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setting up wifi network for a church

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dan_88

New Around Here
Hi all,

Our church has wifi, but it's always been somewhat unreliable - and we're finding ourselves needing it more and more... especially for mission-critical functions during the Sunday service.

I've offered to research and build a wireless network, but I have to confess it's not my primary area of expertise. I understand some things about networking, but I'm not skilled. Could anyone start me in the right direction?

Here are some of the salient points:

  • We would like two networks: one for guest access and one for staff access, both with passwords.
  • The guest access network would be mostly unused throughout the week, but would need to accomodate a lot more traffic on Sunday. Average Sunday attendance is 650 (obviously not all these people are on wifi).
  • Our church is two floors, with a total floor space of about 30,000 square feet.

I'd appreciate any help anyone could give. I'm looking to learn. Thanks! :cool:

Dan
 
This isnt the first wifi for church problem, search a bit on snb and you will find other threads about this and their solutions too. your problem is quite similar or is probably the same.

budget wise only works on a budget that is if you need few APs, if you really need wifi density (not coverage) to handle several hundred people all in the same room there are APs that can do that.

Can you explain what you mean by unreliable wifi? Is it the coverage? Speed? Disconnects?

I know some cheap hackish solutions that can work similar to smart connect but using software and making some frankenstein AP but it is cheaper than buying an AC5300 if wifi density is needed. If it is coverage you need and you want seamless wifi between them than you're looking at non consumer APs and features such as zero handoff. If all you need is coverage than even consumer APs can be used but the placement is critical. For your inexpensive frankenstein AP you are looking at boxes with multiple mini PCIe slots. Some enthusiastic uncommon routers have it, developer boards, some mikrotik routerboard APs, x86 (both usb, PCIe and mini PCIe). Using this solution with software balancing can help to get as many wifi channels on the 5Ghz you want to use to accommodate all the traffic. For such heavy environments i suggest that at least 30% of your wifi bandwidth be your internet speed. So if you have 100Mb/s internet than your wifi needs to be faster than 300Mb/s. Remember that slower clients slow down faster ones but a frankenstein AP will have many radios so you can dedicated on the 5Ghz radios to specific protocols instead on a different channel to avoid interference. You may need more wifi bandwidth if your wifi during busy times is loaded with LAN file transfers (such as audio, video, etc from LAN).

Some APs like the netgear R7000 and mikrotik routerboard APs have been known to handle several hundred clients on a single radio and still work despite being slow with that many clients all fighting for limited bandwidth.

The other thing for speed during busy times would be QoS both at the router and at the AP. Ive seen ASUS routers having priority QoS for LAN that can be applied to both wired and wifi. Mikrotik also has the same feature too just more complicated. Other non consumer brands could also have the same thing.

Remember that it is only in the main room that has to accommodate many people. a 5Ghz AP will work very well there because it is just empty space, no blockage to line of sight. Everywhere else can use cheaper APs as theres not much traffic there needed. For coverage it can help to get a laptop and an AP, and maybe a portable battery if there arent plugs everywhere to find the best spot to mount wifi APs for coverage. For your main room the placement would be obvious.

Aside from frankenstein AP, you can use multiple APs in the main room to do the same thing but they would require some features to load balance clients between them.
 
Hi all,

Our church has wifi, but it's always been somewhat unreliable - and we're finding ourselves needing it more and more... especially for mission-critical functions during the Sunday service.

I've offered to research and build a wireless network, but I have to confess it's not my primary area of expertise. I understand some things about networking, but I'm not skilled. Could anyone start me in the right direction?

Here are some of the salient points:

  • We would like two networks: one for guest access and one for staff access, both with passwords.
  • The guest access network would be mostly unused throughout the week, but would need to accomodate a lot more traffic on Sunday. Average Sunday attendance is 650 (obviously not all these people are on wifi).
  • Our church is two floors, with a total floor space of about 30,000 square feet.

I'd appreciate any help anyone could give. I'm looking to learn. Thanks! :cool:

Dan

That is a huge, huge area (effectively 15,000 SqFt area if both floors are same sized).

Unless you want the congregation to actively not like you, find them a professional installer for such a major job. You can offer your services for the labor intensive parts of the install (running cables, power, mounting AP's as needed), but the design, implementation and testing should be done by someone who not only knows what they're tackling, but also someone who can guarantee the finished network will be fit for purpose.

