Really disappointed with AiMesh, I switched to something else

[RMerlin]

Personally, I think 802.11r will be far more useful. I can see the usefulness of 802.11k or 802.11v when in a business network with multiple nodes and lots of clients, allowing to better spread the load. Not that useful in a typical home setup.

 

[Smokindog]

Personally, I think 802.11r will be far more useful. I can see the usefulness of 802.11k or 802.11v when in a business network with multiple nodes and lots of clients, allowing to better spread the load. Not that useful in a typical home setup.

I've got a router and 4 APs (sometimes 5 for the far yard in the nicer weather) and if you add up all the TVs, thermostats, AVRs, streaming boxes, laptops, phones, tablets, cameras, garage doors, outlets and other misc items I'll bet I have about 75 potential wireless clients in the house plus all the wired devices so it can begin to look more like a small office.

 

[thiggins]

Personally, I think 802.11r will be far more useful.

For home use in particular, it's the least useful. It's focused on sub-second roaming, mainly by using pre-authentication (oversimplification).

11k and v are of more practical use, IF STAs use the information and roaming directions they provide.

In the end, the STA makes the decision.
https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-features/33195-wi-fi-roaming-secrets-revealed

The biggest mistake people make with mesh and. multi-AP systems is having too much overlap between APs/nodes. If a STA doesn't hit the roam-trigger RSSI, it won't roam. If there are multiple APs with similar signal levels in range, the STA may bounce between them.

I don't know of any consumer mesh systems that automatically adjust transmit power levels.

 

[RMerlin]

For home use in particular, it's the least useful. It's focused on sub-second roaming, mainly by using pre-authentication

I was thinking about people moving around with their cell phone for example, some of which might be using Wifi-calling. I've seen a few complain about that with the current home mesh solutions like Orbi or Lyra.

11k and v are of more practical use, IF STAs use the information and roaming directions they provide.

Unless I misunderstood Wikipedia, I thought these two were more about capacity information, allowing clients to be moved to another AP if one already had too many clients - which would indicate having lots of busy clients, and having sufficient coverage overlap to make it practical?

 

[Val D.]

The biggest mistake people make with mesh and. multi-AP systems is having too much overlap between APs/nodes.

And this also is a result of false advertising. Big players around offer "home mesh in a box" and just sell a lot promising "exceptional speeds and coverage". I see regularly apartments with WiFi pods plugged in power outlets few meters away. People say the technicians installed it this way. They just don't care, the goal is to sell. One extra pod in the box - let's not disappoint the customer and plug it in!

 

[Smokindog]

The biggest mistake people make with mesh and. multi-AP systems is having too much overlap between APs/nodes. If a STA doesn't hit the roam-trigger RSSI, it won't roam. If there are multiple APs with similar signal levels in range, the STA may bounce between them.

Give that man a kewpee doll.

THIS is what I've been stressing both above and in other threads/venues. Plus AiMesh by design makes things worse. All radios set to the same frequencies and if using wireless backhaul they must be close enough together for the connection to perform at or near optimal rates.

It's why I tell folks that a wired and/or dedicated backhaul radio/network is a must for a successful mesh deployment. It's why I use AP mode with wired backhaul with the 2 radio routers and manually set the frequencies and power. It's also a reason why a single SSID is the "best practice" deployment.

That said, the majority of home users only care that they can get a "reasonably usable" wireless signal in "dark zones" so a repeater/bridge wrapped in a GUI is a marvel for their needs.

As to "false advertising", "exceptional speeds and coverage" is about as subjective a statement as you can make. Like "best in class" or other such terms, EVERYONE in EVERY industry does it. Caveat Emptor.

 

[RMerlin]

It's why I tell folks that a wired and/or dedicated backhaul radio/network is a must for a successful mesh deployment.

If it's wired, then it's no longer a mesh - it's just a bunch of APs.

The idea behind a mesh is that you have multiple nodes talking to one another over wifi, not necessarily in a star-shaped network but potentially daisy-chained, or some other form of network. Like a fishing net.

When you start plugging these with Ethernet backhauls, then it just becomes a managed AP infrastructure.

 

[Smokindog]

If it's wired, then it's no longer a mesh - it's just a bunch of APs.

The idea behind a mesh is that you have multiple nodes talking to one another over wifi, not necessarily in a star-shaped network but potentially daisy-chained, or some other form of network. Like a fishing net.

