Spectrum EU2251 Modem and voice effected by MoCA?

[krkaufman]

If the modem is DOCCIS3.1 or higher. you would have to have moca modems that can be configured to use only the D-High bands.

Not the case. As stated many posts back (post #3 in the thread), and as many others have had to do with the same modem handed out by Spectrum, just install a MoCA filter (ideally a 70 dB model) directly on the modem, as a prophylactic.

And as the linked “encroachment” comment in the earlier reply notes, if/when DOCSIS 3.1 frequencies above 1002 MHz actually start being used, the ISP/modem feed will need to be isolated from the MoCA-infused coax.

 

[krkaufman]

am therefore looking at MoCA (which is why this conversation started).

but for now the issue is whether a MoCA setup would affect or be affected by the voice/phone functionality of the setup

This was answered in post #3. The phone service is delivered via the cited modem, so it’s just a question of MoCA compatibility with the modem. And I’m fairly certain that the modem cited will be destabilized by the presence of MoCA signals; so, the modem needs a “prophylactic” MoCA filter to protect it from MoCA signals.

Otherwise, it’s a matter of optimizing the setup for MoCA 2.5, but still a fairly common cable+MoCA setup. That said, with TiVo boxes topping out at standard MoCA 2.0, best case, it might be worthwhile looking at redirecting networking for any MoCA-connected TiVo boxes through co-located MoCA 2.5 nodes. (Not so much to improve TiVo network throughput as to eliminate the non-MoCA 2.5 nodes.) This could be done as a later step, of course, if any TiVo nodes are found to throttle the overall MoCA performance.

* outline/highlights for a cable+MoCA setup

If wanting to plan for the long-term, as mentioned above, you’d want to plot how you might isolate the ISP/modem feed from the coax carrying MoCA signals.

.

 

[krkaufman]

This limits the bands available ( 2, maybe 3) and would restrict the link to 1 Gbit/s half duplex (roughly 500 Mbit/s average, at best).

Say 2x channels, as an example… the MoCA 2.5 max throughput for the 2-channel link would be 1000 Mbps, shared: so up to 1000 Mbps absent any competing traffic. Same way a 5-channel MoCA 2.5 link (with requisite 2.5 GbE gear) can approach 2500 Mbps throughput. (500 Mbps per channel)

 

[BobMc]

so, moca may be possible. If the modem is DOCCIS3.1 or higher. you would have to have moca modems that can be configured to use only the D-High bands. This limits the bands available ( 2, maybe 3) and would restrict the link to 1 Gbit/s half duplex (roughly 500 Mbit/s average, at best).

The modem is DOCCIS3.1, so your info would apply. Consequently, if I could only get 500Mbps at best, that would be no better than what I'm currently getting using AiMesh setup.

Also, any splitter in the moca path will have to be certified MOCA2 or 2.5. The TIVO boxes may be using MOCA, i don't know for sure.
If the coax runs are straight shots with no intervening splitters in the wall/attic, then it may be ok. If you don't know or can't trace it out, the moca signal is likely blocked, especially if you have to share the cable with DOCCIS3.1

You will need to map out your coax for the house and know the requirements of each device on the coax before you can figure out what needs to be done.

An alternative might be to hire an alarm installer to run either 1) a new, moca dedicated coax run through the attic to whatever points you want or 2) run a CAT6 cable to the same points and terminate the cable. An alarm installer may not have the termination tool or plugs, so you may have to do it yourself. It is not hard, but you want good quality tools, not the cheapest you can find. There are plenty of threads here on it and U-tube videos for the various brands.

Dong Knows Tech at https://dongknows.com/get-your-home-wired-with-network-cables/ has a great how to do-it-yourself guide on running ethernet cable. I may bite the bullet and give that a try if I decide that I absolutely must increase the LAN speeds, though running the cable would be a PITA, even for a pro installer.

