The 9880 is an AC device, so should support standard 802.11ac beamforming
NETGEAR R7500 Nighthawk X4 AC2350 Router
- Thread starter mediatrek
- Start date
I always thought the QCA9880 was a first gen Qualcomm-Atheros AC chip which those did not support transmit beamforming. Here the chip is listed as not supporting it.
I checked on this and you are correct. Sorry for my error.
The Qualcomm core has meant in the past that there will be no open source firmware support for it. Given Netgear's history, I'd not even look at this for about 9 months without open source firmware support *smile*. We'll see, I guess.
The Netgear firmware for the R7000 is finally working well after 10 months...
The Netgear firmware for the R7000 is finally working well after 10 months...
ChristineBCW
Regular Contributor
Back on page 2, as I was trying to catch up on this topic...
Me, I'm going to wait to see how much longer a second company will deliver adapters for any of these birds...
Hey, I've seen those tablets hop and flip around on picnic tables - dancing to some unseen music. Pretty high performance! Of course, every time I have wanted to see similar performance in a store, it never happens. They sit there like a bump on a pickle. No foxtrots, not even a rhumba...
Me, I'm going to wait to see how much longer a second company will deliver adapters for any of these birds...
Beamforming for Nighthawk
According to Netgear's site the router supports Beamforming....
WiFi Range
Homes come in all shapes and sizes and the Nighthawk X4 provides WiFi coverage no matter where you connect in your home.
image
Ultimate range—WiFi coverage throughout very large homes
image
Antennas—High-powered amplifiers and four high-performance external antennas
image
BEAMFORMING+—Boosts speed, reliability, and range of WiFi connections
According to Netgear's site the router supports Beamforming....
WiFi Range
Homes come in all shapes and sizes and the Nighthawk X4 provides WiFi coverage no matter where you connect in your home.
image
Ultimate range—WiFi coverage throughout very large homes
image
Antennas—High-powered amplifiers and four high-performance external antennas
image
BEAMFORMING+—Boosts speed, reliability, and range of WiFi connections
Quantenna won't be a big obstacle. Both myself and DD-WRT are supporting the RT-AC87 which also has the Quantenna SoC for the 5 GHz band. I wouldn't be surprised to see DD-WRT eventually also support this router, unless the Qualcomm side of things proves to be an obstacle.
NETNewb
Occasional Visitor
Streamboost in R7500
Hello folks, new here but been reading this website for some time.
I'm interested in this R7500 but, I tried that Dlink DGL-5500 and I found it was not always correct in determining what my computer or game systems were actually using. As an example, sometimes it would confuse traffic on my Xboxes as Bittorrent traffic instead of game traffic and would therefore really limit it.
My question is, do you think that Streamboost will be more accurate dealing with Netgear than it was with the DGL-5500?
To be fair, I know the two routers aren't even in the same topic of conversation in terms of specs, my concern is more with Streamboost itself.
Thoughts?
Thank you!
Hello folks, new here but been reading this website for some time.
I'm interested in this R7500 but, I tried that Dlink DGL-5500 and I found it was not always correct in determining what my computer or game systems were actually using. As an example, sometimes it would confuse traffic on my Xboxes as Bittorrent traffic instead of game traffic and would therefore really limit it.
My question is, do you think that Streamboost will be more accurate dealing with Netgear than it was with the DGL-5500?
To be fair, I know the two routers aren't even in the same topic of conversation in terms of specs, my concern is more with Streamboost itself.
Thoughts?
Thank you!
How long ago did you try the D-Link? Streamboost is supposed to be constantly learning about new protocols and applications and be automatically updated. But you need to opt into the auto updates. Did you?
Only way to know is to try it, unfortunately.
