove the point...?

Cheers.

Over at HARDOCP they seem to do a comparison on some of their motherboard reviews. It is hard to say for sure what actual CPU usage differences would be unless we know the exact NIC controller model for Realtek and for Intel.

From HARDOCP http://www.hardocp.com/article/2011/10/28/asus_p8p67_evo_rev_30_motherboard_review/3

Intel GigE controller

The large file transfer results with the Intel GigE NIC were some of the best performance numbers I've seen out of a board yet, with both file download and upload tests averaging a speedy 88 MB/s. Put this together with the less than 5% CPU utilization, and you have a winner.

The small file transfer tests performed just as well on the Intel GigE NIC, coming in at 79 MB/s for both upload and download speed averages. The one oddity was with the CPU utilization during download. It approached close to 10% utilization during download tests, while remaining mostly flat at under 5% during the upload tests.


Realtek GigE controller

The Realtek GigE NIC performed well within performance expectations during the large file tests, but did not even come close to matching the Intel NIC's performance numbers. Download average speed bested upload speed by 11 MB/s, coming in at 66 MB/s, while CPU utilization approached 20% during the file download tests. During the upload tests, CPU utilization remained mostly flat and below the 10% mark.

The Realtek NIC's small file transfer test results mimicked those of the large file tests, with download besting upload by 7 MB/s at a decent 57 MB/s average clip. The CPU utilization remained high during download approaching the 20% mark, while remaining below 10% during upload.

As a note, when looking for actual benchmarks I did find a different set of NIC cards where the Intel hit 8% CPU usage and the Realtek only 5%, however the Intel NIC was at 95MBps and the Realtek only around 65MBps, unfortunately I can't find that link again.

Hope this helps a bit.

 

[loyukfai]

One last thing, spinning down drives is more of a software thing than hardware thing, if you ask me.

For instance, if you don't install your OS on a separate drive (preferably a flash-based drive), then you'll have a hard time getting that drive to spin down.

BTW, I found out what was keeping my drives spinning - It was webmin.

Cheers.

 

[eyal8r]

So that now begs the question... which OS to use???

I don't know Unix, nor, do I want to learn it in this moment
I know windows, and am a fast learner... but a simpler GUI would be better for me as I don't want to spend time tinkering- I want to set it and forget it.

You're right- but when I say I'm going to run it 24/7, I meant I will leave it powered on 24/7- but won't be needing to use it unless it's doing a backup run at the time. So if the scheduled backups run only 1x per day, then it'll Wake on Lan 1x per day, run the job, then spin down and power save until the next job.

Also- I was wrong earlier- it wasn't the QNAP 419PII for $349. It was the TS-410 for $350 at newegg... that's just $50 more for a 2 bay over the TS-219P+... but also a slower processor, but DOES bump up to 2 RJ45's... the 219 has a max of 4TB, btw...

 

[loyukfai]

Going off-topic: While it seems that there's no similar software alternative to what off-the-shelf NAS offer at the moment, I'm not sure if FreeNAS is "too obtuse". Maybe my opinions will change significantly if I have hands-on experience with it, but judging by the screenshots, it seems to be just right for a NAS for storage needs. And as GregN mentioned, you don't have to face the GUI, or CLI, everyday (unless you have some strange addiction)......

Zentyal/eBOX maybe a good alternative too. Too bad it didn't seem to like me... It must have realized that I tried Ubuntu Server before it so... It's jealous...

Last but not least, *nix is not the only way to go, Windows Home Server is available for 53USD at Newegg at the moment.

One thing I've learnt over the years is that often there are different tools available for different needs. What seems a no brainer to me maybe a huge obstacle for someone else. Shoving your opinions onto the others usually doesn't work.

Cheers.

 

[loyukfai]

Wake on LAN is used for waking up a PC from "off state" - Power it on remotely. You don't need that if your NAS is going to run 24/7.

Cheers.

Edit: Setup a virtual machine and give FreeNAS a try, if you don't like it, then pick-up WHS. My 2 cents.

Check this out... http://forums.storagereview.com/index.php/topic/28375-torn-between-windows-home-server-and-a-nas/

And this... http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/how_build_kickass_windows_home_server (don't you feel it's so sexy reading a tutorial teaching you how to plug-in SATA cables???)

 

[GregN]

Respectfully as well, I responded because the discussion was "make/buy" here (see #24) and I too go through that rationale. I think it's helpful for users to read about others' make/buy thought process. I have sought and not found any freeware that's comparable to QNAP or Synology's NAS operating system/GUI - I talk it up hoping someone points out such.

Where it is said "I'd argue that, that just isn't the case. I am running Openfiler, which I don't love, and functionally it is equal to, if not in a minor set of cases better than anything, offered by a commercial vendor"
demonstrates the issue- not loved, and a small subset of a commercial product. How is that better?

I will respect your single wishes and avoid such make/buy debating, but I must note that there's no other forum that users would expect to find such.

Steve,

I was commenting on your pronounced bias.

I do not love Openfiler because it has overt bugs, and some glaring holes. But once it was configured, part of the DIY process, it has worked without issue, and is indistinguishable from a commercial product that would be, in your parlance, an appliance. In the Turing complete sense.