The question about phone over coax probably only constrains the choice of main splitter as some are designed to pass telephone signals. Most are not ! If it is VOIP, then those are just special digital packets like any other computer sends so i would not expect an issue with a splitter, but i could be wrong as i have not specifically dealt with that issue.

Thanks to everyone who responded for the help and ideas.

 

[krkaufman]

MoCA should only ever be a fallback where Cat5+ isn’t available (but coax is). If you can drop a new Cat6 line, that’s preferable; drop two, even.

As for MoCA…

The modem is DOCCIS3.1, so your info would apply.

It doesn’t; not as detailed in that reply. For now the third fourth time … you’d just need to install an extra MoCA filter directly on the modem to address the DOCSIS 3.1 modem’s MoCA sensitivity and achieve full MoCA 2.5 LAN throughput while maintaining your full ISP speeds. (edit: … in addition to the other tasks associated with validating the coax for MoCA 2.5.)

As the “encroachment” comment describes, if/when a provider actually begins using DOCSIS 3.1 frequencies above 1002 MHz, shifting the MoCA operating frequency (accepting the throughput implications) above the DOCSIS 3.1 “initial rollout” range isn’t really an option absent the availability of a “PoE” MoCA filter with matching pass- and stop-bands to block MoCA at the point-of-entry while allowing through all the DOCSIS signals. Isolation of the ISP/modem feed would be the only option, along with being the better performing alternative.

 

[degrub]

If you can log into the modem, you should be able to find a page that documents the download frequencies in use for your speed of service.

If the highest band frequency is 1002, then you can freely use the moca 2.5 modems with the 70dB moca filter on the modem inlet as indicated by @krkaufman (who knows the moca implementations in detail). You may also need at moca filter at the line from the demarc box to prevent your moca signal from going into Spectrum's coax network. Your moca signal should not go through the main splitter that you have unless it is certified for moca2.

An alternative to placing the moca filter on the modem inlet would be to use an additional moca rated 2 way splitter. You may be able to isolate (disconnect) the coax cable going to the AV room and install a 2 way splitter, moca2 certified, with a 70 dB moca filter (that allows the DOCCIS signal on the 1215 MHz band - hard to find) on the inlet port and reconnected to the main splitter port (with a short coax), the coax going to the AV room on one outlet port and a short coax to the moca modem from the other outlet port. This assumes the main splitter is inside the house near the modem and you will only use 1 existing cable for moca. In the AV room, you will need another moca2 certified splitter ( that allows the DOCCIS signal on the 1215 MHz band - hard to find) with the inlet port connected to the wall with a short coax, one outlet connected to the existing coax (that was plugged into the wall before) and the other outlet connected to the moca modem with a short coax cable. The only issue that might develop from the above change would be too much signal loss for the run to the existing equipment. The existing amplified splitter should be able to make up the difference.

If the highest band frequency in use is 1215, then Spectrum is already taking up the lower two bands and you would have to make sure the moca 2.5 modems are able to be configured to run in D-High, limiting your bandwidth.

Cleanest solution is to run CAT6 through the attic to the AV room and possibly the far end of the house (to site an AP to cover wireless needs inside and out). i would install 2 cables per drop as the only additional cost is the length of cable and 2 additional terminations. make sure the installation is tested and certified for whatever data rate you think you may need - 1, 5, or 10Gb/s Then you don't care what Spectrum or any other ISP is doing for the long term.

 

[krkaufman]

If the highest band frequency in use is 1215, then Spectrum is already taking up the lower two bands and you would have to make sure the moca 2.5 modems are able to be configured to run in D-High, limiting your bandwidth.

Again… if this is the case, isolation of the ISP/modem feed from the MoCA-infused coax is the only option, unless you know of a “PoE” MoCA filter with pass- and stop-bands matching these alternative frequency ranges.

 

[degrub]

reading that reddit thread, i don't think they will be found. A new CAT6 run is the simplist unless he can get the TIVO box and any other coax users that rely on that feed, off of the coax. Then he could isolate the ISP drop.