I played around with the DGL-5500 for months myself and it was a mess IMO. I also experienced the Streamboost detection issues you mentioned with that model. However, I switched to the Zyxel NBG6716, which also uses Qualcom-Atheros's Streamboost engine. The NBG6716 had zero of the Streamboost detection issues that the DGL-5500 had. Zyxel & Qualcomm-Atheros had much more frequent tweaks, enhancements and database updates to the NBG6716 than what d-Link did with their model.
azazel1024
Very Senior Member
Hmmm that is interesting. I wonder if that is a QCA "wide" thing, or if only some of their 2.4GHz radios in 11ac devices don't support explicit beamforming. I don't really know what radio is in my current AC1750 router, but it at least seems to be doing 2.4GHz EBF based on general behavior and signal strengths versus a vaguely similar product as well as swapping between an 11ac and 11n client connecting on 2.4GHz to see the RSSIs and general behavior. At least based on what I know of the manufacturer, they seem to use QCA pretty exclusively.
My Review of NETGEAR Nighthawk R7500
I work with Netgear helping to support users in forums and comment and review their products. I am a user of the equipment and my use case is primarily media focused both home theater as well as mobile. Below is a review I wrote for AVS. I copied the text here.
The R7500 will be shipping in about a week in the US. Price on it is $279. Many of the specs you have had are correct. The thing missing is what Netgear did with QOS. They created a Dynamic QOS which in my experience is excellent. I go into some detail in the review. Also what I believe you may have missed is the esata port. This eliminates the prior bottlenecks we have seen in router based storage.
I don't go into the technical aspects of the unit. I am not an engineer. Just an avid user. I will leave that to Tim Higgins to cover. But I hope you find some value in what I have.
Bob Silver
NETGEAR Networking Assistant
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-ne...wk-x4-r7500-ac2350-extreme-router-thread.html
I work with Netgear helping to support users in forums and comment and review their products. I am a user of the equipment and my use case is primarily media focused both home theater as well as mobile. Below is a review I wrote for AVS. I copied the text here.
The R7500 will be shipping in about a week in the US. Price on it is $279. Many of the specs you have had are correct. The thing missing is what Netgear did with QOS. They created a Dynamic QOS which in my experience is excellent. I go into some detail in the review. Also what I believe you may have missed is the esata port. This eliminates the prior bottlenecks we have seen in router based storage.
I don't go into the technical aspects of the unit. I am not an engineer. Just an avid user. I will leave that to Tim Higgins to cover. But I hope you find some value in what I have.
Bob Silver
NETGEAR Networking Assistant
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-ne...wk-x4-r7500-ac2350-extreme-router-thread.html
R7500 shortened Review Text
NETGEAR Nighthawk X4 R7500 AC2350 Extreme Performance Router
NETGEAR introduced a new member of its AC router family today the X4 R7500 Nighthawk. This makes for the 7th AC router in NETGEAR's product line. And the 3rd in the Nighthawk series. I have been aware of the coming of the X4 for a few months but had not had an opportunity to spend time with the product managers until a few weeks ago.
Frankly I had been confused where the X4 fit in the Nighthawk family. I clearly understood the X3 and the X6. Both made total sense to me. So what were the X4 differences?
The Nighthawk X4 AC2350 design was to take the AC standard to its maximum using the latest chip technology called Quad Stream Wave 2. Like all wifi standards starting with N there are various implementations a manufacturer may make. Generally these implementations have to do with bandwidth available by virtue of the number of radios used per band. The radios can be confusing. In each band (2.4 or 5ghz) in the case of AC there can be a minimum of 1 to a maximum of 4 (in the 5ghz band) with each radio responsible for up to 450mbs (in reality its 433mbs though) of bandwidth in the 5ghz range. At 4 radios the AC 5ghz max speed is 1.75 Gigabits per second Gbs (in reality again its 1.73 Gbs) The 2.4 ghz band in AC has a limit of 3 radios and 200mbs per radio for a max speed of 600mbs. So in essence the X4 is the ultimate AC router maximizing the AC specification.
Hardware wise the X4 looks just like the X3. The antenna design is different and each is marked with a matching number for placement on the unit. In the X3 all were the same. There is a esata port and 2 USB 3.0 ports which Ill cover later. Lastly there is a switch on the back to turn off the led's but that actually is in the software too which has more granular control which I like a lot (its in the X3 settings too). The X4 is wall mountable which I like too. The X6 was not.
