NETGEAR Suing ASUS For Wireless Hanky Panky

[RMerlin]

That is not the worst case scenario. Look at the CISO suit against Buffalo. Buffalo had to stop selling all wireless products in the US while the suit proceeded.

I would expect NETGEAR to request that the court do the same with ASUS. CISO was only charging patent infringement while NETGEAR us charging illegal activity.

OTOH, the CISO suit was in the Texas court known for being friendly to patent trolls.

I was talking about BostonDan's point of view in regards to what would happen if he bought a router now and Asus ended up being found guilty. But you're right - from Asus's own point of view, the worst that can happen is indeed a product ban.

 

[thiggins]

I was talking about BostonDan's point of view in regards to what would happen if he bought a router now and Asus ended up being found guilty. But you're right - from Asus's own point of view, the worst that can happen is indeed a product ban.

i agree no one is going to confiscate routers!

 

[Razor512]

Instead of netgear trying to sue them, why not 1 up asus and go like, so you aregoing to offer slightly over 1 watt of transmit power, well we are going to use 1500 watts and put your microwave to shame, try topping that asus.

then asus will come out with a router that has 2 power supplies so you can use 2 different 15 amp outlets (on 2 different circuits) and have their router giving out 3000 watts transmit power and then market the router as able to keep you warm in the winter.

and then to make it FCC compliant, develop a way of detecting a testing lab (eg far too low of a noise floor from being in a RF shielded room), and lowering the power to be within the fcc limits.



Or make a router which has a really high transmit power but before the wifi radio can be enabled, have a license agreement that states that by turning the wifi on you agree to find us in compliance of all FCC limitations regardless of results, then just have a router dish out 1000+ watts

 

[jlake]

Does this lawsuit also apply to the RT-N66U?

So let me see if I have this staight.

Netgear notifies Asus that they are going to file a lawsuit. Netgear claims that Asus has made numerous firmware changes since that notification.

Coincidentally we see old firmware disappear from Asus RT-N66U website and there's a story from Asus about a new incompatible flash chip.

Hmmm.

Coincidence? Or is the story about an incompatible flash chip a ruse.

Personally I could care less, but I would like to know the truth about the flash chip story. I now find the story about the incompatible flash chip somewhat incredulous.

 

[BostonDan]

New Firmware Retest

I didn't realized that Asus has pulled the older firmware. I will be waiting to see how the new N66U and AC66U firmware impacts performance. Has anyone noticed changes in performance once "upgrading" to the latest firmware?

 

[RMerlin]

Coincidentally we see old firmware disappear from Asus RT-N66U website and there's a story from Asus about a new incompatible flash chip.

Hmmm.

Coincidence? Or is the story about an incompatible flash chip a ruse.

Personally I could care less, but I would like to know the truth about the flash chip story. I now find the story about the incompatible flash chip somewhat incredulous.

It's not a ruse. Asus even emailed me the kernel patch required to support that new flash chip. DD-WRT also had to apply the same patch to their own code. The older firmwares were removed to ensure people don't try to flash it on a Revision B2 router, cause it would brick them. That was also clearly told to me by Asus, and I can tell you that on a technical level, this makes sense. There was even reports of DD-WRT users with the first few revision B2 bricking their router when trying to flash DD-WRT on it.

And this is also why ONLY the RT-N66U firmwares were pulled from their website.

The patch in question can be seen here.

 

[thiggins]

Does this lawsuit also apply to the RT-N66U?

it is not specifically named in the suit. But the suit claims that [all] ASUS wireless routers don't meet FCC test limits for Radiated Emission band Edge Test, Power Density, Radiated Emission, RF Antenna Conducted Test and Occupied Bandwidth.

And the suit asks that ASUS be barred from selling any non-FCC compliant routers.

 

[stevech]

FCC regulations only address the band edges. They don't care about adjacent channel interference within the band - they just regulate how much RF energy "spills" outside the band, i.e., on the low end, < 2400MHz. There a spec "spectral mask" applied at the edges of the band (US band).

The limit on max power away from band edges is much higher than chipsets can do.

Note that the spectral mask limits are far more stringent in Japan and France, than the US. You will see that some IEEE 802.15.4 radios (different type of modulation than 802.11) disable the lowest and highest channels in some regulatory domains other than the US. Such as FreeScale.