 

[L&LD]

@BobMc, you're failing to understand that your testing isn't testing LAN, it's only testing WAN speeds. Which, at only 500Mbps max, are not fast enough to see any degradation when testing only a single client with a speedtest.

As I've offered before:

Spectrum EU2251 Modem and voice effected by MoCA?

Thinking about setting up MoCA between office/entry point and AV room. Here's our current setup: Current modem is an EU2251 (make unknown, but suspect ARRIS) provided by Spectrum. Have internet, cable and voice/phone service. Spectrum specs says it's DOCSIS 3.1 certified and supports up to 5...

www.snbforums.com

Test your wired client when you're concurrently using several WiFi clients too. On both the main router and the AiMesh node.

Do the same test when in AiMesh mode. And when in Media Bridge mode.

There is no chance that wireless backhaul AiMesh mode is equivalent to MB mode unless there are other issues in your network.

Testing with an online speedtest when your ISP is only ~500Mbps won't ever let you approach LAN speeds, ever. So there is no way you can evaluate properly whether wireless AiMesh is worse or not (it is) than MB mode.

And, a final question, when you state the USB adaptor is 2.5GHz, are you trying to say it's a 2.5GbE adaptor?

 

[krkaufman]

Have a lot of questions about how to set up the MoCA devices, splitters, and filters, but for now the issue is whether a MoCA setup would affect or be affected by the voice/phone functionality of the setup.

The “but for now” question has been answered. Do you have any other questions Re: effecting a MoCA link to the AV room?

 

[BobMc]

The “but for now” question has been answered. Do you have any other questions Re: effecting a MoCA link to the AV room?

Apologies for the delayed response, but our local Spectrum was out for about 6 hours today.

Yes, I do understand that using Speedtest just tests the WAN speed, but it also means that I'm getting that speed at the AiMesh node where I conducted the test.

Right now, I guess I'm confused by the terminology (I said I was a newbee to MoCA). krkaufman has stated that MoCA could provide up to 2.5GHz with the proper filter(s), whereas degrub indicated I could only get 500Mbps! I assumed that both would have considered a proper setup to get the max throughput; perhaps I missed something in one or the other posts. Now dgrub agrees with krkaufman, so it was undoubtedly my error.

What I'm understanding now is that with proper filter(s) I should be able to get above at least 1GHz using MoCA, even with a DOCSIS 3.1 modem.

and yes, I said the adapter/adaptor was 2.5GHZ going from USB 3.0 on my laptop to ethernet.

Since there seems to be agreement about potential speeds, I'll give MoCA a try; that will be much easier than trying to run a Cat6 cable, even though it will most likely be slower.

Again, thanks to everyone.

 

[L&LD]

Yes, I know you said it was 2.5GHz. But that makes no sense for a USB Ethernet adaptor. Is it a 1GbE Ethernet adaptor or is it a 2.5GbE Ethernet adaptor?

As for the 'it also means that I'm getting that speed at the AiMesh node where I conducted the test.' you're testing wrong if you're only testing the wired separately and not concurrently with some WiFi streams happening on both the main router and the AiMesh node. You'll then quickly see that you're not even getting 500Mbps either (over the USB Ethernet adaptor).

Be sure you know where you are now before you start changing things and don't know where you're ending up/going (better or worse).

 

[krkaufman]

krkaufman has stated that MoCA could provide up to 2.5GHz

It would have been Gbps (a rate), not GHz (a frequency); but what krkaufman actually said was:

a 5-channel MoCA 2.5 link (with requisite 2.5 GbE gear) can approach 2500 Mbps throughput. (500 Mbps per channel)

edit: 2.5 GbE == 2.5 Gigabit Ethernet

If you’re using Gigabit gear, the throughput will be nearer 1 Gbps (900+ Mbps) — but with MoCA 2.5’s 2500 Mbps throughput over the coax, the effective throughput could approach Gigabit symmetrical.