You can learn a lot from the forums here. But if the church needs WiFi to evenly cover the area(s) you indicate, you won't be able to absorb and apply it quickly enough to do them much good in a reasonable time frame. Not only will you be exhausted, they will become frustrated too as new information you learn will force changes almost constantly over the project's time span.

With up to 650 devices needing connectivity and security/isolation (and probably sooner than you may guess), this is not a project to do in your spare time.

Use your (donated) time effectively; get as many quotes from as many vendors as possible with as much details and a minimum quality of service expected (now and into the near future) and then propose the best choice to your church. Again; help where you can with the physical labor part (and get other volunteers too). But research, design the network (with an emphasis on future growth at least cost), and then implement while choosing the best equipment available today for a project so large? Unless you are changing careers and the time you take and the information you learn will be used far into the future, just say no to what you have initially offered them.
 
Regarding L&D's suggestion im not sure if it applies where you are but being a church could allow you to get service cheaper as they would not have to include the usual sales/VAT tax. The other benefit is that you could also purchase hardware without having to pay such tax as well so if you go for non consumer vendors they usually have the untaxed price which tends to be cheaper than the market price(it can be significant). In the EU one of the vendors i know charges almost double on amazon than on their website (tax over here is 20%).

My suggestion would be to focus your wifi on indoors. Inside a single wifi AP within line of sight of nothing blocking it has a very good range. Im not sure what kind of configuration your church has but you could always post a picture of the main area where you have 600 people that require wifi, it would help us know the scale of your problem better. Indoor wifi is cheaper than outdoor but can have its own complication such as coverage with multiple APs, switching between them, etc.

Consider 2nd hand hardware as well. Is the main room 30K square feet or is it the entire church building? Or is it the entire church land? I converted it into meters and it is 2787m square however after applying square root this can translate to a measurements of above 50M per side if its a square. Perhaps a picture could really help us understand better. Although churches are rectangular at the base usually APs are designed to operate up to 100m indoors for the good ones and the main hall where many come for prayer is a big room that is usually 2 or more stories high. i doubt the church is 3meters by 1Km.

If you have 2 laptops available you can use one as an AP as a simple signal test. APs have much better wifi signals than using a laptop as an AP but this is to find the spots in which a wifi AP would cover best with the least resistance and the least number of APs.

the problem may not be as bad as you think, i just think the big numbers are scaring people.
 
SEM,

you do have good points. But I'm not scared of the 'big numbers'. Just a realist. ;)
 
This isnt the first wifi for church problem, search a bit on snb and you will find other threads about this and their solutions too. your problem is quite similar or is probably the same.

For the how - best left to a local professional that understands wireless - too expensive to DIY...

For the Why - does the pastor really need folks check their twitter/facebook in a middle of a sermon - kind of removes the purpose if you ask me.

My $0.02 opinion here...
 
For the Why

Don't get me wrong - but services and church/temple/shrine/mosque - this is an immediate and interpersonal relationship... with the community of fellow members

No need for internet stuff there, IMHO... it can wait until they get home - and as a backstop, if folks must, there's always 3g...
 
I was going to say that having good wifi would be a distraction but than i remembered what about those that come early or while waiting? One of the things the church could do is turn off guest wifi during prayer times. If someone has a tablet why shouldnt they be able to load the prayer books onto their tablets and use that?

Some things you can DIY some things you cant. If you need seamless wifi using multiple APs you're better off with a professional. If you want to provide stable wifi, even though it may not be particularly fast (say a few Mb/s per user) that you can DIY. Besides by learning some about networking you can maintain the network yourself if something goes wrong rather than always calling someone.

Its not that bad of a problem because being a religious institution you can put up a notice to ask for volunteers who would be willing to help who work in this area. You could ask people to donate (or willing to buy) 2nd hand hardware if you are willing to go the 3rd party firmware route.

Dont try to be complicated, use simple methods. Its only a few hours for 1 day of the week that wifi and network need to handle many users. You can use simple methods such as have seperate SSIDs for 5Ghz and 2.4Ghz. Some routers can disconnect clients if their signal is below a set threshold. Modify the professional settings too so its not super fast but rather stable and reasonable speed. Remember this isnt an office where you want to handle 600 people, theres only a few staff and many guests.

Ofcourse if a religious institution had good wifi it would encourage people to come even on other days too. It seems like SNB is providing both parenting and religious advice other than technical.