The transmitted waveform purity (rho), vs. the 802.11 spec, and the WiFi alliance's preferences, is NOT regulated by the FCC. They just look at RF energy and occupied bandwidth - no matter if it's 802.11 or not. They don't enforce the listen before transmit (CSMA/CA) rules, e.g., analog video baby monitors (CW) are legal.

The FCC does NOT do its own testing; they rely on "certified" test labs to test and submit reports. I think that most Asian garage shops fake it.

The suit is frivolous in my opinion. It's another "who can spend the most on lawyer-up"

 

[jerry6]

I can tell you why I switched from netgear to Asus , Asus supports their routers with fw upgrades for much longer periods , my netgear 3700 v1 has not been supported for a few years now . my rt=16 bought a few months after the 3700 is still getting fw upgrades and support , That is why no more netgear for me , plus the options on the Asus fw put netgears to shame .
And the 3700 had the 5 ghz radio crap out after 1 year .

 

[Razor512]

yep wish they will release updates more often, especially when it comes to software features which the older routers can support.

from what I have seen, netgear will offer firmware updates most of their older models, even the older b/g routers, but it will only be security related (eg if users report to them about a security issue) other than that, they are not likely to release updates for discontinued routers.

I just wish newer routers can get better open source firmware support. eg tomato and dd-wrt have been falling behind in performance and reliability.

mainly when it comes to wifi and WAN to LAN and LAN to WAN performance.

eg try tomato for the wnr3500l and r6300

(then again they need to fix the transmit power control to properly match the wifi radio kinda like with the netgear firmware on the WNDR4700 )

When development ramps up for tomato and other great alternative firmwares, I am sure more older routers will have a new life.

 

[sfx2000]

It's a bit of a serious issue for ASUS, as it calls the FCC Part 15 test results into question.

Since Netgear is claiming that ASUS and their test Lab gundecked the results of Part 15 testing - all of ASUS's test results are all in question - including test results dependent on Part 15, e.g. WiFi Alliance and all.

Not just the devices in question by Netgear - this is a serious issue for ASUS...

FCC only cares that Part 15 is compliant with regards to RF emissions - in-band as well as out of band - the issue at hand here is that you push a PA hard enough, the spurious emissions will jam other channels/radios in both the ISM and adjacent bands. If ASUS is found at fault - they're looking at all gear being blocked at the Port of Entry, and non-compliant gear can actually be confiscated - FCC has the power to do that.

And yes, they, the FED's/FCC/DHS crowd - they can go into your house, and take the gear - consider this at the point of purchase... not saying SWAT teams and all, but the Fed's do take this stuff seriously... you don't want a no knock warrant and tear gas in your house to take a router, not to mention shooting your dog and putting your kids in ZipCuffs(tm)

That alone reduces the Spousal Approval Factor...

Perhaps time to find another brand of router on your next purchase - ASUS routers are easily identified by their MAC address, and as such, also by their RF signature.

It's going to be an interesting case - ASUS obviously, should not comment - and they've said as much.

neat stuff.

sfx

Interesting stuff...

FCC 15.107 Conducted Emissions including AC Line
FCC 15.109 Unintentional radiation from ITE
FCC 15.205 Restricted bands of operation
FCC 15.207 Conducted emissions from intentional radiators
FCC 15.209 Radiated emission limits, general requirements
FCC 15.247 ISM Band Communication Equipment

 

[RMerlin]

And yes, they, the FED's/FCC/DHS crowd - they can go into your house, and take the gear - consider this at the point of purchase... not saying SWAT teams and all, but the Fed's do take this stuff seriously... you don't want a no knock warrant and tear gas in your house to take a router, not to mention shooting your dog and putting your kids in ZipCuffs(tm)

That sounds a bit over the top. Has there ever been any known case where this happened, or is that just speculation?

 

[GFOviedo]

So, should I start getting ready to return my Asus AC66U before my 60 days are up?

 

[RMerlin]

So, should I start getting ready to return my Asus AC66U before my 60 days are up?

There is no reason to. If you are satisfied with it, then keep it.

 

[jlake]

That sounds a bit over the top. Has there ever been any known case where this happened, or is that just speculation?

Yes it's over the top. I worked for two decades for state, federal, and local government enforcement of various titles of CFR in U.S.

