Port Forwarding question, help please?

[takitezsdc]

Ok I have a Asus RT68P and I have a question about port forwarding. I have a large home network with a Control4.com system, XBOX , 3 computers , Sonos, 7 DLink cameras, 3 iphones and a few kids that play video games ( ok ok ok 2 kids and me that plays online games such as WOW and GTAV). I am very confused about the whole port forwarding issue. It seems that without any port forwarding everything seems to work fine. BUT as most of you know, we all want faster and better connections, faster downloads and the best FPS we can get. Everything I read online says that port forwarding is the way to go . AND my Xbox is giving me issues about NAT? or something........which I read is caused by not having the ports forwarded? Forgive me if I am wrong, its just my understanding...........

So to get to my question, All the port forwarding guides say to port forward port 80 53 and other ports, that they need to be open. But lets say I set up my XBOX and portforwarding.com says to port forward ports 80 and 53 for the Xbox, but when I set up my DVR the techs that help me set it up, told me to forward port 80 for the DVR that is on ip 192.168.X but then as I said the guide for xbox says I should port forward port 80 to the xbox with IP address 192.168.1.Y.

If you set up ports 80 , 53 and other basic ports to one IP address then what do you do about the other 10 games or devices that say, that they too should be set up on the router to forward it to the same port 80 the DVR is using? My testing has shown me that the router will only allow you to port forward one device to port 80. So what should I be doing and how do you recommend setting this up?

HELP and thanks in advance to anyone that replies.......

Scott

 

[linkmaster]

Don't take this as gospel , but have you tried 'port triggering' instead?

 

[john9527]

Take a read starting with this post.....basically the game console manufacturers are 'less than intelligent' when it comes to giving direction on forwarding ports......don't do anything with ports 80 and 53.
http://www.snbforums.com/threads/dmz-not-working-for-ps4.27286/#post-207511

For the typical home user, just enable UPNP, make sure you have taken the basic security measures (don't allow access to the router from the WAN unless you really need it and then only with good passwords/keys) and enjoy your gaming.

 

[martinr]

For anyone like me, unfamiliar with UPNP, and for whom the wiki page is incomprehensible, I found a helpful basic starting point in a FAQs page at:

http://www.upnp-hacks.org/faq.html

Bear in mind it was written in 2009, and the usual caveats for anything you find on the Internet apply.

 

[RMerlin]

Any "guide" that says to forward ports 80 and 53 was written by an idiot. Ignore it.

 

[takitezsdc]

Thanks very much for the replies. GO look at Portforward.com THEY recommend and even have the ASUS RT68U step by step directions that say you should port forward 80 and 53. Look at the XBOX for example. Check the link out and scroll down half way you will see..........AND this is common on there page for a lot of there devices and game guides. No wonder so many people have problems with their internet connections. lol

So are you all saying that I should not even have my DVR for my vid cams forwarding on port 80? Again the guide to set up the DVR suggests to use port 80 and forward it to the DVR IP address. I am so confused, Why would they say this?

Thanks again.........

http://portforward.com/english/routers/port_forwarding/Asus/RT-AC68U/Xbox_Live_360.htm

 

[martinr]

. GO look at Portforward.com .....I am so confused, Why would they say this?

It doesn't answer your justified question, but RMerlin and ColinTaylor discussed this not long ago:

http://www.snbforums.com/posts/198171

 

[takitezsdc]

Ok well I am even more confused now. If ports 80 and 53 should not be forwarded THEN WHY would RMerlin firmware have the the " famous server list " that suggests that you should forward ports 80 and 53 as one of the options ? Would it not make sense to take out things of a custom firmware that might confuse the less tech savy user ? Or am I missing something ?

 

[RMerlin]

Ok well I am even more confused now. If ports 80 and 53 should not be forwarded THEN WHY would RMerlin firmware have the the " famous server list " that suggests that you should forward ports 80 and 53 as one of the options ? Would it not make sense to take out things of a custom firmware that might confuse the less tech savy user ? Or am I missing something ?

Because, as the name implies, this is for famous servers. You only forward port 80 if you host a web server. And you only forward port 53 if you host a DNS server.

Which has nothing to do with a game console, that does not host neither a web server, neither a DNS server.

Your camera might host a web server to allow for remote monitoring. But game consoles don't.

People writing those guides failed TCP/IP 101, and don't know the difference between forwarding, and opening.

 

[cofetym]

Will the real Xbox forwarding setup please stand up.
http://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-360/networking/network-ports-used-xbox-live
So! Is this definitely wrong?

Whomever has the time and is an avid Xbox player.
What settings, if your brave enough to share are you using?

http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Configuring_for_Xbox_360

 

[ColinTaylor]

What people always seem to miss in these guides is the bit that says UPnP is the preferred solution and port forwarding should only be used if you have a specific problem. Some people think that just by getting a different NAT type shown on their consoles somehow this will make their game faster or less laggy - it won't.