My suggestion is that you can DIY for the basic tasks but the advanced config part you should ask someone to help. The advanced wifi part to provide reliable wifi, the security and QoS (such as blocking certain applications like torrents on the guest network) should be done by someone who has experience/skill in that area.

Im not good at suggesting models but many here can give you a list of wifi APs/routers that could work well for your church. Just remember that non consumer wifi APs have controller software to easily manage many and some good stuff that helps with switching between APs but they tend to also be more expensive than what you could scrounge up from the 2nd hand market which would be adequate. You can also ask us of a particular model would perform well in your environment.
 
To get started we really need to know a bit more about your network. There are a lot of variables when you are trying to figure out something that size. A few things to think about:

- As other people said, what are the problems? We need a bit more detail to troubleshoot what is going on.
- What is the age of the building? Churches tend to be older and a lot of the materials are going to affect how you want to place things.
- What does the overall network layout look like? You can improve the performance of your wireless network, but it still depends on a competent wired network on the back end to perform at its best.
- A lot of churches prefer to do content filtering, so you might want to investigate hardware that will do that for you.
- 650 is a decent sized turnout. There may be somebody else out there with some experience. Don't be afraid to ask for help.
- You will be surprised how quickly people will start to use WiFi once it gets better. Once people start to hear the Wireless in the church is working better, they will start using it in new ways. Plan for excess capacity.

good luck!
 
Hey @dan_88

Just a friendly FYI; you will get a more objective response if you try to wipe any mention of church/religion from your inquiry and focus on sharing exclusively information that may impact WiFi.

Religion is one of the most polarizing topics, and does not have a known impact on WiFi. Well, maybe... I hear Scientology has great WiFi... coincidence? ;)
but seriously, only share data that you are willing to be criticised about.
 
Guys you're forgetting something. By coming here he is asking us for help so we shouldnt chase him off to ask others for help. As i said before he should post an ad at his church for skilled help for the physical part of the help we cant provide from here.
 
Guys you're forgetting something. By coming here he is asking us for help so we shouldnt chase him off to ask others for help. As i said before he should post an ad at his church for skilled help for the physical part of the help we cant provide from here.

The thread seems to be mostly constructive responses, so I wouldn't say we are "chasing him off".


Considering the square footage and "mission-critical" requirements (multi-WAN?), the only real solution is to hire a professional. I think your idea to ask the congregation for help or referrals is a good start, but I would discourage hiring anything but a true professional... no hobbyists or amateurs.
 
Agree with Nullity. No one is chasing people away.

But with the information supplied, we are giving a suggestion for the best way forward.

This is not a 'diy' type of project. Real money and time will be involved now and indefinitely into the future.
 
i think i may over estimate people's ability to learn networking like me. I guess not everyone can take an enterprise router and start figuring it out. I imagined the task would be very easy but other than the router to configure QoS and security i imagine it is very easy to actually learn all the advance stuff in the wireless configuration section and tweaking/calculating the settings. Just as i calculated that we are talking about approximately up to 100m maximum distance for wifi for the main prayer hall. Essentially wifi in omni configuration in consumer gear is designed for up to 100m range (you can imagine radius for the area you need to cover. Hence dont imagine it as area, rather take the measurements of each dimention seperately to give the actual requirements. This means that it is possible for 1 AP actually handle the entire hall.

If the church is run on donations go with spending extra effort on the advanced wireless configuration. If the church is state funded than go help yourself to some non consumer wifi APs that offer seamless roaming.

The way i see this situation solved is with
1) calculate based on a 50m radius the coverage needed and your internet throughput
2) finding out which devices have crappy hardware/ firmware.
3) replacing the firmwares/hardwares
4) obtain additional units if there is none available to handle the required throughput from many clients. This could mean building an AP with many radios or getting one.
5)configure everything using simple ways such as seperate SSIDs like church-5G but keep all SSIDs for some seamless roaming, and the advanced wireless part for stability and good battery, adjusting the values as needed and enabling/disabling features for high traffic but stable (we dont need performance).

A few facts to take into account. Many APs use hardware to handle client, this means that the AP will handle a limited number of clients before it starts having problems. Ubiquiti APs are like this. Some APs use software to handle clients, the load is put onto the main CPU and RAM so they handle as many clients as there is CPU and RAM. The netgear R7000, mikrotik routerboards and x86 based APs are like this.