What I'm understanding now is that with proper filter(s) I should be able to get above at least 1GHz using MoCA

The “prophylactic” filter is just one component you’ll need; the rest of the MoCA setup hasn’t really been addressed, since you said you wanted to deal with just the compatibility question “for now.” The “overview” link previously posted gets into additional MoCA optimization recommendations.

What’s recommended is to plot out the setup and post a sketch, however rough, to allow quicker understanding and feedback.

 

[BobMc]

Yes, I had a brain f*rt and typed GHz instead of Gbps. Thanks for catching that, but you interpreted my mistake correctly.

 

[randymassey]

Thinking about setting up MoCA between office/entry point and AV room.

Here's our current setup:

Current modem is an EU2251 (make unknown, but suspect ARRIS) provided by Spectrum. Have internet, cable and voice/phone service. Spectrum specs says it's DOCSIS 3.1 certified and supports up to 5 Gbps (our internet connection is 500 MBps). The frequency range is 158MHz to 1218MHz.

Our office is the location of the modem, main router (ASUS RT-AX88u Pro), and several desktop computers and other devices connect to the router via ethernet. All ethernet is cat 6.

The AV room which is currently linked with the office using a MESH setup with an ASUS Rt-AX3000 router in the AV room which supports a TIVO, ROKU, Denon receiver, and weather station via ethernet to the AX3000 (the TV gets all input from the Denon receiver and the TIVO is connected to the cable system and the output feeds to the Denon receiver). All ethernet is cat 6.

WiFi great over entire 3,000 sq ft single floor home. Other TVs and ROKU devices around the various bedrooms use WiFi connections although cable lines are available to all.

Have a lot of questions about how to set up the MoCA devices, splitters, and filters, but for now the issue is whether a MoCA setup would affect or be affected by the voice/phone functionality of the setup.

Any thoughts?

BobMc, did you ever get this fully answered / implemented? I know it’s been many months from your last post; I am also a Spectrum customer with this is exact modem (EU2251) & I do use DOCSIS 3.1 compliant 2.5GbE MoCA adapters (with a PoE / MoCA reflector filter at the head in, not at the modem; as if you have access to the entry point, it’s better at the head in point, as the filter / reflector <I used a Belden which is also a “reflector” as well as a PoE / MoCA filter>, will also preserve the integrity of the signal to the other MoCA units across all of your COAX when placed at the entry point ahead of any splitters; as well as protect your network from the signal bleeding out to neighbors of course.. Some might be filter only, on that I am not clear. I did also upgrade any splitters (I only had 1 also at my entry panel) to 2.5GHz splitters, & lastly I upgraded ALL COAX wall plate or in junction box “couplers” to modern 3GHz COAX (blue plastic insert instead of the traditional clear white plastic) couplers, & it ALL works REALLLLY well. I have used it with Spectrum @ 1Gbps speeds inbound, & as an FYI, by using Cat-8 braided / shielded Ethernet cables everywhere (not Cat-6), I also gained the over-provisioning Spectrum pads into the connection. I also only really needed 500Mbps inbound ultimately, so later dropped from the 1Gbps to 500 like you are (or were) at. BUT I actualize (using SpeedTest, but always the SAME testing server each time I test, important detail); but I actualize around 580Mbps inbound consistently on the 500 package.

If you did not embark on the project in the last 6 months & still have questions; since I have a very similar setup, I would be happy to share any details that might be of help. As well, the compliant MoCA adapters I used came from TranLite Global, model # TL-MC85, & you do have to log into it’s WEB admin & tweak the band settings & LOF value to make them DOCSIS 3.1 savvy, but they do provide the documentation for that (& it’s really just a couple of clicks & typing in the updated LOF value & clicking save / reboot). But everything works beautifully, & no service conflicts with the modem / video etc., & now the COAX is all 2.5GbE as these units have both an onboard pass thru COAX port (eg 2 ports vs 1, which helps reduce db loss if you use a 1-port only MoCA adapter), & it has both 1Gbps & 2.5Gbps Ethernet ports.