Also remember that certain games have different port requirements (but again these are sorted out with UPnP). Take a look at the Destiny FAQ for example: https://www.bungie.net/en/Help/Article/11931

In the above example it is tempting to just skip to the tables at the bottom without reading/understanding the rest of the article. Table 1 appears to say that TCP 53, 80 and 3074 need to be forwarded (as well as various UDP ports). This it not what it's saying! It says that the router should not actively block those incoming ports.***

Table 2 shows ports that may need to be forwarded (Xbox 360: TCP 3074 and UDP 88, 3074), but again read the text below that says (again), " If you have UPnP on and no other forwarding rules and the problem still occurs, or if your networking hardware/setup doesn’t support UPnP, ONLY THEN attempt to forward ports manually."

On a more practical note: I would definitely suggest that console owners that are considering port forwarding, first (with UPnP enabled) go into the game concerned and then look on the router (System Log > Port Forwarding) to see which ports are automatically forwarded. There's no point forwarding ports if they're already working.

UPDATE: Actually, thinking more about M$ use of external ports < 1024. We don't know whether they map them all 1:1 or how the session is established but it would seem likely that "UPNP: Allowed internal port range" would have to be changed on the router (WAN > Internet Connection) to 1 to 65535 for UPnP to work in all cases?

*** Side Note: Why the f**k did Microsoft think running games over ports 53 and 80 was a good idea! I can imagine the meeting now: "Which of the 65535 ports shall we use for our new games console guys?", "How about 53 and 80, they're not used for anything?", "Good idea. Now, about my idea for a Zune music player..."

 

[RMerlin]

*** Side Note: Why the f**k did Microsoft think running games over ports 53 and 80 was a good idea! I can imagine the meeting now: "Which of the 65535 ports shall we use for our new games console guys?", "How about 53 and 80, they're not used for anything?", "Good idea. Now, about my idea for a Zune music player..."

They don't...

Re-read that same FAQ. Port 80 and 53 need to be unblocked, for inbound traffic. What this means is you need to be able to receive traffic coming FROM these ports. So, your console needs to be able to receive traffic from a web site (so it can connect to web-based services), and from a DNS server (so it can do lookups). This is already the case for 99% of routers used in homes...

 

[ColinTaylor]

They don't...

Thanks RMerlin. That's what I had initially understood but had started to doubt myself.

What was confusing me was them using the term "incoming" and not specifying whether they were referring to the source or the destination. For example, a client connects to a web sever (port 80) by opening a random high-port (say 31000) on his PC. So as you point out, they mean traffic from port 80 on the remote server, not to port 80 (or 3100 for that matter) on our router.

 

[RMerlin]

Thanks RMerlin. That's what I had initially understood but had started to doubt myself.

What was confusing me was them using the term "incoming" and not specifying whether they were referring to the source or the destination. For example, a client connects to a web sever (port 80) by opening a random high-port (say 31000) on his PC. So as you point out, they mean traffic from port 80 on the remote server, not to port 80 (or 3100 for that matter) on our router.

Now you can understand how the average console player might be totally confused. I certainly don't blame the users for being so confused by all of this.

The only way they could have confused them even more would be if they had started referring to ingress and egress...

 

[cofetym]

This discussion helped me a great deal. Removed all the erroneous porting from my main router for the game consoles. Two Xbox 360's and one Xbox One that my kids use. All are working just fine. Moderate Nat error on one but still connected to Xbox live and a recommendation to open port 3074.

What about the"Famous Game List" for Xbox live or is UPNP all you need that is set on the router by default?

 

[ColinTaylor]

What about the"Famous Game List" for Xbox live or is UPNP all you need that is set on the router by default?

The "Famous Game" entry just creates a port forward rule for port 3074 to the specified client. UPnP should already have done that for you (assuming you are using the console). You can check this by looking on the router (System Log > Port Forwarding).

As previously discussed, UPnP is slightly more flexible than port forwarding. You can only forward a port to one device on your network at a time. With "Port Forwarding" you have to choose which device it is, if you want to use another device on that port you have to change it on the router. With UPnP, when the device starts up it dynamically forwards that port to itself. When the device shuts down it (should) release that port so something else can use it. This way multiple devices can use the same port, but not all at the same time.

I don't know how Xbox Live does it, but with the PlayStation Network there is a similar port that it uses (3478). If that port is in use the PS3/4 tells UPnP to use the next one up (3479). No need for manual forwarding. I have no issues using the PS3 and PS4 at the same time.

 

[RMerlin]

This discussion helped me a great deal. Removed all the erroneous porting from my main router for the game consoles. Two Xbox 360's and one Xbox One that my kids use. All are working just fine. Moderate Nat error on one but still connected to Xbox live and a recommendation to open port 3074.

Sorry for the side-tracked rants on our part This particular topic has come back quite often over time, and to some of us it's an annoyance to see how technical "guidance" websites can be so misleading, leaving those in-the-know to sort things out.

 

[cofetym]

Nice having good people on the forum, that don't mind repeating themselves. Thanks to all for taking the time to teach others.