Port placement is a bit different. On the back are the Wan and Lan ports, power switch and led switch. On the right side is the esata port and the left the USB 3.0 ports. Personally I like ports on the back but I know it's a design challenge to fit all the needed components in one area. But it is improved over the X3 IMHO.
Given the fact that there are so few AC clients in the world (although this is changing rapidly now) I wondered why anyone would want or need the X4. As a user of the X3 and X6 things were going pretty well as it is. Why would I purchase the X4 over the lessor price and excellent Nighthawk X3 or the double bandwidth Nighthawk X6 which is only $20 more then the X4? Plus NETGEAR with the X3 and the X6 have worked magic with Beamforming to enhance legacy N clients already. Beamforming plus higher powered RF amplifiers and antennas as well as a very rich feature set really left me wondering why the X4.
Hardware wise the X4 is a complete departure from the X3. While they look the same with the exception of the 4th antenna. The X4 has a whole new processing architecture. The X3 and X6 used the same cpu with the primary differences being the X6 used "Offload Processors" with each of its radios to handle the wireless activities.
The X4 differs in that it uses a completely new CPU architecture then it's Nighthawk siblings. While it is listed at a 40% clock speed bump the actual performance is as much as 2x plus. This is because of techniques we see in modern day PC cpu's like pipelining and other cpu tricks. The net is that the X4 is significantly faster then either the X3 or the X6. The X4 also uses similar Offload Processors for its for radios in the same way that the X6 does. So in pure horsepower (ie the race car) the X4 is a significant leap up.
But what does that mean to me as a user? This is the question I kept coming back to. Now we get to the money shot in my opinion.
Because of this increase in CPU power NETGEAR was able to do a lot more with the X4 as it relates to performance oriented tasks. In particular is the data sharing and streaming support. The X4 hosts 2 USB 3.0 ports and a first an esata port. While USB 3.0 is fast the best performance from a hard drive will come from the esata connection. This will allow high performance NAS like streaming through your router. This plus the 2 USB 3.0 ports allows for an exceptional amount of high speed storage. When I asked how much faster the Readyshare performance will be then its siblings I was told 2+ times faster then the X3 or the X6. That is significant. I haven't yet tested that but I wouldn't be surprised that the bottleneck in router based storage sharing is now gone.
Each new high end router that NETGEAR introduces has advances in the software technology. We saw Implicit Beamforming in the Nighthawk X3 that maximized N legacy clients. We saw Smart Connect in the X6 that places high speed devices in one of the 5ghz bands and slower devices in the other.
The X4's Dynamic QOS
The X4 has a new software technology focuses on Dynamic Quality of Service. You may think (as I did) well don't most routers have this? Well the answer is no. Most routers have QOS that either can look at an app and make determination or look at devices MAC address and make a determination but that's about it. Even in Smart Switches this is pretty similar and basic.
The X4 Dynamic QOS is a location aware, device aware and application aware intelligent system. In my opinion this is the most impressive part of the X4. It works like this.
When you set up an X4 and turn on Dynamic QOS the first thing it wants to do is test your internet connection for speed and ping times (lag). From this data it can then begin to determine the best way to organize the devices and applications in your network.
The software is intelligent in that it understands that there may be different devices running the same application and there needs to be a priority. A good example is Netflix. Sure any QOS based router knows that this is video streaming. But what if you have your Smart TV playing a movie and the kids watching a movie on an Xbox. Who gets priority. In the traditional router each would receive equal priority thus reducing quality for both (unless you have a mega pipe like 150mbs or better and then it doesn't matter). But for the majority of us with more traditional internet speeds this is an issue since low Netflix quality on a big screen is terrible.
The Dynamic QOS knows that both Netflix streams need to prioritize. And it will give 1st priority to the Smart TV and second to the Xbox. The software also understand how Netflix manages quality based on available bandwidth. This is key to making this work. Some apps use adaptive streaming (Netflix) and others use buffer based streaming (YouTube). Knowing how they work is crucial to getting this right. But if the Xbox is being used for gaming instead the Xbox gets 1st priority (to give you the lowest ping times and lag) and the TV second since it knows bandwidth demands on gaming are low but latency needs are high.
