Looking to update setup of Asus RT-AC3200 with 3x RTN66-U as AP's

[Sir Dan Baker]

Hey guys, I hope you are all enjoying your weekend

I'm looking to upgrade my current setup of an Asus RT-AC3200, configured as modem/router and connected to the optical network terminal of my fibre connection.

For speed I only use 5G connections; the 3200 covers the living room. I got a RTN66U for the hall and stairway. The second 66 is used outside in the shed to cover the garden. The third 66 is used for the bedroom (very low poweroutput setting and the radio turns off during the night).

The quality and speed difference between the 3200 itself and the ap's is clearly noticeable, I'm looking to pull this system into 2019.

Now I'm looking for a system which can replace the 66u's and possibly the 3200's own wifi. Preferrably a system which can be PoE powered and with seamless transfers from one AP to another. The Asus is to be remaining as 'captain on the ship'. As a last piece of information, my wan connection is capable of approximately 700mbps up and down, officially it's listed as a 500/500 connection but someone forgot to cap it I guess lol.
Overall I'm looking for fast access-times and fairly quick hop's between ap's, especially on our phones and tablets.

Any thoughts? Much appreciated

 

[Trip]

For your wifi system, you're going to need a business-class product, as most whole-house gear doesn't support PoE. From there, you're also going to want a managed PoE switch to serve as your AP power source and wired distribution point.

For your gateway, I suppose you could leave the AC3200 in-play (with wifi software-disabled and antennas removed). IMHO, though, if you're putting in business-class wifi and switching, I'd put in an equally-capable gateway right from the start, and scrap all the Asus stuff in one go. Not only will you have matching capability, supported out of out-of-the-box, but your network will run more like an appliance and less like a toy.

Looking at products, I would first check out Ubiquiti UniFi, arguably the best combo of ease-of-management and low cost. They key to it all is their free "single pane of glass" software controller, which lets you manage APs, switches and even gateways from a single dashboard. They also have a phone app that makes setup and basic management just about as easy as most any whole-house consumer product. The more UniFi gear you run at each network layer, the more value you'll get. I would suggest APs and switches as a base-minimum. You may want to start with the Dream Machine, which is a gateway, 4-port switch, wireless AP and UniFi controller all-in-one. The UDM doesn't have PoE, though, so you'd need a UniFi PoE switch, like a US-8-60W (or higher-port/PoE model if needed). For APs, the UDM's built in AP (essentially a NanoHD) would replace the AC3200; for N66U replacements, I'd look at AC-LITE's, or for a bit higher-density and/or desktop form-factor, the FlexHD. You can mix and match any form factor all under the same controller.

You could, of course, run separate gear at each layer, if you didn't care as much about integration as you did about cost and/or standalone performance. For example, TP-Link Omada for wifi, plus a Ubiquiti EdgeRouter-4 and a Cisco SG or HPE switch. But it will be a bit a lot more work to setup each discrete component, and propagate config changes whenever you need to.

There are also other unified-type products (EnGenius Neutron, Zyxel Nebula, etc.) but none offer the same level of control and ease-of-management as UniFi, IMHO. There's also Cisco RV (gateways, switches and APs); reliable hardware with longer-than-average support and they are somewhat "integrated", but not via a separate, unified control plane, and hardware cost is usually 50 to 100% more.

Lastly, you have SMB-friendly enterprise gear, like Aruba Instant/Instant-On or Ruckus Unleashed, but while it's usually tops for reliability and capability, still requires separate routing/switching solutions. Again, more stuff to management separately.

So that's basically the landscape of what you're looking at. Hope it helps outline the possibilities for you.

 

[Val D.]

Any thoughts?

@Trip is giving you excellent solutions, as always (I was waiting for his input, actually), but I believe your cost saving option is leaving the RT-AC3200 router in place (as you want) and replacing the RT-N66U routers with APs like TP-Link EAP225 AC1350 or TP-Link EAP245 AC1750. Won’t be as good as what @Trip is talking about, but you can do it for about $250 and reuse the router you already have.

 

[Trip]

@Trip is giving you excellent solutions, as always (I was waiting for his input, actually), but I believe your cost saving option is leaving the RT-AC3200 router in place (as you want) and replacing the RT-N66U routers with APs like TP-Link EAP225 AC1350 or TP-Link EAP245 AC1750. Won’t be as good as what @Trip is talking about, but you can do it for about $250 and reuse the router you already have.