ISPs statistically noted (this was a decade ago) that with consumer expect 30% bandwidth utilisation average. This is to say that out of 650 people about more than 200 would be using it at a time. This may not be accurate but this means that you should aim for to handle at least 300 at the moment but if you want to future proof it i would suggest aiming for 500 unless there is some gruel waiting Unless the church entirely goes digital meaning digital bibles the statistic would hold. If the material were digital than you would want your network to handle the maximum capacity that your church can handle so if the maximum capacity is 1000 people (this is to say the church gets simple upgrades such as more benches for more people).

When you need someone professional is for LAN QoS, and at the router. If you're using non consumer routers you should also get professional help, not everyone is like me being able to just figure something like this out. So you definitely need a professional but not for your basic wifi network, you need it for your network as wifi is only there to provide connectivity, as long as wifi doesnt disconnect or hang than the other part is how well your network handles the load.
 
SEM, I don't think you're overestimating anyone's ability to learn. But you are missing a few key points here.

First, is that this network will not be designed, created and implemented as easy as you think. You, I and a few others may know a few key hardware that is needed to put such a network together and make it work, but Dan here is not in that atmosphere by his own admission. Not only does Dan have no inkling of the required hardware and it's relative performance, capabilities and limitations at this scale, but I'm also quite positive that even with that information, he would still be challenged to bring it together into a cohesive, stable and secure network system. (Dan, please correct me if I'm wrong here. I'm not belittling your knowledge, just trying to read into your first post to help as best as I can).

Secondly, in any large organization (like the church here in question) that implements a technology like WiFi, even if just 50 people were using it initially, in a very short time period (less than a year) it will be closer to 50 people that do not use it at all. Planning for 30% to 50% of usage is very shortsighted in my estimation and experience.

Still, that doesn't mean we need to deliver a network today that can handle 650+ devices. What that means is that we design and build the network in such a way that the ability to handle more devices as needed is as straightforward as possible and at the lowest cost too.

Getting volunteers with Dan guiding them to run CAT5e cable (or higher), to appropriate locations throughput the premises, following a good network and WiFi design (from a professional) that takes the above points into account is the best use of volunteers here. Including Dan's own time and efforts.

Choosing which particular hardware to buy is also for a person with experience in not only the hardware, but also for taking into consideration all the details and requirements that the church will need now and forward. This is why this should be done with quotes from 'all' pro's working in his area. The true network pro's will quickly rise to the top, especially when contrasted and compared against the less than stellar ones (Dan will get some good knowledge just by acquiring these quotes in an organized and systematic manner).

Finally, with the design in place, the hardware chosen and the current level of service and quality determined (in addition to the future growth of the network as needed taken into account), Dan may then be at a place to implement the network with some additional learning and coaching from forums such as ours. I still think that the vendor who won the project should finish it though (the network performance should be tied to the notion that the job is 'complete and finished' and ready to be paid for).

One important aspect of volunteer type organizations is that any one individual is around for a relatively short time. Even if Dan acquired all the information he needed to design, implement and physically create the network by himself for the level the church requires today, that work will all be for nought (most likely) when he is no longer available to volunteer and the network requirements change for the church. Going with a professional, with a network design that is blueprinted and a company that will be around for (hopefully) decades, is the best way forward for most non-profits. Even if the initial costs are higher than a purely volunteer driven (hardware only costs) approach.

Some of my initial thoughts on this network are:

1) If the congregation did all need WiFi access consecutively; that could be 10 to 20 AP's in a relatively small area.

2) If multiple large areas like the above are part of the church's design, another 10 to 20 AP's would be needed for each such area too (think Church, main hall, gymnasium, lower hall, etc.).

3) The above is 'in addition' to the AP's needed to adequately cover the rest of the 30,000 SqFt premises.

4) Guest WiFi access is more than likely needed and required everywhere on the premises.

5) Staff WiFi access is probably not needed as broadly, but it depends on how the church is run (details matter).

6) Running LAN cables and power lines as needed will be the most labor intensive part, especially if these cable runs are tested and verified. Final configuration and optimization of the network will be a close tie for the labor costs.

7) A secure (no windows), cool and central room to run all cables to is also needed (I never recommend this to be in the basement, for flooding reasons, unless all equipment (and AC power plugs) are at least 4 feet off the floor/ground).