This issue of multiple apps and devices in a home is a big one. I have a small pipe. A 2mbs DSL line. QOS is critical to me as I stream, use a VOIP phone, Bit Torrent download, web surf and the other usual things. Prior to my use of the X4 I had to set a schedule for my bit torrents to only occur in the middle of the night as it brought every thing else to a crawl. Even with limits turned on.
Since installing the X4 and having the Dynamic QOS in operation I have been using it 24/7 and everything else is working just fine. When I go to stream there is a little delay while the X4 adjusts things but it has worked surprisingly well. This to me is huge.
So the X4 with Dynamic QOS is critical for anyone who has limited internet bandwidth and is looking for maximum performance for Gaming, Streaming and VOIP. Add to the complexity of multiple devices with similar apps you now have an intelligent device able to mange that. BTW the Dynamic QOS works on all devices wired or wireless.
NETGEAR also built into the X4 a dynamic update ability for the QOS database. As new apps come out, new devices come onto the market NETGEAR captures this data and updates the X4 to keep it current. The more users of this system the better it will become. As I said its working really well for me now as it is.
Conclusion
The NETGEAR Nighthawk R7500 X4 is an evolutionary router. At $279 it is a premium priced product. But it is a premium product. The X4 utilizes all the AC spec has to offer so until we move to the next generation of wireless you are pretty safe to assume you won't need to upgrade for quite some time.
I have been using the X4 for about a week now. Unlike the X3 when it first came out its software is fully baked. It is stable, setup went like it should and everything about worked as expected. There was a firmware update when I first powered it on but after that its been running like a champ. I have over 50 devices in my network and all appear very happy. I can report no issues at all.
R7500 X4 Data Sheet https://www.dropbox.com/s/n4v9wum05b...Sheet.pdf?dl=0
X Series Comparison https://www.dropbox.com/s/4rhy41i5zq...isons.png?dl=0
About me.
I am an independent technology consultant and avid computer, video and media geek. I personally use everything I write about. NETGEAR employs me as a consultant to support user forums, make recommendations for network designs, problem solve user issues and write commentary about products, trends and applications. NETGEAR provides me access to their product team and engineers when needed. I am not an engineer. I am a user of the technology who lives with it day by day. While I have access to NETGEAR my comments are my own as are my experiences and opinions.
Bob Silver
NETGEAR Networking Assistant
NETGEAR Nighthawk X4 R7500 AC2350 Extreme Performance Router
NETGEAR introduced a new member of its AC router family today the X4 R7500 Nighthawk. This makes for the 7th AC router in NETGEAR's product line. And the 3rd in the Nighthawk series. I have been aware of the coming of the X4 for a few months but had not had an opportunity to spend time with the product managers until a few weeks ago.
Frankly I had been confused where the X4 fit in the Nighthawk family. I clearly understood the X3 and the X6. Both made total sense to me. So what were the X4 differences?
The Nighthawk X4 AC2350 design was to take the AC standard to its maximum using the latest chip technology called Quad Stream Wave 2. Like all wifi standards starting with N there are various implementations a manufacturer may make. Generally these implementations have to do with bandwidth available by virtue of the number of radios used per band. The radios can be confusing. In each band (2.4 or 5ghz) in the case of AC there can be a minimum of 1 to a maximum of 4 (in the 5ghz band) with each radio responsible for up to 450mbs (in reality its 433mbs though) of bandwidth in the 5ghz range. At 4 radios the AC 5ghz max speed is 1.75 Gigabits per second Gbs (in reality again its 1.73 Gbs) The 2.4 ghz band in AC has a limit of 3 radios and 200mbs per radio for a max speed of 600mbs. So in essence the X4 is the ultimate AC router maximizing the AC specification.
Hardware wise the X4 looks just like the X3. The antenna design is different and each is marked with a matching number for placement on the unit. In the X3 all were the same. There is a esata port and 2 USB 3.0 ports which Ill cover later. Lastly there is a switch on the back to turn off the led's but that actually is in the software too which has more granular control which I like a lot (its in the X3 settings too). The X4 is wall mountable which I like too. The X6 was not.