When you start plugging these with Ethernet backhauls, then it just becomes a managed AP infrastructure.

THAT is just not true. MESH is a topology, not a technology.

And if you want to go down this rabbit hole, very few products are implementing a mesh as a mesh typically implies one OR MORE paths (typically 2 minimum) for routing and best path/neighbor selection in near real time. What is being sold as mesh is a star or hybrid star with bridging.

 

[thiggins]

I was thinking about people moving around with their cell phone for example, some of which might be using Wifi-calling. I've seen a few complain about that with the current home mesh solutions like Orbi or Lyra.

VoIP and Wi-Fi calling are definitely targets for 11r. The problem is that it really requires 802.1x to achieve fastest transitions. 11r is also supposed to support PSK authentication, but it may not be actually implemented on AP and/or STA.

The problem most people have with roaming is that their STAs don't roam at all or are very slow (double-digit seconds) to change. This is due to STA algorithms, not delays due to authentication.

Unless I misunderstood Wikipedia, I thought these two were more about capacity information, allowing clients to be moved to another AP if one already had too many clients - which would indicate having lots of busy clients, and having sufficient coverage overlap to make it practical?

You should read my article
Among other things, 11k lets APs request information on signal levels and link rates from STAs and makes it available to STAs to aid in roaming decisions. 11v also provides info, but includes a transition management request function. This is a more polite way of asking a STA to move vs. deauthentication.

In other words for 11r to help, a STA has to make intelligent and fast (under 5 seconds) roaming decisions in the first place.

 

[thiggins]

THAT is just not true. MESH is a topology, not a technology.

IEEE 802.11s defined wireless mesh networks, which are based on ad hoc wireless links.

In my experience, "mesh" connotes wireless backhaul, not wired.

Maybe that's why consumer marketeers switched to using the more neutral "Wi-Fi System" to describe multi AP systems.

At any rate, backhaul bandwidth matters in any multi-node AP system, no matter what you call it and it's tough for any wireless technology to beat Ethernet for bandwidth and reliability.

 

[Smokindog]

VoIP and Wi-Fi calling are definitely targets for 11r. The problem is that it really requires 802.1x to achieve fastest transitions. 11r is also supposed to support PSK authentication, but it may not be actually implemented on AP and/or STA.

The problem most people have with roaming is that their STAs don't roam at all or are very slow (double-digit seconds) to change. This is due to STA algorithms, not delays due to authentication.

You should read my article
Among other things, 11k lets APs request information on signal levels and link rates from STAs and makes it available to STAs to aid in roaming decisions. 11v also provides info, but includes a transition management request function. This is a more polite way of asking a STA to move vs. deauthentication.

In other words for 11r to help, a STA has to make intelligent and fast (under 5 seconds) roaming decisions in the first place.

IMO it still all boils down to that client is always the most important piece in the roaming equation AND you'll always see discrepancy in interpretation and implementation at the node device in consumer grade products. It's expensive to actually test and "certify" these technologies and given the low dependence of the consumer it will never be a cost effective priority. It will improve over time and the benefits will seep into the ecosystem but it will never be much more than a marketeering lead in the consumer/SOHO device market.

Do not misread that as I disagree with what you're pointing out!!!!

 

[Smokindog]

IEEE 802.11s defined wireless mesh networks, which are based on ad hoc wireless links.

In my experience, "mesh" connotes wireless backhaul, not wired.

Maybe that's why consumer marketeers switched to using the more neutral "Wi-Fi System" to describe multi AP systems.

At any rate, backhaul bandwidth matters in any multi-node AP system, no matter what you call it and it's tough for any wireless technology to beat Ethernet for bandwidth and reliability.

Correct but I never said wireless mesh and neither did others. They said MESH and they also said you can't have a mesh with wires.

I began building product for and deigning mesh networks in the 70's. There is probably still more mesh network deployed on wires than not, even in the cellular world, but I've been retired for a number of years and haven't seen any figures lately. If it's changed it's because point to point wireless has taken the role of the wire in the backhaul.

 

[maxbraketorque]

Asus added 802.11k and 802.11v support a few months ago. There is also a new option for 802.11r, but I don't see it enabled yet.

