Never turn off router?

[coxhaus]

That doesn't mean I don't want or wouldn't mind having them, but I can't justify the extra power consumption and especially can't justify the extra expense for a full L2 or a semi/full L3.

.

My Cisco SG300-28 layer 3 switch has 28 ports which can drive your future fiber needs you have talked about earlier with its' 2 combo mini-GBIC ports that will run multimode or single mode fiber. It can switch 56 GIG per second, 41 mpps (millions of packets per second) with 64K packets. This switch uses 19 watts worst case all ports loaded. 19 watts cannot cost that much to run.

I can stream HD to my TV and perform workstation backups using multiple VLANs at the same time and this switch does not skip a beat. It runs great. I was surprised what it would do for a couple hundred dollars. My TV is in the guest VLAN and my workstations are in the main VLAN. The switch is routing the traffic the whole time.

PS
Oh, it supports your Jumbo frames up to 9K.

 

[azazel1024]

I am leaning primarily on the initial cost. A TP-Link SG2424-24 port semi-managed switch runs less than $170 and has 4 shared SFP slots. The SG300-28 layer 3 is a >$400 switch. The 20 port version appears to be About $250. That is primarily what I mean on "extra expense". Looking at the specs that I can find, the power consumption is probably in the same realm. Maybe very slightly worse (it appears to be very efficient). I currently use an SG2216-16 port and it doesn't skip a beat with VLANs and lots of other work passing 2Gbps of data between client and server with whole host of other activities going on, on the network. The other 16 port is a Trendnet TEG160sw that I don't like nearly as much, but it works pretty well also.

 

[coxhaus]

I bought a SG300-28 off eBay for $200 plus shipping. I had to TFTP a good firmware version on to the switch to get it working the way I wanted. I downloaded a free TFTP server from SolarWinds. Once I got the switch straighten out I use the upgrade option in the GUI of the firmware to update the switch.
How are you handling the routing of your VLANs on the SG2216-16 switch?

 

[TekWarren]

It's an appliance. Do you unplug your TV when it's not in use, or your microwave oven, or your other electrical items? Power requirements are minimal, but there is a cost.

For security, SPI will protect you. Routers ignore inbound messages if they're not in response to outbound messages unless ports are left open ... in which case it's implied you may need 24/7 router access at times.

I suppose if you, for example, use the internet only during the day and you use the network for little else, you could put it on a timer that cuts power when you never expect to use it.

Actually...YES. My wife and I work long days, mine mostly due to an hour commute each way. During the week the house is empty 11-12hrs a day, over time the "drip" rate of standby power can really add up. It may be a petty thing, but if there is something I can easily do to save a few bucks why shouldn't I do it? I have a few things that I know/tested to use standby power (including the TV/PS4/etc, microwave, Keurig) plugged into adapters that I can fully cut via wireless remote.

I was switching off my router, AP, and modem for a while as well but my wife will occasionally come home for lunch when her work is slower and want to get online with her phone or PC. The inconvenience of her having to remember what items to turn on is not something I wish to impose on her when she is coming home during the day But in general that is still 10+ hours a day to just leave things "on" and sucking power even if at pennies a day...IMHO.

 

[sfx2000]

Some products/devices have a fairly high "vampire" current draw in standby - good example of this is my Scientific Atlanta cable TV set-top box - in standby mode the current draw is basically the same as it is when it's 'on-line' - if I power it off, when powering up, it takes on the order of 15-20 minutes to reacquire and register with the cable company head-end..

 

[stevech]

Without a $ service agreement with Cisco, can you get updates to the managed switch's firmware?

 

[coxhaus]

Without a $ service agreement with Cisco, can you get updates to the managed switch's firmware?

Updates are free for the small business switches and routers. The big Cisco gear you have to pay for updates.

 

[sfx2000]

And they're pretty open for folks that have devices for Home Study Labs (folks preparing for the various Cisco Certs...)

 

[System Error Message]

Updates are free for the small business switches and routers. The big Cisco gear you have to pay for updates.

Does that mean if i got a cisco edgerouter i'd have to pay for updates?

 

[stevech]

You can get Cisco tech support to even give you the time of day without a contract?

 

[sfx2000]

You can get Cisco tech support to even give you the time of day without a contract?

Depends on the context and if you know the secret handshakes and social engineering - if the device is EOL/EOS, they likely won't help you, if it's current they'll likely say look at the wall and tell them what time it is...

A concise question, they'll likely answer it without a support contract... they won't play with an easter egg hunt however... that does need a support contract...

 

[coxhaus]

Once you are out warranty with Cisco then they have support forums like this site with support engineers manning it. Technical issues can be resolved probably better than any of the consumer router forums. The Cisco guys are very technical on the forum.

PS
Several years ago I bought a WAP4410 wireless AP and there turned out to be a hardware bug. I called Cisco and they replaced the unit with a newer version for free.

 

[azazel1024]

I bought a SG300-28 off eBay for $200 plus shipping. I had to TFTP a good firmware version on to the switch to get it working the way I wanted. I downloaded a free TFTP server from SolarWinds. Once I got the switch straighten out I use the upgrade option in the GUI of the firmware to update the switch.
How are you handling the routing of your VLANs on the SG2216-16 switch?

Technically they aren't routed. I have the router port set on VLAN 1, 2 and 3. My kid's computer is a member of 3 and 4. Printer is on 4. Most everything else is a member of 1 (server, desktop, LAN drops, access points). APs and my desktop are 1 and 4. MoCA bridge is a member of 2.