Indeed, that would be the cost-savings play, for sure. Won't have the slickness/control of PoE, but other than that, you'd at least have seamless wireless, although I wonder about any left-over airspace contamination from the AC3200, even with wifi software-disabled and antennas pulled off... @Val D. , I'd presume you can truly "hard" shut off wifi on these all-in-ones? (It's been a while since I've tried doing that on any of them).

 

[Val D.]

I wonder about any left-over airspace contamination from the AC3200

I don’t think this is a problem, WiFi off cuts all radio emissions. This is how my RT-AC86U lives now on stand-by. I had enough of testing firmwares and switched to x86 hardware. No TrendMicro, no Runner, no Flow Cache. I’m running 2 x EAP245 at the moment and I like the results. It’s a work-in-progress though.

 

[Trip]

Interesting, thanks for confirming. And also interesting to see you've made the jump to x86... on Untangle no less! And good to hear the EAP's are behaving as well.

 

[Val D.]

And also interesting to see you've made the jump to x86...

Oh, I had the intention and the hardware needed for a long time, just changed some things yesterday and did the basic setup. I know Untangle, but it still needs time to fully untangle it. Media PC was there, the Router and the APs were activated yesterday. Works pretty smooth, actually. And the UI is beautiful. If you notice your lights flickering, don’t worry, it’s me booting the system.

 

[Trip]

If you notice your lights flickering, don’t worry, it’s me booting the system.

Haha. Love it.

 

[Sir Dan Baker]

Wow, thanks @Trip, that is an extensive and well explained answer.
I must say that I did not have Unifi high up on my list, I don't know why but somehow I didn't ' feel' it. I will have a serious look into this brand. I would like to leave the ac3200 as modem/router in place, the UDM seems pretty expensive. Apart from being an AP by itself, is the UDM a better router than the Asus? I tried googling a comparison between the 3200 and an UDM but I could not find it.

I don't mind taking down the wifi of the Asus, I could place an extra AP if needed.

 

[Trip]

You're welcome!

So, remote PoE was the main decision driver in your original post. If you can forgo that, then you could certainly choose a whole-house consumer product for wifi (UniFi certainly not necessary at that point). You'd still want the product to support wired backhaul, though (to take advantage of your ethernet already in place). If you wanted to keep the AC3200 as your router, you'd also want the whole-house system to offer an "AP" or "bridge" mode (and I would still disable wifi on the AC3200, using it only as a "wired" router/switch).

For a whole-house kit, a TP-Link Deco M4 3-pack plus a 1-pack would be about $210 total, whereas four Omada EAP225v3's and an OC200 controller would be about $360. Deco wouldn't be as configurable, nor as flexible in how it could be deployed, but you're paying for that "premium" with Omada, whereas you're just keeping things more or less as simple as possible with Deco; that may be enough for you, and certainly no shame if that's the case.

Hope that helps a bit more.

 

[Sir Dan Baker]

Maybe I was not clear in my first post, apart from the PoE (which is not specifically necessary come to think of it, with all three N66’s in place I got power at those locations anyway.
The main things I’m looking for are these:
1. Maximum wireless speed throughout the system no matter where I am.
2. Seamless roaming (is that the correct term?)
3. The same low latency everywhere
4. Reliability

I’m not looking for the cheapest solution, I want it done right for at least the next three to five years if possible

at the new work office where I’ll be moving within a couple weeks we will be using Zyxell NAP102’s, they seem to do a good job while I’ve been working there getting things ready to move, have you got any thoughts about that system?

thx again for your thoughts

 

[Val D.]

1. Maximum wireless speed throughout the system no matter where I am.
2. Seamless roaming (is that the correct term?)

How fast and how seamless it is going to be also depends on the clients you plan to use on this network.

 

[Sir Dan Baker]

How fast and how seamless it is going to be also depends on the clients you plan to use on this network.

My wife’s and my phone would be the most important ones, respectively iPhone X and iPhone Xs Max

 

[Val D.]