8) With all network equipment (from the ISP's modem to the switches, routers, AP's and NAS' used), make sure you have a good quality UPS hooked up as needed for all of them.

9) Get all quotes in writing. Including minimum network levels of performance guarantees.

10) Consider having at least one or two (or more) 'extra' units of each type (AP, switch and if critical (for the Staff network), even an extra router too) on hand that can be switched out for a failed unit quickly. You'll be surprised how fast models are no longer available and require a major change in the network (at a far higher cost than having a spare handy).


Dan, more than anything else, I would not recommend any hardware that requires an annual fee just to use. Nor would I recommend anything that was cloud based either. ;)

Another option to avoid? The new 'mesh' network type hardware. It may work as advertised for a few nodes and a few users/devices. But, I think the performance will buckle under it's own weight (internal radio admin overhead) when the loads you are likely to see at your church reach a certain (low) level.
 
Don't get me wrong - but services and church/temple/shrine/mosque - this is an immediate and interpersonal relationship... with the community of fellow members

No need for internet stuff there, IMHO... it can wait until they get home - and as a backstop, if folks must, there's always 3g...
What I don't get is everyone who has a smartphone has internet included these days with their phone plan. Why would anyone have the need for wi fi in a church is beyond me.
Isn't a church a place where people go to pray against evil things like facebook?
:p
 
Having Wifi in the venue is not a bad idea, but it would be for the purposes of the staff, not the guests.... and there the needs wouldn't be so high. That would fit similar requirements as a small business, including security and capacity.

(thinking projectors, cameras, etc as part of the services, plus the day to day stuff that the staff needs to handle the administrative side).
 
Having Wifi in the venue is not a bad idea, but it would be for the purposes of the staff, not the guests.... and there the needs wouldn't be so high. That would fit similar requirements as a small business, including security and capacity.

(thinking projectors, cameras, etc as part of the services, plus the day to day stuff that the staff needs to handle the administrative side).
I totally agree with you. From the looks of it the wi fi was for the guests.
 
So getting back to the original post - if one removes the Guest Network requirement, then this is similar to any small business network - and that's a simpler problem to solve, build, and maintain.

It's the Guest access for 600 seats requirement that make it a much tougher problem to solve - typical rule of thumb is max of 50 seats per AP, and with that many AP's, one probably would have to go to a business/enterprise class wireless network controller and associated gear - which escalates the cost/complexity factors by a significant amount.

It's not impossible, and a similar use case to that of colleges where they want to light up a large auditorium - but they also usually have an experienced full-time network staff to maintain it.

There's some good advice further up in the thread.
 
L&LD has a good reply above.....good for the OP to read and re-read that.

To tackle a project like this...there's a lot of thought and design going into this, also making sure you have the equipment, and all related services, that can handle this load. It's not just a matter of plopping in a bunch of wireless APs and hoping some residential grade router at the edge of the network can handle the load of several hundred wireless clients! You need a good, solid, and fast....edge router. One that is fast with DNS requests. Once you start getting so many clients connected...it's not always the bandwidth (or lack of) that slows things down, it's having a device at the edge fast enough to handle all of the DNS requests.

You want good QoS in the edge device also.

Site survey, walk around. As you walk around..envision how you'll setup the network runs, where you'll locate the switches. Will you have to spread out several switches around the building, uplink them via fiber, have a top of the rack (TOR) switch to uplink the other switches into.

This many APs probably want to have POE switches. Instead of a buncha POE injector dongles hanging off switches.

Area of higher density (and lower transmit power) APs...and areas where few, more L/R models will suffice.

Centrally managed APs would be where I'd go.

Just finished configuring a large setup this morning for a project, did an all Ubiquiti setup. From their larger 750 watt EdgeSwitches...to POE all the APs 'n cameras, to AC outdoor APs, AC indoor APs, their new Gen3 cameras, NVR for the cameras.

Will the internet pipe be able to handle this?

I'd want a UTM at the edge...something that does good content filtering. Probably Sunday school at the church..so it helps with CIPA compliance.

A good UTM will allow you to segment out guest VLANs...even if the wireless setup has a "guest mode"...which basically soft vlans each wireless client..putting them on a separate ethernet interface on the UTM...on a separate IP subnet..is a good idea. And you can bandwidth throttle the guest VLAN.
 

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