Port placement is a bit different. On the back are the Wan and Lan ports, power switch and led switch. On the right side is the esata port and the left the USB 3.0 ports. Personally I like ports on the back but I know it's a design challenge to fit all the needed components in one area. But it is improved over the X3 IMHO.
Given the fact that there are so few AC clients in the world (although this is changing rapidly now) I wondered why anyone would want or need the X4. As a user of the X3 and X6 things were going pretty well as it is. Why would I purchase the X4 over the lessor price and excellent Nighthawk X3 or the double bandwidth Nighthawk X6 which is only $20 more then the X4? Plus NETGEAR with the X3 and the X6 have worked magic with Beamforming to enhance legacy N clients already. Beamforming plus higher powered RF amplifiers and antennas as well as a very rich feature set really left me wondering why the X4.
Hardware wise the X4 is a complete departure from the X3. While they look the same with the exception of the 4th antenna. The X4 has a whole new processing architecture. The X3 and X6 used the same cpu with the primary differences being the X6 used "Offload Processors" with each of its radios to handle the wireless activities.
The X4 differs in that it uses a completely new CPU architecture then it's Nighthawk siblings. While it is listed at a 40% clock speed bump the actual performance is as much as 2x plus. This is because of techniques we see in modern day PC cpu's like pipelining and other cpu tricks. The net is that the X4 is significantly faster then either the X3 or the X6. The X4 also uses similar Offload Processors for its for radios in the same way that the X6 does. So in pure horsepower (ie the race car) the X4 is a significant leap up.
But what does that mean to me as a user? This is the question I kept coming back to. Now we get to the money shot in my opinion.
Because of this increase in CPU power NETGEAR was able to do a lot more with the X4 as it relates to performance oriented tasks. In particular is the data sharing and streaming support. The X4 hosts 2 USB 3.0 ports and a first an esata port. While USB 3.0 is fast the best performance from a hard drive will come from the esata connection. This will allow high performance NAS like streaming through your router. This plus the 2 USB 3.0 ports allows for an exceptional amount of high speed storage. When I asked how much faster the Readyshare performance will be then its siblings I was told 2+ times faster then the X3 or the X6. That is significant. I haven't yet tested that but I wouldn't be surprised that the bottleneck in router based storage sharing is now gone.
Each new high end router that NETGEAR introduces has advances in the software technology. We saw Implicit Beamforming in the Nighthawk X3 that maximized N legacy clients. We saw Smart Connect in the X6 that places high speed devices in one of the 5ghz bands and slower devices in the other.
The X4's Dynamic QOS
The X4 has a new software technology focuses on Dynamic Quality of Service. You may think (as I did) well don't most routers have this? Well the answer is no. Most routers have QOS that either can look at an app and make determination or look at devices MAC address and make a determination but that's about it. Even in Smart Switches this is pretty similar and basic.
The X4 Dynamic QOS is a location aware, device aware and application aware intelligent system. In my opinion this is the most impressive part of the X4. It works like this.
When you set up an X4 and turn on Dynamic QOS the first thing it wants to do is test your internet connection for speed and ping times (lag). From this data it can then begin to determine the best way to organize the devices and applications in your network.
The software is intelligent in that it understands that there may be different devices running the same application and there needs to be a priority. A good example is Netflix. Sure any QOS based router knows that this is video streaming. But what if you have your Smart TV playing a movie and the kids watching a movie on an Xbox. Who gets priority. In the traditional router each would receive equal priority thus reducing quality for both (unless you have a mega pipe like 150mbs or better and then it doesn't matter). But for the majority of us with more traditional internet speeds this is an issue since low Netflix quality on a big screen is terrible.
The Dynamic QOS knows that both Netflix streams need to prioritize. And it will give 1st priority to the Smart TV and second to the Xbox. The software also understand how Netflix manages quality based on available bandwidth. This is key to making this work. Some apps use adaptive streaming (Netflix) and others use buffer based streaming (YouTube). Knowing how they work is crucial to getting this right. But if the Xbox is being used for gaming instead the Xbox gets 1st priority (to give you the lowest ping times and lag) and the TV second since it knows bandwidth demands on gaming are low but latency needs are high.