My wife’s and my phone would be the most important ones, respectively iPhone X and iPhone Xs Max

OK, it may not be what you want to hear, but this is what I think:

If two phones are the most important clients on this network, I personally won't invest a single dollar in network upgrades. All the money spent in upgrades will be a total waste. You'll see no significant difference on the phone's tiny screen even if you spend $5000 in upgrades. No phone needs >100Mbps connection simply because it has nothing to do with faster connections. Your existing routers already provide about 150Mbps throughput. Just upgrade the routers to AC access points and call it a day. Do you think your wife will be extremely excited about web pages and videos loading 1.5s faster on her iPhone? She may not even notice. Instead of spending money on UniFi system designed for 250+ WiFi users, book a week vacation to Riviera Maya, for example. This is something she'll notice.

 

[ACwifiguy]

I’d upgrade your RTN66U access points. They are only able to use wireless N. AX devices are still immature - I’d stick with a consumer AC router. AC routers offer great speed especially since your area is blanketed with access points. Any of the above mentioned wireless AC devices will be able to handle your 500/500 WAN connection.

Assuming your current access points are already hardwired the options are:

1) “mesh option”: if you are set on the hand off technologies I’d get a AC mesh system that supports a wired backbone. iPhones support the main handover technologies. Its easier to buy it ready to go.

2) “bang for buck option”: The ASUS RT-AC66 b1 (or something similar) offers good bang for buck to replace your current APs: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N08LPPP/?tag=snbforums-20

3) “max speed option” - upgrade to 4x4 antenna AC consumer routers (I have three netgear r7800’s that I got on sale for $120 each, love them) or commercial grade 4x4 access points

 

[Sir Dan Baker]

OK, it may not be what you want to hear, but this is what I think:

If two phones are the most important clients on this network, I personally won't invest a single dollar in network upgrades. All the money spent in upgrades will be a total waste. You'll see no significant difference on the phone's tiny screen even if you spend $5000 in upgrades. No phone needs >100Mbps connection simply because it has nothing to do with faster connections. Your existing routers already provide about 150Mbps throughput. Just upgrade the routers to AC access points and call it a day. Do you think your wife will be extremely excited about web pages and videos loading 1.5s faster on her iPhone? She may not even notice. Instead of spending money on UniFi system designed for 250+ WiFi users, book a week vacation to Riviera Maya, for example. This is something she'll notice.

LOL, I like the tone of your post . I don't have in mind what I would like to hear, I'm just looking for advice. I do however, disagree with you on the fact that a change for the better will go unnoticed by the wife (or myself for that matter, I do a lot of skyping/zooming/ videocalling via whatsapp at home).
Because the system is not working together the phones hang on to the ap's too long and do not hop fast enough, but it will stay on the wifi without being able to use it which causes delays, much longer than 1.5 seconds. Actually these phones can be lightning fast when the wifi is up for it and we do value speed. I do know it's not about throughput for a phone but about fast access/low latency and that is what I'm looking for.
The AC3200 is not capable of Asus aiMesh, so I have to work around this fact.
The Riviera del Maya is a nice suggestion, but a bit far out considering I'm in the Netherlands lol. Anyways, we just spent a lovely weekend in Paris a couple of weeks ago, no prb on that front ;-).
So the 4 points I mentioned earlier still stand I guess with a side note that two iPhones are the main users.. Any thoughts on the Zyxel NAP102's? They seem affordable enough.

 

[coxhaus]

If you are looking for a fast reliable system which is expandable to build it your way then I recommend Cisco small business gear. The Cisco small business gear is fairly easy to setup. I recommend 2 or 3 Cisco WAP581 wireless APs.
Here is a thread on how to setup the WAP581 Aps on a Cisco small business L3 switch.
https://www.snbforums.com/threads/home-network-design-help-with-l3-switch.59818/

This setups up a basic LAN with a guest network. You could add 1 more VLAN for a IoT network.

This system will last many years.

