MoCa - Help With Network Please - Newbie

[ranger_rick]

does this work?? (see attached image). my only issue would be getting into the cable companies enclosure ion the outside of the house and convincing my wife that its legal lol

 

[Datalink]

Yes, that would work. The question of the day is what are you current signal levels at? If you post your modem stats, that would give you an idea of where they are at the moment. Your modem is the only device on the one side of the splitter, correct?

To access the external cable box you're going to need a hex can wrench as shown here:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Hex+Can+Wrench&ref=nb_sb_noss_2

What you should see inside the cable box is a cable ground block and splitter. Its possible that the cable ground block is on the cable that runs from the local tap, which is either on a nearby utility pole, or inside a ground level pedestal which shouldn't be too far from your home. The ground block might be mounted to the outside wall near the cable box. From there you would see a short RG-6 cable run to the cable box. If the cable ground block is in the box, you would want to ensure that the ground block does have a ground wire attached to it, and that the other end is connected to an electrical component that provides a ground path.

The cable ground block would probably look like the second block shown on this page:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=cable+gr...efix=cable+ground,aps,170&ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_12

 

[ranger_rick]

i will try to get baseline speed numbers today.

as noted my external cable enclosure has one cox coming in off the pole (down the house and into the box) and two coax lines coming out plus the ground which attached directly to electric meter box.

i tried to get pictures of external cable box and its "lock fastener". will the can wrench mentioned in the previous post work on my lock fastener?? most of the lock fasteners i see online don't have that added piece extending from the box

 

[ranger_rick]

I ran four speed tests. laptop connected to modem

 

[krkaufman]

does this work?? (see attached image). my only issue would be getting into the cable companies enclosure ion the outside of the house and convincing my wife that its legal lol

View attachment 20537

I wouldn't think so, unless you *do* have success using a passive MoCA-compatible splitter in place of the powered amplifier, as I'm not aware of any amplifiers that pass MoCA signals ...without extreme loss... between the amplifier input and output ports.

With a 3-way MoCA-compatible splitter in place of that powered amplifier, your diagram would be a normal MoCA setup.

If the AMP is still used it might need to be replaced with an AMP that is engineered to pass signals in both directions if your MOCA signals need to pass through it.

Does such an amplifier exist? All "designed for MoCA" amps that I've seen are designed as drop amps, and have been designed to minimize loss at MoCA frequencies between the amplified output ports, and with a few "MoCA bypass" amplifiers also accommodating MoCA communication between the amplified output ports and the passive output port. Further, most "designed for MoCA" amps include a built-in MoCA filter, making such an amplifier even less likely to allow MoCA signals to pass between the input port and its outputs. (I expect such a sub-optimal setup would have better luck using a non-MoCA amp, since such an amp wouldn't include a built-in MoCA filter.)

The workarounds are:
* use a passive splitter (fingers crossed, as this is simplest);
* move the amp to the drop location (the outside box), possibly upgrading to a "designed for MoCA" amp; or
* use an additional pair of MoCA adapters to bypass the network around the amplifier (effectively creating two separate MoCA network segments, one on each side of the amplifier).

I'm not locked-in on what coax runs you have available (the early diagrams have me confused), so can't offer any additional suggestions.

 

[krkaufman]

Start off simple and get the MOCA setup working in a test setup. Test in the room where your router is. This is where one of the MOCA adapters is going to have to be.

TEST

1. Connect adapter 1 to a LAN port on your router.
2. Take a piece of coaxial cable and connect between adapter 1 and adapter 2.
3. Connect your upstairs PC to MOCA adapter 2 using an Ethernet cable.
4. Power up both MOCA adapters and confirm that the coaxial cable is working as a LAN cable. Indicator lights on adapters will give you a clue but try connecting to web sites and run a few speed tests. If everything checks out then you are ready to go into production mode and if you experience problems in the production mode you will need to trouble shoot you coaxial network but at least you know the adapters are working.

PRODUCTION (Before starting locate any splitters in your home and verify and/or replace them with splitters that will pass in excess 1 Ghz. Normal CATV splitters installed by a MSO may be limited to 900 Mhz.)

1. Upstairs connect both your cable modem and adapter 1. Use a splitter if necessary. Plug the LAN port on the adapter into a LAN port on your router. Plug your PC back into the router.

