MoCA and a Rat's Nest of Coax

[el_muerte28]

I was directed to this forum by someone after they told me about MoCA.

My parents moved to a large house. They have a Netgear Nighthawk X6 that covered there previous home but wasn't sufficient here. They picked up some EEROs for a mesh network. I want to utilize the Nighthawk as an AP for extended coverage, particularly near the living room where there is high traffic (TV, phones, computers, wifi cams, etc.), but it needs to be connected via ethernet.

Their home was built in the 80s. Prior owners had a security system that included, among other things, cameras. It's an old security system that isn't worth saving. However, we found a security recording system that had a large number of coax cables going into it, which leads me to believe the cameras are wired via coax.

This recording "box" was found on the first floor in a cabinet with a ton of wires coming up through the floor. These are the only coax cables on the first level on the house, and they are terminated with non-traditional ends.

There are 4-5 coax cables/ports on the second floor of the house. One of the ports is what feeds the modem on the second floor. It's not situated in the most optimal location of the house. We wanted to move the modem to another location on the second floor (as the router has to be connected via an Ethernet cable).

We looked in the attic (where there are another ~20 coax cables) to see if we could trace the cables feeding the modem, but we were unsuccessful.

(It was at this point my parents ordered 3 EEROs).

After setting up them up, I wanted to see if I could use the Netgear in AP mode, so started doing some research and someone told me about MoCAs and directed me here.

Ideally, we run new ethernet cable, but that is not an option.

Next best thing seems to be MoCA.

I know this is a broad question, but where do I get started?

 

[drinkingbird]

I was directed to this forum by someone after they told me about MoCA.

My parents moved to a large house. They have a Netgear Nighthawk X6 that covered there previous home but wasn't sufficient here. They picked up some EEROs for a mesh network. I want to utilize the Nighthawk as an AP for extended coverage, particularly near the living room where there is high traffic (TV, phones, computers, wifi cams, etc.), but it needs to be connected via ethernet.

Their home was built in the 80s. Prior owners had a security system that included, among other things, cameras. It's an old security system that isn't worth saving. However, we found a security recording system that had a large number of coax cables going into it, which leads me to believe the cameras are wired via coax.

This recording "box" was found on the first floor in a cabinet with a ton of wires coming up through the floor. These are the only coax cables on the first level on the house, and they are terminated with non-traditional ends.

There are 4-5 coax cables/ports on the second floor of the house. One of the ports is what feeds the modem on the second floor. It's not situated in the most optimal location of the house. We wanted to move the modem to another location on the second floor (as the router has to be connected via an Ethernet cable).

We looked in the attic (where there are another ~20 coax cables) to see if we could trace the cables feeding the modem, but we were unsuccessful.

(It was at this point my parents ordered 3 EEROs).

After setting up them up, I wanted to see if I could use the Netgear in AP mode, so started doing some research and someone told me about MoCAs and directed me here.

Ideally, we run new ethernet cable, but that is not an option.

Next best thing seems to be MoCA.

I know this is a broad question, but where do I get started?

The ends on the camera runs are likely BNC ("push and twist lock") right?

If so those are easy to differentiate and track down, each one will be a home run to a camera, there are no splitters or anything else in the path (unless it is a very non-standard system).

Assuming they are decent (ideally RG6, should say so right on the cable, hopefully Quad shield but double shield probably ok). RG58 will work but may not get up to full MOCA 2.0 or 2.5 speeds.

You can either get BNC female to F male (screw on style, like cable TV) adapters, or cut and re-terminate the ends. If you don't have the tools to do that, better to just get the adapters.

You'll need to track down the other end of each wire, disconnect it from the camera, and pull it back to somewhere that it is useful.

Alternatively you can totally ignore the BNC camera stuff and focus on regular coax that has screw-on connectors which will be feeding your modem and TV jacks. You'll start at the entrance to the building and trace it from there, finding splitters, etc as you go, and labeling which ones go to what, one will go to modem, some to set to boxes, some may not be used and just terminate in various rooms with nothing connected. Often there will be multiple splitters in the path and it is important to note where each one is as you map it out on paper.

You can pick up something like the Klein VDV Scout series from Home depot which makes it easy to trace multiple runs. Or just unplug/plug one thing at a time from splitters you find and label what they are for.

Once you've found what each one does and where it goes, then you can start getting an idea of your options for MOCA. The camera runs may be ideal (since they are dedicated runs, no splitters, and nothing else on them) if you can get them into places where you need them, but most likely that would require pulling cables back from outside of the house etc so may not be feasible.

 

[OzarkEdge]

Next best thing seems to be MoCA.

I know this is a broad question, but where do I get started?

Given you are admin for the parents, I would prefer to keep it simple... all eero nodes.

I recently deployed MoCA. Ideally, isolate a healthy coax run from your rats nest of coax and connect a MoCA 2.4 adapter to each end to connect Ethernet. Remove any non-MoCA splitters in this coax segment. Do not connect this MoCA coax to ISP/neighborhood coax without installing an intervening MoCA filter to block your MoCA signaling from broadcasting to the WAN.