I've been curious about the level of implementation of k and v since the time you mentioned it a few weeks or a month ago in some other place on the forum, but I hadn't bothered to see if client switching between my main AP (router) and satellite AP (not AiMesh) had improved. I tried today, and it turns out that switching appears to have significantly improved. Now my MacBookPro, my Galaxy Note 8, and my wife's W10 laptop all readily switch to the AP with the stronger signal when there is a reasonable difference in signal strength between the two APs. I used to need to have Roaming Assistant enabled, but its no longer needed. Kinda cool. As for my wife's W10 laptop, the auto setting for Roaming tendency will have the computer stick with an AP until the signal strength drops below something like -82 dBm. Setting the Roaming tendency to "Bandwidth optimized" causes switching at something closer to -65 to -70 dBm which is much better.

 

[Smokindog]

I've been curious about the level of implementation of k and v since the time you mentioned it a few weeks or a month ago in some other place on the forum, but I hadn't bothered to see if client switching between my main AP (router) and satellite AP (not AiMesh) had improved. I tried today, and it turns out that switching appears to have significantly improved. Now my MacBookPro, my Galaxy Note 8, and my wife's W10 laptop all readily switch to the AP with the stronger signal when there is a reasonable difference in signal strength between the two APs. I used to need to have Roaming Assistant enabled, but its no longer needed. Kinda cool. As for my wife's W10 laptop, the auto setting for Roaming tendency will have the computer stick with an AP until the signal strength drops below something like -82 dBm. Setting the Roaming tendency to "Bandwidth optimized" causes switching at something closer to -65 to -70 dBm which is much better.

On the W10 device, look in the advanced NIC settings to see if it supports "Roaming Aggressiveness" or a similarly named feature. IIRC there will be 4-5 levels if supported.

There may also be a "Preferred Band" setting to select 5 v 2.4 spectrum and other RF management features such a "Channel Width". I personally find that setting these to more limited values (i.e. 20MHz channel limit) improves stability and overall performance. I rarely need the "highest possible bandwidth" on my portable devices and gladly trade these things for stability. As always, this advice is worth what you paid!

 

[Val D.]

IIRC there will be 4-5 levels if supported.

Correct. Driver dependent, not always available.
I'm looking at Intel Wireless-AC 7260 with whatever driver W10 installed:

1. Lowest
2. Medium-low
3. Medium
4. Medium-high
5. Highest

 

[maxbraketorque]

On the W10 device, look in the advanced NIC settings to see if it supports "Roaming Aggressiveness" or a similarly named feature. IIRC there will be 4-5 levels if supported.

There may also be a "Preferred Band" setting to select 5 v 2.4 spectrum and other RF management features such a "Channel Width". I personally find that setting these to more limited values (i.e. 20MHz channel limit) improves stability and overall performance. I rarely need the "highest possible bandwidth" on my portable devices and gladly trade these things for stability. As always, this advice is worth what you paid!

Thanks. Adjusting the Roaming Tendency option allowed for my wife's W10 laptop to hop to the better AP at the appropriate signal strength difference. I know this isn't related to AiMesh, but with the apparent support of k and v, it seems like the AP implementation works quite well now, at least for the devices that I've tried.

 

[OzarkEdge]

Thanks. Adjusting the Roaming Tendency option allowed for my wife's W10 laptop to hop to the better AP at the appropriate signal strength difference. I know this isn't related to AiMesh, but with the apparent support of k and v, it seems like the AP implementation works quite well now, at least for the devices that I've tried.

Which Roaming Tendency option did you select?

OE

 

[maxbraketorque]

Which Roaming Tendency option did you select?

OE

For the Broadcom NIC and driver on my wife's W10 laptop, the available options were auto, default, max range, and max bandwidth. I found a thread somewhere that says "default" will cause the STA to move to a different AP when signal strength to the joined AP drops below -75 dBm (and there is another available AP with signal strength better than -75 dBm). Max range will switch at -82 dBm, and max bandwidth will switch at -65 dBm. Nothing was said about what auto does, but my wife's laptop was initially set to auto, and it wouldn't switch until signal strength dropped below -82 dBm. -65 dBm (max bandwidth) worked best for the distance between my APs.

 

[quadra2030]

macOS has similar treshold for 5GHz band selection -68 dBm..

 

[joltdude]

Im taking a guess but i think some of these extensions might help with places that need multiple APs due to metal lathe in the walls... its a fine line setting the roaming with just the slightest overlap using roaming assistant...