2. Now go to any coaxial cable outlet in your home and connect adapter 2 to it and then check for LAN connectivity by plugging a PC into its LAN port. Use a splitter if necessary to connect both adapter 2 and a TV.

3. For any coaxial terminations that aren't used install terminators to reduce signal leakage.

4. Inside your demarc point which is usually outside the house install a MOCA filter before the splitter feeding your upstairs and downstairs service points on the line side/incoming side of the splitter.

In addition to the above direct-connect test detailed by @CaptainSTX, you may also want to consider a similar test using your suggested final setup for the gateway and main, bridging MoCA adapter...

does this work?? (see attached image). ...

View attachment 20537

... but temporarily install the 2nd MoCA adapter off the other output of that 2-way splitter in the same location as the gateway & main MoCA adapter -- rather than connecting the MoCA adapters to each other via a direct coax cable. The value of this latter test would be getting the MoCA network operational on the coax lines and seeing whether an active MoCA network has any effect on your gateway. (Some gateways become unstable when MoCA signals are present, especially older pre-MoCA modems and gateways, but also newer DOCSIS 3.1 modems/gateways -- since DOCSIS 3.1 and MoCA have overlapping frequencies.)

If you find your modem/gateway becomes unstable when MoCA signals are active, you can install a separate MoCA filter directly on the input of the modem/gateway to block the MoCA signals from hitting the device. (Note that connecting your modem/gateway via the device pass-through port of the goCoax MoCA adapter may have a similar effect to using a MoCA filter at/on the modem/gateway, in that MoCA signals should face severe attenuation when trying to pass through that port on the adapter.)

 

[ranger_rick]

Coax network: I plan to proceed with my last diagram. in short, I will be eliminating the coax run from the basement to the attic (I don't believe I correctly showed the cable runs in my original diagrams) What I found was that the cable splits on the outside of the house (at the cable enclosure).

One side of the split sends cable to the basement. In the basement the cable splits four ways. One coax to the voice modem. One to the attic and two coax runs to the first floor. In the attic the cable splits and comes back down and feeds to separate bedrooms (2nd floor) that are adjacent to one another.

I decided to eliminate the long cable run from the basement to the attic etc by using the second part of the external split. The second part of the external split goes up the outside of the house and enters one of the bedrooms mentioned previously. This bedroom has two feeds one from the outside and one from the attic. I decided to eliminate the attic feed. Split the coax where it enters the bedroom (from the outside) send one part of the split to the gateway (it currently does go to the gateway) and use the other side of split to run cable to the adjacent bedroom (which is currently fed from the attic)

Long story short: I am eliminating a two and half story cable run from my current coax network. I have yet to implement my changes because I am waiting for the tool to open my external cable enclosure.

POE filter: I have two MoCa POE filters. One will go on the cable feed inside the cable enclosure before the MoCa splitter. The other will be attached to the gateway coax feed.

I have not had a chance to run speed tests with MoCa boxes setup off the gateway for proof of concept.

 

[krkaufman]

This bedroom has two feeds one from the outside and one from the attic.

This second run to the gateway location does offer another solution... MoCA active only on the "basement" coax plant, with a "PoE" MoCA filter on the input of the 4-way splitter (keeping the MoCA signals from ever getting to the amplifier). Aside from being only a slight change to your current setup, a side benefit of this solution would be experienced, eventually, if/when your cable provider begins using DOCSIS 3.1, since it isolates the incoming cable Internet signal from the MoCA signals.

See attached...

​

p.s. You *may* need a separate MoCA filter on the input of the voice modem, if you find it becomes unstable when the MoCA network is activated.

p.p.s. This approach also has the benefit on not requiring any changes inside the cable box...

I have yet to implement my changes because I am waiting for the tool to open my external cable enclosure.

... though you may consider upgrading the basement and attic splitters to MoCA-compatible models (e.g. Holland GHS-PRO-M series) if you're not seeing good MoCA performance.