FYI..

Randy

 

[krkaufman]

you do have to log into it’s WEB admin & tweak the band settings & LOF value to make them DOCSIS 3.1 savvy

FWIW… The simpler alternative workaround that maintains the full max throughput for MoCA 2.5 is to just install a (70+ dB) MoCA filter on the DOCSIS 3.1 modem, as a prophylactic, to protect the MoCA-sensitive D3.1 modem from the MoCA signals.

Related: DOCSIS encroachment on the MoCA [Band D] frequency range

now the COAX is all 2.5GbE

Tweaking the adapter operating frequency range reduces the number of channels bonded, and so reduces the effective throughput of the MoCA network. For example, following the “DOCSIS 3.1 Cable Modem” instructions on pg. 10 of the TL-MC85 User Manual restricts the adapters to the D-High frequency range, 1350-1675 MHz — using only 3 bonded channels rather than 5, and reducing max shared throughput from 2500 to 1500 Mbps. (Still more than enough to support a 500 Mbps download plan, but short of MoCA 2.5 potential.)

 

[BobMc]

BobMc, did you ever get this fully answered / implemented? I know it’s been many months from your last post; I am also a Spectrum customer with this is exact modem (EU2251) & I do use DOCSIS 3.1 compliant 2.5GbE MoCA adapters (with a PoE / MoCA reflector filter at the head in, not at the modem; as if you have access to the entry point, it’s better at the head in point, as the filter / reflector <I used a Belden which is also a “reflector” as well as a PoE / MoCA filter>, will also preserve the integrity of the signal to the other MoCA units across all of your COAX when placed at the entry point ahead of any splitters; as well as protect your network from the signal bleeding out to neighbors of course.. Some might be filter only, on that I am not clear. I did also upgrade any splitters (I only had 1 also at my entry panel) to 2.5GHz splitters, & lastly I upgraded ALL COAX wall plate or in junction box “couplers” to modern 3GHz COAX (blue plastic insert instead of the traditional clear white plastic) couplers, & it ALL works REALLLLY well. I have used it with Spectrum @ 1Gbps speeds inbound, & as an FYI, by using Cat-8 braided / shielded Ethernet cables everywhere (not Cat-6), I also gained the over-provisioning Spectrum pads into the connection. I also only really needed 500Mbps inbound ultimately, so later dropped from the 1Gbps to 500 like you are (or were) at. BUT I actualize (using SpeedTest, but always the SAME testing server each time I test, important detail); but I actualize around 580Mbps inbound consistently on the 500 package.

If you did not embark on the project in the last 6 months & still have questions; since I have a very similar setup, I would be happy to share any details that might be of help. As well, the compliant MoCA adapters I used came from TranLite Global, model # TL-MC85, & you do have to log into it’s WEB admin & tweak the band settings & LOF value to make them DOCSIS 3.1 savvy, but they do provide the documentation for that (& it’s really just a couple of clicks & typing in the updated LOF value & clicking save / reboot). But everything works beautifully, & no service conflicts with the modem / video etc., & now the COAX is all 2.5GbE as these units have both an onboard pass thru COAX port (eg 2 ports vs 1, which helps reduce db loss if you use a 1-port only MoCA adapter), & it has both 1Gbps & 2.5Gbps Ethernet ports.

FYI..

Randy

Randy, no I didn't. Got to be more complicated than I had anticipated. I'm certainly no luddite, having built computers and networks for over 30 years, but I'm afraid it's beyond my capability to work out a solution.

Seems like paying someone to run an ethernet cable to the other location in the house is the easiest solution for me, if I decide that "good enough" isn't good enough!!!

Thanks for your reply and offer of assistance!