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R7800 vs ER-4

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Mark070

Regular Contributor
Hey there,

I hope I have not already asked this question. In my quest to do separates I opted to retire my R7800 in place of an EdgeRouter 4.

I use an Orbi as an Access Point/Mesh, so the wifi on the R7800 would be turned off. I do have QoS turned on as well.

The question is .. did I waste money by buying an ER-4, when the R7800 would have been fine as a router (no wifi) with QoS? Thats pretty much all I use on a router is QoS (aside from DHCP etc)

Thanks
Mark
 
I might agree that you did! :)

Unless you can test with both, keep the one that works best and then sell/return the other for what you paid the for the ER-4. :)
 
I think you are moving in the right direction to separate network devices. Running cable is the next step and back bone your network on cable.

I run all Cisco separate network routers, wireless and switches. I run 2 Cisco WAP581 wireless APs for my house. The roaming is good.
 
Hey there,

I hope I have not already asked this question. In my quest to do separates I opted to retire my R7800 in place of an EdgeRouter 4.

I use an Orbi as an Access Point/Mesh, so the wifi on the R7800 would be turned off. I do have QoS turned on as well.

The question is .. did I waste money by buying an ER-4, when the R7800 would have been fine as a router (no wifi) with QoS? Thats pretty much all I use on a router is QoS (aside from DHCP etc)

Thanks
Mark
yes you will waste money, there are much better routers than the ER-4. the edgerouters are a gimmick, configurable routers with the same performance as current consumer routers only with better hardware acceleration support. There are much much better routers than the ER-4 like mikrotik, pfsense and others that can do so much more without performance penalties faced by edgerouters.

Consider your needs as well and remember that edgerouters hate QoS when it comes to performance. Pfsense however if using a x86 CPU will chew through QoS with a lot of performance (just dependent on your CPU) and better security too.

QoS is a major weakpoint of all edgerouters, their performance drops are big, many owners make an excuse like (oh i have gigabit internet, i dont need QoS) to justify owning one, well i own the ERPRO and mikrotik, and mikrotik is leagues ahead of ubiquiti in routers, the only difference is that you can install other things on edgerouters like a regular linux box. i still wouldnt recommend it if you need high performance QoS. You will find that ubiquiti never posts performance about their routers for QoS, in a way majorly misleading their customers. If the ER-4 maxes out your internet for QoS and has CPU to spare then it wont be a waste of money. I use a router for a lot more things than just QoS and DHCP, i use it to control my network, for instance being able to have proxy caches (consider setting up nginx proxy cache which works with many applications, even steam as you're also doing QoS), forcing the use of the router's DNS (chrome and mobiles have hardcoded DNS, its a good security measure but easily bypassed on the network)

Your router does more than just DHCP and QoS, it does DNS, it can act as a NTP server for your network, it can be a mini linux box (depends on router), it can be a basic NAS (dont recommend) but most important is the control you get to add features to your network, like if you want to run an IDS, IPS or even network firewall/AV.

So pick a router that fits your use case best. Mention your WAN speeds so that we can recommend a router that can do QoS at those speeds. I do know the CCR1036 from mikrotik with 10G ports has the CPU power to do QoS at line rate, beating the edgerouter with 8 10Gb/s ports in QoS performance at the same price. Some consumer routers have hardware acceleration for QoS but also limits your configurability of QoS. When you configure QoS in detail and properly, the results are much better, but if you need a plug and play solution, there are better consumer routers for that. If you have a decent skill for networking, consider pfsense as its not as hard to set up and understand as mikrotik.

the most performance out of the Edgerouter line series is 100Mb/s of software processing per core at 1.2Ghz. That means the old ERPRO will do QoS at 200Mb/s at best. 1 mikrotik CCR core at 1.2Ghz will do 500Mb/s of QoS. Despite both routers being based on similar architectures, mikrotik's edge in software gives it better performance.
 
@Mark070 - For your use-case, I would consider returning the ER-4, and just disabling wifi on the R7800, then flashing OpenWRT on the R7800 for maximum stability and to be able to run SQM QoS at up to ~500Mb/s aggregate. That's ~100Mb more than the ER-4 is capable of anyways.

For further purchases, it would pay to know more about the services you're looking to run, at whatever speeds you'd like to achieve.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I kind of figured when I purchased the ER-4 (about 5 months ago), that it would not make a *noticeable* difference on my network.

Basically, here is my setup at home:
200/10 mbps internet (could go higher but, no need for it)
Netgear CM600 Cable Modem
ActionTek MoCA adapters (allows me to run ethernet to every room in house - my backbone)

EdgeRouter 4
Simple Netgear 8 Port Switch
Orbi mesh (RBR20/RBS20) - one on each level - wired (via MoCA)
Synology 1515+ NAS

(future) A VM/Server for hosting Plex and development environments (I am a programmer by trade).

One of the reasons why I pretty much stopped using the R7800 was because, when downloading pictures in MMS messaging, I would often have to disconnect from the wifi and use 4G network, and then reconnect again, was kind of annoying. The Orbi does not do that, works great for wifi!

In addition, like @coxhaus mentioned, I wanted to run separates and piece it out. I wanted to start learning basic networking (ER-4 is pretty good for that) as well.