 

[Trip]

1. Maximum wireless speed throughout the system no matter where I am.
2. Seamless roaming (is that the correct term?)
3. The same low latency everywhere
4. Reliability

By upgrading, you could get definitely improve on support for seamless roaming, which your current setup does not, although Apple devices are known for clinging onto APs for too long regardless (called "sticky clients"), so you'd likely need a system with more advanced support for roam optimization to really even have a chance at making them roam the way you'd like. As far as speed goes, presuming the handheld wifi clients of choice are at least 2x2 MIMO, you could theoretically get speeds up into the 200-300Mb/s real-life range. As to whether that's much above what you're able to get now, you'd have to confirm. Regarding reliability, if your Asus gear has been mostly rock-solid, there's very little improvement to make there. If you do have some inexplicable latency in places, that could be the fault of your router and/or APs, but may also be a cabling/interconnect issue. Tough to say definitively without troubleshooting and testing isolated cable runs, routers and/or wired and wireless devices.

So overall, the right new gear could yield moderate improvements. Would the results blow you away in comparison? Probably not. But presuming your cabling infrastructure is solid, then the right discrete components would also make your network more collectively reliable, slightly lower-latency, slightly higher bandwidth and modular (aka. more easily upgradeable) for the future. It sounds as though something like that may be worth it to you and the wife, and no, you don't have to go spending thousands, or otherwise just go on a vacation (lol @Val D., funny post nonetheless).

I’m not looking for the cheapest solution, I want it done right for at least the next three to five years if possible

Definitely doable, and it doesn't have to break the bank, nor be infinitely complex. Let's say you left the AC3200 in place (with wifi off and antennas removed). I'd flash it with the latest supported Merlin build, then reconfigure your network from scratch, just to be sure that part is solid. From there, I'd do a single TP-Link EAP245v3 (to replace the AC3200's radio) and three EAP225v3's (replacing the N66U's), plus an OC200 controller. <$400 worth of hardware spend. You'd power each AP locally using the passive gigabit PoE injector that comes included with each, then properly setup Omada (enabling 802.11k/r) with a single SSID and default VLAN, and you're done. You now have a base-minimum viable network that hits on all of your checklist points via a "good-enough" product, and without any real rocket-science required for setup or configuration. All for $400 or so. Not $5000.

Beyond that, for a similar price point, we could slice and dice the choices all day. You could try multiple Asus AiMesh routers, a whole-house system, or just stay status-quo. Omada would at least be simple-ish, mostly business-grade and would (should) actually work. YMMV.

 

[Val D.]

I'm just looking for advice.

OK, I also think part of your current issues is probably related with over-saturation of the WiFi spectrum. Do you really need 4 x APs? I worked recently on a network in a 7000sqf house and the whole place (basement, first floor, second floor) was covered by 4 x APs. You have one in your living room, one on the hall/stairway, one in your bedroom, one outside... are they really needed? You don't need full bars WiFi signal to every corner of your house, nor winning the WiFi war with your neighbors. Without knowing details of your place (physical layout, surface area, build materials, possible signal obstructions, channels availability, how busy the channels are, etc.) everything written above in this thread is just shooting in the dark. You may spend time and money on upgrades and end up in no different than current situation.

I'm in the Netherlands lol

Oh, I'm sorry for that... For me the best part of The Kingdom of the Netherlands is called Curaçao.

 

[Sir Dan Baker]

OK, I also think part of your current issues is probably related with over-saturation of the WiFi spectrum. Do you really need 4 x APs? I worked recently on a network in a 7000sqf house and the whole place (basement, first floor, second floor) was covered by 4 x APs. You have one in your living room, one on the hall/stairway, one in your bedroom, one outside... are they really needed? You don't need full bars WiFi signal to every corner of your house, nor winning the WiFi war with your neighbors. Without knowing details of your place (physical layout, surface area, build materials, possible signal obstructions, channels availability, how busy the channels are, etc.) everything written above in this thread is just shooting in the dark. You may spend time and money on upgrades and end up in no different than current situation.



Oh, I'm sorry for that... For me the best part of The Kingdom of the Netherlands is called Curaçao.

You're partially right here, the 2.4 is very very very full, I'm not at home right now but I'll see to send a graph of the amount of wifi signals found. But, there is some light at the end of the tunnel, because the whole place is reinforced concrete, the 5G is nicely isolated, I only see a very low signal from some cable box of the neighbours. I'm gonna do some research into the excellent suggestion of @Trip. I'll keep you guys updated on any developments.

No problem regarding the holiday remark, it had me laughing

Thanks for all the help! Enjoy your day