So my DVR can only access the internet (well, or anything wirelessly connected to the router, sure). Network printer can only be accessed by my computer, my kid's computer and wireless devices. Wireless devices, server, my desktop and anything that gets plugged in to a LAN drop can access each other and the internet.

Took about maybe 15 minutes to setup and then verify.

 

[azazel1024]

Some products/devices have a fairly high "vampire" current draw in standby - good example of this is my Scientific Atlanta cable TV set-top box - in standby mode the current draw is basically the same as it is when it's 'on-line' - if I power it off, when powering up, it takes on the order of 15-20 minutes to reacquire and register with the cable company head-end..

STBs tick me off. My new one is better than the old one. Old one drew 45w on or standby. New one is 19w standby and 20w on. I guess I just don't see how hard it is use to use a SOC that can support S3 and wake timers for recording programming content. Can even use a WOL-esque feature for STB firmware updates from the CaCo. I'd imagine if they did that, just in the US, think of all of the power savings. If you figure 50 million STBs across house holds and it saved even just 12w of power, 18hrs of the day it is "off" (okay, it might be fewer hours than that, or maybe not)...that adds up to 4TWh of energy a year or the equivalent to about a 500mw power plant operating at 100% output 24/7/365.

 

[System Error Message]

A lot of networking gear really doesnt have proper power saving. intel and AMD implements theirs on a hardware level but for other manufacturers it requires to software to make use of it.
Qualcomm has power saving too but it has to be set using the CPU governer.

Take a typical recent AC wifi router for example, its idle and load power usage. There isnt even a downclock and in order to reduce cost is made without the ability to be powered on without sending power to different parts of the silicon. Its not only the CPU but the other chips such as wifi radios could for example have power saving by reducing their data rates till a client starts to use it. What i mean is that there is no clock scaling and such based on load. Even on the mikrotik CCR the hardware may support it but the extra cores just dont power off with very low loads. Many mobile ARM based CPUs can shut down idle cores except for core0 but you dont see this being done in networking hardware,

Compare the idle power of a dual core ARM A9 to that of a phone (such as the exynos 8core) with wifi on and measure the power usage. the ARM A9 should use a lot less power compared to the exynos but that doesnt happen.

 

[sfx2000]

Yep, guys, I agree with you totally - and SEM's use case of a typical AC class Router/AP is a good one...

It's both a hardware and software problem, and a fundamental design issue...

Hardware - look at a typical SoC, and it's more than just the cores, it's the other IP blocks - the switch, possibly a MAC/Baseband and there is little to no power management done there - the cores are typically running full speed, not much one can do with the switch, as there's timing involved, and the wifi block, well, since it is likely the WiFI AP, it can't power down can it, otherwise the BSS falls apart... add a USB 2/3 port, and that drives power consumption way up...

Most of these AP's don't even have a dedicated Power Management IC (PMIC), which handsets and tablets do have...

The software is also a challenge - many vendor SDK's have the *WRT builds in their DNA, and sleep time was never really a consideration - WRT goes back to a 100MHz MIP's core, which was never all that power hungry, and now that same SW is running a 1.0 to 1.4GHz ARMv7 dual core CPU...

So perhaps a new approach is needed - QC-Atheros might have the opportunity to bring some power efficiency into this area, if they leverage into Qualcomm's experience and expertise with mobile chipsets, and TP-Link/Google's move to Gentoo vs. WRT can be a good thing as well, bringing in and integrating a lot of work that has been done in the Linux kernel over the years...

(if you ever look at a vendor's GPL drop, pick it through, and you'll understand - it's not just pulling in the linux kernel changes, and call it done, there a lot of stuff and legacy support that makes it very difficult to do - OnHub's clean sheet might be a better solution over the longer term (privacy issues not withstanding, and that can all be removed anyhow...)

 

[JoeJoe]

I would like to get a general survey of the members here about this topic as I have a feeling that many (if not most) people just leave the router 'on' all the time.

So, do you run your router 24/7 ? (discounting the times of doing a firmware upgrade or problem diagnosis, of course)

If you never turn it off, is it because the router is located in a 'hard-to-access' spot of your home and so turning it on/off regularly just takes too much effort?

Or, is it because you have an actual need to run the router all the time?

Just being curious.

I turn it off as often as I turn off my fridge.

 

[coxhaus]

Technically they aren't routed. I have the router port set on VLAN 1, 2 and 3. My kid's computer is a member of 3 and 4. Printer is on 4. Most everything else is a member of 1 (server, desktop, LAN drops, access points). APs and my desktop are 1 and 4. MoCA bridge is a member of 2.

So my DVR can only access the internet (well, or anything wirelessly connected to the router, sure). Network printer can only be accessed by my computer, my kid's computer and wireless devices. Wireless devices, server, my desktop and anything that gets plugged in to a LAN drop can access each other and the internet.

Took about maybe 15 minutes to setup and then verify.

I have to have routing on my VLANs. I have a big color laser which I need to share across VLANs. I don't want to buy another one. I also need access to my server from all VLANs but I don't want everybody to have access. I guess my network needs are more complex than yours. I was not able to setup my networking switch in 15 minutes. It was more complex plus I hit a software bug in the firmware. It took a little while to get it all working. Now that I have it working I could probably set it up in an hour or so.

 

[stevech]

My worthless opinion: VLANs for a home or SOHO are usually a needless complication.

 

[coxhaus]

Have your music server infected by a computer someone brought over for you to fix. You will want an isolated LAN to protect your music server. There are other reasons but this is what started it. A true Guest network is really nice.

PS
Putting everything in one network is easy. Easy is what everybody goes for. VlANs are complicated but probably worth it in my opinion.