Openfiler, as I have stated in other threads is a good choice under the narrow requirement of using fibre channel, and supporting a SAN architecture. In all other cases I would recommend something else.

Consumer grade Synology/QNap do not support what DIY does support (for free):

ZFS, and Raid-Z
Fibre Channel HBAs
Native Virtualization
The Range of CPUs
The Range of Memory Capacities
The Range of Storage Capacity
An attractive Price to Performance curve
An much wider upgrade path
The diverse selection of software options: Databases, Web Servers, BT Clients, and Media Servers

Any one of those are compelling reasons for going DIY, and only a small subset of those have to do with the OS/GUI.

Reasons for not going DIY, I think is a much shorter list (but not less compelling to folks).

It takes a technical skill set to build a NAS.
The GUI is not as slick.
You get a manufacturer's warranty.
It requires a significant amount of time and often patience to do a build.


I have a couple friends who have built airplanes in their garages, they would argue that their planes are superior to any commercial plane you could get dollar for dollar. But it takes skills that I don't possess, and time I don't have, or even the tools needed to do such a thing.

This is the case with DIY NAS projects, most folks don't have the time, skills, or interest in doing so - they want something they plug-in, poke at, and it just works. The aesthetic here in DIY is different.

Would it not frustrate you, if over in the Synology NAS forum section, every time someone asked a purchasing question, I posted, "Why buy? I think DIY is so much more superior...."?

 

[eyal8r]

Gotcha. I agree. DIY has much more capabilities and longer term upgradable options. It's also cheaper and offers much more capacity for the price.

I'm more than capable of actually building the PC and installing the components- have built MANY systems in the past.

My fear is the OS behind it. When reading up on FreeNas, I've seen many state that it requires a lot of constant tinkering. The 'gui' is not very good, and the learning curve is pretty steep for non-unix guys. Same has been said for most other OS' I've read about. This is the reason why I keep considering pre-built vs DIY.

No doubt I can build a DIY for cheaper, and very little time investment. It's setting up the OS, software, settings, etc- that worries me. Which is exactly why I'm looking at simple solutions.

Can someone weigh in on some of the pros/cons of the various OS Software out there for a DIY Machine, and touch on the learning curve associated with each? That would help me tremendously. (ie- freenas, windows server 2011, ubuntu, etc) Keep in mind, I'm not looking for RAID solutions right now- just backup...

 

[loyukfai]

Over at HARDOCP they seem to do a comparison on some of their motherboard reviews. It is hard to say for sure what actual CPU usage differences would be unless we know the exact NIC controller model for Realtek and for Intel.

From HARDOCP http://www.hardocp.com/article/2011/10/28/asus_p8p67_evo_rev_30_motherboard_review/3


As a note, when looking for actual benchmarks I did find a different set of NIC cards where the Intel hit 8% CPU usage and the Realtek only 5%, however the Intel NIC was at 95MBps and the Realtek only around 65MBps, unfortunately I can't find that link again.

Hope this helps a bit.

Thanks.

I had little doubt that Intel's NICs are superior to that of Realtek, but was, and am still, not sure if it's a worthwhile investment.

It depends, probably.

Cheers.

 

[loyukfai]

Can someone weigh in on some of the pros/cons of the various OS Software out there for a DIY Machine, and touch on the learning curve associated with each? That would help me tremendously. (ie- freenas, windows server 2011, ubuntu, etc) Keep in mind, I'm not looking for RAID solutions right now- just backup...

With all the time we spent shouting back and forth, could you not have setup a virtual environment and try it out???

http://samkear.com/how-to-guides/installing-freenas-virtualbox

Just go do it already!!!

Edit: Just finished creating a VM and tried out the FreeNAS interface for/in 30-min. Granted it's not as feature-rich as those GUI from the big name OTS NAS, but it's not as daunting as I had thought - It's mostly just points and clicks.

 

[loyukfai]

Went through this thread during my documentation purpose, would like to drop a few more comments...

You can't daisy-chain SATA drives.

There are, SATA multipliers, and 4-port SATA controllers are available for about 40USD at Newegg.

But they don't seem to be very cost effective unless one really wants to keep the existing setup.

Many people do use Windows machines for file sharing and backup. But Windows boxes are bigger, use more power and can be noisier than NAS appliances.

That's based on the assumption that "Windows machines" mean full-size desktops, and then some. Today's ITX boxes are fairly small, Atom and Brazos are power efficient (some pre-built NAS also use them), and not necessarily noisier.

@eyal8r: Just wondering, is there any reason you're not looking at ReadyNAS?

BTW, with regard to noise and cooling, the drives may present a larger challenge than an Atom/Zacate CPU/mainboard. And if you are able to put it at a corner or obscure place, these issues may not be very significant.

Cheers.

 

[eyal8r]

Only reason I didn't look at ReadyNAS is because everyone seems to always zero in on Synology and QNAP. Not just in these forums, but most my extensive research on this stuff the past few weeks... what's your thoughts on it?

Also- with regards to Windows Server 2011... I see that they're dropping out Drive Extender. Many also say it's a dead/dying OS. Any thoughts on that?

Also- I started watching youtube videos on freenas setup/install. It doesn't APPEAR to be too difficult from what I'm seeing. How is it once it's up and running? Many issues and maintenance? Or is it more of an appliance (which is what I'm looking for)

Thank you!