 

[ranger_rick]

your diagram accurately illustrates my current coax network sans MoCa connections and you modifications make sense.

basement AMP: as mentioned in a previous post, the cable company installed the AMP in an attempt to fix a "movie rental issue" the actual solution involved a billing error on the part of the cable company. I never removed the amp and have no way of accurately measuring cable single strength. buying a $78 single strength meter (that I will use once or twice) isn't in the budget. IMO I probably don't need it BUT I am working with long cable runs if i don't eliminate the attic run. if current coax network is left unmodified the AMP maybe necessary.

long cable runs: the quality of the cable running throughout the house is unknown. my thinking is/was that I could eliminate possible coax integrity issues by eliminating that long cable run to the attic etc.

path of least resistance: making modifications at the external box would be much easier than messing with the splitter in the attic. IMO for this system to work properly everything that is not MoCa compliant needs to be replaced.

here is the AMP I was considering for the basement if needed (again with the elimination of the long attic run and operating under the premise that i never actually needed and AMP in the first place NO amp would be necessary)

https://www.ppc-online.com/5-and-9-port-active-return-moca-enabled-coax-amplifier-splitter

 

[Robert Tomas]

your diagram accurately illustrates my current coax network sans MoCa connections and you modifications make sense.

Here is another diagram that might help put the Moca issue in perspective. I just posted this on another string but thought I'd include here for you. Hope it helps.
A few key things to remember is that the Moca signal must be introduced in front of the modem, splitters must be of correct frequency and bi-directional. Prior to my install my home had a signal amp on the cable signal coming into the house but I found it unnecessary in my situtation. I did require one on my OTA antenna feed. I used the Motorola Moca adapters and BAMF splitters.

 

[krkaufman]

A few key things to remember is that the Moca signal must be introduced in front of the modem

Depends on the coax plant. The OP could potentially keep their modem/gateway completely isolated from MoCA signals, a plus if/when their provider begins DOCSIS 3.1 deployment.

splitters must be of correct frequency

Splitters should be rated through 1675 MHz, ideally, but optimal splitters for MoCA have also been designed to have reduced output port isolation at MoCA frequencies, to facilitate MoCA signal port jumping. (i.e. It's about more than just the frequency spec on the label.) That said, MoCA can work w/ standard cable-rated splitters ... but the goCoax MoCA 2.5 adapters of the OP would likely be best served by MoCA-optimal splitters, to achieve maximum throughput ... but optimizing the setup can come later. The existing splitters may support basic MoCA connectivity, and even the full range of their Internet connection.

basement AMP: as mentioned in a previous post, the cable company installed the AMP in an attempt to fix a "movie rental issue" the actual solution involved a billing error on the part of the cable company. I never removed the amp and have no way of accurately measuring cable single strength. buying a $78 single strength meter (that I will use once or twice) isn't in the budget. IMO I probably don't need it BUT I am working with long cable runs if i don't eliminate the attic run. if current coax network is left unmodified the AMP maybe necessary.

Right, understood. Which is another reason my suggested approach is beneficial... it removes the amp as a concern for your MoCA connectivity by keeping all MoCA signals downstream from the amplifier, via the "PoE" MoCA filter installed on the input of the 4-way splitter.

I believe you should be able to test this suggested setup with only a single modification to your current setup ... installing a MoCA filter on the input of the 4-way splitter pictured in post #13.

 

[krkaufman]

here is the AMP I was considering for the basement if needed (again with the elimination of the long attic run and operating under the premise that i never actually needed and AMP in the first place NO amp would be necessary)

https://www.ppc-online.com/5-and-9-port-active-return-moca-enabled-coax-amplifier-splitter

Key spec: Built-in POE filter on Input port

As mentioned above...

Does such an amplifier exist? All "designed for MoCA" amps that I've seen are designed as drop amps, and have been designed to minimize loss at MoCA frequencies between the amplified output ports, and with a few "MoCA bypass" amplifiers also accommodating MoCA communication between the amplified output ports and the passive output port. Further, most "designed for MoCA" amps include a built-in MoCA filter, making such an amplifier even less likely to allow MoCA signals to pass between the input port and its outputs. (I expect such a sub-optimal setup would have better luck using a non-MoCA amp, since such an amp wouldn't include a built-in MoCA filter.)

Passing MoCA through an amplifier's input port is not recommended, generally, and especially problematic if the amplifier has a built-in "PoE" MoCA filter.