This issue of multiple apps and devices in a home is a big one. I have a small pipe. A 2mbs DSL line. QOS is critical to me as I stream, use a VOIP phone, Bit Torrent download, web surf and the other usual things. Prior to my use of the X4 I had to set a schedule for my bit torrents to only occur in the middle of the night as it brought every thing else to a crawl. Even with limits turned on.
Since installing the X4 and having the Dynamic QOS in operation I have been using it 24/7 and everything else is working just fine. When I go to stream there is a little delay while the X4 adjusts things but it has worked surprisingly well. This to me is huge.
So the X4 with Dynamic QOS is critical for anyone who has limited internet bandwidth and is looking for maximum performance for Gaming, Streaming and VOIP. Add to the complexity of multiple devices with similar apps you now have an intelligent device able to mange that. BTW the Dynamic QOS works on all devices wired or wireless.
NETGEAR also built into the X4 a dynamic update ability for the QOS database. As new apps come out, new devices come onto the market NETGEAR captures this data and updates the X4 to keep it current. The more users of this system the better it will become. As I said its working really well for me now as it is.
Conclusion
The NETGEAR Nighthawk R7500 X4 is an evolutionary router. At $279 it is a premium priced product. But it is a premium product. The X4 utilizes all the AC spec has to offer so until we move to the next generation of wireless you are pretty safe to assume you won't need to upgrade for quite some time.
I have been using the X4 for about a week now. Unlike the X3 when it first came out its software is fully baked. It is stable, setup went like it should and everything about worked as expected. There was a firmware update when I first powered it on but after that its been running like a champ. I have over 50 devices in my network and all appear very happy. I can report no issues at all.
R7500 X4 Data Sheet https://www.dropbox.com/s/n4v9wum05b...Sheet.pdf?dl=0
X Series Comparison https://www.dropbox.com/s/4rhy41i5zq...isons.png?dl=0
About me.
I am an independent technology consultant and avid computer, video and media geek. I personally use everything I write about. NETGEAR employs me as a consultant to support user forums, make recommendations for network designs, problem solve user issues and write commentary about products, trends and applications. NETGEAR provides me access to their product team and engineers when needed. I am not an engineer. I am a user of the technology who lives with it day by day. While I have access to NETGEAR my comments are my own as are my experiences and opinions.
Bob Silver
NETGEAR Networking Assistant
Last edited by a moderator:
azazel1024
Very Senior Member
It is certainly always possible that it is a regular 2.4GHz 11n radio/daughter board within the router (I assume its on the PCB and not a daughter board).
At least in terms of behavior, and example is
With my T100 tablet sitting at my kitchen table with my WDR3600 11n router, RSSI is -73dbM 2.4GHz. With my laptop with an Intel 7260ac in it the signal strength is -71dBm.
Swapping out the WDR3600 in the exact same physical location to the AC1750 router and the 2.4GHz signal strength goes to -71dBm with the T100 tablet and -70dBm on the laptop, for a second or two, then it'll jump to -60dBm and stay more or less locked in to that. That is the most extreme example, but in general with the tablet and laptop, the laptop generally only has a 1-2dBm edge in signal strength over my tablet with several different 11n routers/AP/extenders I've tested on 2.4GHz and actually a 1-2dBm defficit in 5GHz.
This AC1750 router is the only AC product I have with beamforming (certainly in 5GHz, I know that for a fact, in 2.4GHz...it seems to, but don't know) (I also have an AC750 extender, but since it is 1:1 in 5GHz, it can't have beamforming). It is also the only product I have that shows such a huge difference in signal strength. It typically ranges from 2-6dBm higher signal strength in 5GHz over my tablet (even though with 11n products it is typically 1-2dBm lower in signal strength) and ranges from 3-10dBm higher in signal strength on 2.4GHz.
It may have nothing to do with EBF, but it at least seems to be (to me).
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