If my internet plan goes higher than (roughly 350 mbps) my cable modem wont being to handle the top speed. The CM600 is Docsis 3.0 (perfect for MoCA).

In the future, with regards to routers .. I would drop both the ER-4 and the R7800 and go with a pfSense solution. I struggle to find a good build for that tho.

Oh .. and .. don't beat me up too hard ... but, there are only two people in the house with ... maybe a dozen or so devices hooked up to the network at any given time. Router CPU spikes at 11%, normal operations is 1-2% in use.

Enjoy,
Mark
 
Another fun thing might be to run Untangle behind your ER-4. It will give you layer 7 firewall. Untangle can run in bridge mode behind a router. If you screw up your router is still connected. You can run Untangle as a router but I liked running it in transparent bridge behind my Cisco router. I did it for years way back when I ran a email server.
 
I dragged out the R7800, installed OpenWRT on it. Implemented my DHCP leases, Port Forwards, Custom DNS's., etc. I have not installed the SQM QoS package yet. I have to wait for a period of down time so I can swap out the ER 4 with this.

I am just not that good yet to figure out how to add the R7800 onto the router without IT becoming the router :)

OpenWRT sure is interesting, took me a bit of time to configure it (a lot of initial reading) and staring at the "luci" screens before it clicked. Good/fun way of learning this stuff. People are generally happy with OpenWRT? I have never used it before.
 
I dragged out the R7800, installed OpenWRT on it. Implemented my DHCP leases, Port Forwards, Custom DNS's., etc. I have not installed the SQM QoS package yet. I have to wait for a period of down time so I can swap out the ER 4 with this.

I am just not that good yet to figure out how to add the R7800 onto the router without IT becoming the router :)

OpenWRT sure is interesting, took me a bit of time to configure it (a lot of initial reading) and staring at the "luci" screens before it clicked. Good/fun way of learning this stuff. People are generally happy with OpenWRT? I have never used it before.

Use hnyman’s stable builds from the OpenWRT/LEDE forums, he has precompiled firmwares with a lot of the common packages already installed like SQM. As for SQM QoS make sure to select “Cake” then “Piece of Cake” subsetting not the Layered Cake.

As for pFsense since you mentioned some interest, you can get a cheap Intel/AMD based Qotom box or something similar with two or more Ethernet ports on Amazon and install on that. In some ways I find it easier to use than OpenWRT out of the box. Lawrence Systems has great videos on YouTube regarding install and setup. I really like the pFblocker package on it which is like piHole but more powerful. Make sure to use the 2.4.4 build not the newer 2.4.5 as there’s a CPU usage issue that seems to have been inherited from a change FreeBSD 11.3.




On a side note, if you really want to tinker with OpenWRT. Their site has pretty great documentation to the point I was able to put up my own build environment and compile my own firmware with relative ease for my R7800 even though I’m a novice. There’s even a GUI based selection menu in the build process that lets you add/remove packages/features ahead of compile.
 
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Installed SQM QoS on to OpenWRT for the R7800. I set the following Parameters:

Interface: eth0.2 (wan, wan6)
Download Speed: 230000
Upload Speed: 11000

Cake - Piece of cake; yielded the following:
Download speed: 136000 (119000 at worse)
Upload speed: 11000

fq_codel - simplest_tbf.qos; yielded the following:
Download speed: 208000
Upload Speed: 10850

The only thing I can think of is ... Cake is maxing out the CPU?
 
https://openwrt.org/docs/guide-user.../sqm#configuring_the_sqm_bufferbloat_packages

Go to the “Configuring SQM Bufferbloat Packages” part in that link. Did you set it up similarly?

Granted it’s been over a year since I last setup OWRT, I do recall higher speeds and lower latency with Piece of Cake vs FQ_Codel.

Additionally use “DSL Reports” speed test instead of Ookla as the former will actually show unloaded and loaded latency during download/upload to give you a better idea of bufferbloat.
 
Yes. I set it up like your link. I have attached some pictures showing the setup. I have fiddled with which interfaces Eth0 to WAN (eth0.2) and its basically the same. OpenWRT by default setup the VLANs (I am not particulary smart enough yet to know how to setup a VLan on my own).

EDIT: Turns out, that piece of cake, on some archi-textures, does not like to run "perfect". One of those Archi-textures is the R7800. I have to use the "TBF" one instead of the "HTB". There may be a setting that can be set in one of the config files ... but .. not there yet.

So if I use Cake - simplest_tbf.qos; and a value of 190000 for my download kbit speed, I get my 20 MB/s download speed with an A for BufferBloat (A+ for everything else).

Links:
https://forum.openwrt.org/t/help-with-bufferbloat-on-r7800-using-openwrt/35185/18

https://forum.openwrt.org/t/sqm-fin...ith-line-speed-in-18-06-netgear-r7800/18602/8
 

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That’s odd because I had an R7800 when I used OpenWRT with piece of cake. It’s usually the full fledged layered cake that’s seen as an issue on some architectures. I also mostly used hnyman’s OpenWRT builds other than the once or twice I did my own compiles, so maybe he had patches in there.

Whatever the case looks like you got BB under control so stick with what works.
 
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