Sfx's post is mostly fantasy/Hollywood, but humerous.

 

[stevech]

Yeah, you'll not see your consumer product confiscated. The FCC is all-consumed trying for more spectrum auctions to rake in more $Billions from cellular operators and thus, you and I.


The RF field strength tests are not well defined by the FCC's regulations, for modern modulation methods, SISO vs. MIMO-type, etc. At high data rate modes, the RMS power is lowered for OFDM. The field strength would be HIGHER for lower data rates, like 5-6dB (3dB is twice-power). This one example of where ca. 1980's test criteria and methods don't work in the FCC Part 15 filings. You can bet that the test house for all these vendors doesn't fail them, in the US anyway. Japan and France are notoriously more strict.

It's all fuzzy. I think the suit is frivolous and if I were ASUS, I'd counter-sue for damages. Then it becomes a battle of whose tech. expert's opinion will the judge take - much like the equally nasty lawsuits from Apple.

 

[sfx2000]

That sounds a bit over the top. Has there ever been any known case where this happened, or is that just speculation?

I was having a sarcasm attack

FCC can confiscate, and they're empowered to do so, but usually they don't act unless someone has a legitimate complaint - esp. in Part 15 space. Case in point in that we had a HAM in the neighbourhood, and he was out of spec, mostly due to HW maint - FCC didn't grab his gear, but they did notify him that he had an issue.

Now if I start seeing twitter feeds on my toast in the morning

ASUS should be more worried about the lawsuit and getting barred from the market, along with unsold gear having to be pulled off shelves that Netgear claims to be illegal, and only if Netgear is successful at getting it thru... At a business level, Netgear wouldn't have pushed it up to this level without trying to work it out thru informal paths first.

sfx

 

[sfx2000]

So, should I start getting ready to return my Asus AC66U before my 60 days are up?

You're ok... let things go thru the path they do. In any event, ASUS is on the hook to support you.

AC66U is just fine.

 

[RMerlin]

I was having a sarcasm attack

FCC can confiscate, and they're empowered to do so, but usually they don't act unless someone has a legitimate complaint - esp. in Part 15 space. Case in point in that we had a HAM in the neighbourhood, and he was out of spec, mostly due to HW maint - FCC didn't grab his gear, but they did notify him that he had an issue.

Now if I start seeing twitter feeds on my toast in the morning

ASUS should be more worried about the lawsuit and getting barred from the market, along with unsold gear having to be pulled off shelves that Netgear claims to be illegal, and only if Netgear is successful at getting it thru... At a business level, Netgear wouldn't have pushed it up to this level without trying to work it out thru informal paths first.

sfx

In this case however, unlike in a patent case, all it would require is a firmware update if really Asus were still shipping routers that emitted more radiations than allowed. So even pulling inventories off shelves seem unlikely to me. Most likely, if Asus were to be found guilty, it would end up in fines, and requirement to issue a software fix within "xxx" days to correct the problem.

And if they really are guilty of it, I suspect they would have already fixed it at the firmware level, and started to produce routers with a fixed version preinstalled. That case would probably drag out for a few months - enough time for new inventories with a fixed FW preinstalled to fill up the channels.

 

[sfx2000]

In this case however, unlike in a patent case, all it would require is a firmware update if really Asus were still shipping routers that emitted more radiations than allowed. So even pulling inventories off shelves seem unlikely to me. Most likely, if Asus were to be found guilty, it would end up in fines, and requirement to issue a software fix within "xxx" days to correct the problem.

And if they really are guilty of it, I suspect they would have already fixed it at the firmware level, and started to produce routers with a fixed version preinstalled. That case would probably drag out for a few months - enough time for new inventories with a fixed FW preinstalled to fill up the channels.

The practical problem, believe it or not, is the uptake on the firmware updates - whether to fix the "problem" like this or a security fix...

I've seen android firmware/software updates with an uptake rate of less than 10 percent across a fielded population - yes, true... Most folks are unaware, or just don't care as long as it works.

Like I mentioned - worst case for ASUS is to pull gear on the shelf, and flash in the field perhaps, and a repack from there.

Absolute worst case is to get gear barred at the POE for the affected gear.

My best guess is that ASUS will have to issue a firmware update to recalibrate the radios, and say "we're really really sorry and we promise to never do it again"...

sfx