 

[krkaufman]

path of least resistance: making modifications at the external box would be much easier than messing with the splitter in the attic. IMO for this system to work properly everything that is not MoCa compliant needs to be replaced.

Scratch "properly" and replace it with "optimally." MoCA is designed to work with sub-optimal splitters, having built-in power amplification. It's possible that you'll get acceptable performance using your existing splitters.

 

[ranger_rick]

I believe you should be able to test this suggested setup with only a single modification to your current setup ... installing a MoCA filter on the input of the 4-way splitter pictured in post #13.

so leave the AMP and add a POE filter to the input side of the four way? sounds too easy but doable.

adding an additional POE filter to the voice modem coax input would also be doable.

I guess the most difficult part of this solution will be me getting to the upper gateway lol (the room/office has been commandeered by wife who decided to clean out her closet)

 

[krkaufman]

so leave the AMP and add a POE filter to the input side of the four way? sounds too easy but doable.

Exactly.* It's worth a shot, anyway, and closely maps to your original plans and the early bullet #3&4 suggestions by @Datalink in post #2. The extra coax run from the basement coax into the commandeered office (funny) makes it possible.

Basically, keeping everything as-is, to minimize disturbance to your existing setup. You can then optimize moving forward. (Upgrade splitters, determine if amp is even needed, etc.) I expect that if you're able to get a decent cable signal at the upstairs cable box that the coax run from the basement through the attic will adequately support your MoCA dreams.


*edit: I'm assuming that's the only change needed to your existing setup to accomplish the suggested configuration, diagrammed above, which I believe you confirmed in post #29:

your diagram accurately illustrates my current coax network sans MoCa connections and you modifications make sense.

 

[ranger_rick]

*edit: I'm assuming that's the only change needed to your existing setup to accomplish the suggested configuration, diagrammed above, which I believe you confirmed in post #29:

​

I do need to configure the goCoax boxes and then run a performance test to get some baseline numbers

 

[krkaufman]

I do need to configure the goCoax boxes and then run a performance test to get some baseline numbers

Yes, the direct-connect test would be most beneficial in understanding best case as a comparison against what you find with the adapters placed at their permanent homes. (And, beyond a speed test, it would also be helpful to access the configuration UI of one of the adapters to document the MoCA statistics, again as a point of comparison.)

 

[krkaufman]

Hello everyone: I am new to the forum and received two goCoax 2.5 boxes for Christmas

If/when the tech issues are addressed, I'd love to hear more about who gives MoCA 2.5 adapters as Christmas presents.

 

[ranger_rick]

If/when the tech issues are addressed, I'd love to hear more about who gives MoCA 2.5 adapters as Christmas presents.

Well its one of those things that when no one knows what to get you for Christmas and they insist on getting you a gift. My wife said "this is your budget" and I sent her an amazon link lmao. I explained to her that it will improve the internet connection throughout the house and she thought it would make a proper Christmas gift.

Question: In the current working diagram I (we) have a computer connected to one of the goCoax boxes (first floor). What should I be looking for if I wanted to make that connection WiFi access point. A wifi router or extender? Obviously it would be a wired (ethernet) connection to the goCoax box. Is there anything network specific?

At this point I am overthinking it. I have a NETGEAR AC1200 Wifi extender that has an access point mode. I guess I am thinking that I need something more robust with additional LAN ports etc.

Not really a NETGEAR fan but it works.

Any recommendations?

 

[Smokindog]

Boy, a lot to digest in this thread and a lot of good discussion.

Maybe I missed it but for me, a step was skipped. I'm still scratching my head on the first picture with two CableCO feeds that are tied together in the house (UP and DOWN). Are there REALLY two active feeds from the CableCO? Are they accessible to you? Can you first experiment by unplugging one and then the other to see what changes with respect to current/existing performance/functionality?

I'm going to bet a nickel that only one of those two feeds are active and if I'm right, a lot of stuff gets a lot more simple. I've seen a LOT of messes over the years where most of the connected cables are "historic" and no longer needed.

Like I said, maybe I missed it and I'm perfectly open to being wrong (happens a lot) but I like to simplify my starting point when I begin projects like this. Unplug EVERYTHING that is not actively required and then do the redesign, if any.

Good luck.