The latest MoCA 2.5 adapters with 2.5GbE ports do not seem to include the integrated MoCA splitter, so if you go for MoCA with 2.5GbE ports, plan to add external MoCA splitters if you need to extend the MoCA network.

OE

 

[degrub]

if it is RG-58, it is iffy to work unless the run is short, the cable is in good condition, and point to point. It has a lower impedence (50 ohm versus 75) and higher loss per ft of cable compared to RG-59 or 6.

from wiki -
"Its signal attenuation depends on the frequency, e.g. from 10.8 dB per 100 m (3.3 dB per 100 feet) at 50 MHz to 70.5 dB per 100 m (21.5 dB per 100 feet) at 1 GHz"

RG-59 is about 8 db/100 ft at 1 GHz.

The higher the operating frequency the higher the loss.

MOCA operates between 1.1Ghz and 1.6 Ghz.

MOCA modems have about 40 db of power budget to work with. So maybe,

Hopefully there are no splitters in the walls as you will have to find them and replace

 

[GHammer]

To find a single coax run, do it the cheap way.
Multimeter, aluminum foil.
Make a ball of foil. Insert it into the end of the run you need to ID. Make sure it touches the inside wire.
Go to the rats nest and put the multimeter in continuity mode. Touch one probe to the wire and one to the screw on housing.
The one that has tone/indicator is the one.
If you have no continuity mode, just ohms will work, look for 0 ohms.

 

[Clark Griswald]

Klein Tools VDV501-851
Don't go Cousin Eddie on the network!
Inexpensive tool to do the work properly

 

[drinkingbird]

Klein Tools VDV501-851
Don't go Cousin Eddie on the network!
Inexpensive tool to do the work properly

I use the old Scout 2 version and it makes it very easy. Of course to use it on the BNC terminated ones you'll need adapters or re-terminate them, but they'll need those anyway if they want to use those runs.

 

[Clark Griswald]

VDV Scout Pro 2
Bought this "Like New" 5-years ago, paid for itself by not needing to call electrician to test/map network.

 

[krkaufman]

They have a Netgear Nighthawk X6 that covered there previous home but wasn't sufficient here. ... There are 4-5 coax cables/ports on the second floor of the house. One of the ports is what feeds the modem on the second floor. It's not situated in the most optimal location of the house.

Was immediately wondering if the X6 "wasn't sufficient" or if it simply wasn't optimally located. Centered and on the 2nd floor would seem to be optimal for a single AP setup.

 

[krkaufman]

VDV Scout Pro 2
Bought this "Like New" 5-years ago, paid for itself by not needing to call electrician to test/map network.

Tempting price on the Starter Kit, at just $89.

 

[krkaufman]

To find a single coax run, do it the cheap way.
Multimeter, aluminum foil.
Make a ball of foil. Insert it into the end of the run you need to ID. Make sure it touches the inside wire.
Go to the rats nest and put the multimeter in continuity mode. Touch one probe to the wire and one to the screw on housing.
The one that has tone/indicator is the one.
If you have no continuity mode, just ohms will work, look for 0 ohms.

Slightly more expensive line tracer option: tone tracer + RJ45 F-connector adapter

 

[sfx2000]

VDV Scout Pro 2
Bought this "Like New" 5-years ago, paid for itself by not needing to call electrician to test/map network.

And a toner - checking which cable is which...

Just saying - for discovery for on prem wiring...

 

[sfx2000]

At the end of the day - might be something to consider...

Find a pro that focused on low-voltage wiring in the house - they can save you a lot of time and effort...

there's a lot of CATV installers that freelance - check craigslist...

 

[drinkingbird]

And a toner - checking which cable is which...



Just saying - for discovery for on prem wiring...

The Scout 2 (and I'm assuming 3) has a built in tone generator so you just need to pick up a cheap probe. I do have a separate tone/probe set as it has bare wire connections/alligator clamps too but for this purpose the Scouts are very handy for tracing out coax, ethernet, and phone. I just have the basic set with the 7 or 8 ID plugs of each type (clearance at Home Depot for like $10 a few years ago) but it is plenty, no need to trace out more than that at one time.

 

[el_muerte28]

Apologies all for the delayed response. And thank y'all TREMENDOUSLY for all of the help.

The last week has been a bit crazy between travel, illness, and some other stuff going on at work.

I am several states away from my parents but visit every now and again, so I am going to have to walk my father through some of this on his own. If need be, I will be back to their house in a few months when he and I can tackle it together.

We actually used the tinfoil ball and multimeter trick to find one wire we were looking for, but that was the extent of our success.

Regarding the BNC connectors:
1 - I have a tool (two, actually) to terminate with new ends
2 - there was one splitter next to the recording box found downstairs, so possibly a non standard system

This will be a slow going process, due to my distance, but I will be sure to update as we make progress.