Taking the plunge

[Mediaman]

After reading about the poor performance of my old FVS318 router in the router charts, and after being bugged by the family for some time to embrace wireless (have none now), I am ready to take the plunge...on something, so that the kids laptops will work wirelessly ( the older Dell is G only ; the new Macbook is G/draft N)

I have tried to read (and comprehend) as much as I can about wireless including the cautions of N re the hype, its impact on G, draft status etc. I dabbled years back in this with terrible results ( must have been 802.11b at the time) which is when I wired up as much as I could! I see thing are better now (re G) , though still problematic I see (re N)

In terms of context of what I have and need, see the attached overview diagram.

I think I have boiled things down to three questions:

1) For my main router ("A" in the diagram), one of my options calls for a robust 4 port WIRED router, What 4 port wired routers should be on the short list? I am currently looking at a D-Link DGL-4100 but what other WIRED routers should I be considering??

2) Another option for my main router ("A" in the diagram), is for a robust 4 PORT WIRELESS-G router (vs WIRED router.)...which these days means G. What should be on my short list? As I cant take advantage of speedboosters (as I'd need matching cards), the list looks pretty short eg DLG-4300, WBR-2310. Lynksys WRT54G(S)....but what other WIRELESS-G routers should I be considering?

3) For the wireless access point ("C" in the diagram), I guess I will either end up with a second G (ie a unit like (2) above set up as an access point) , or take a shot at potetial throwaway N model, like the D-link 625 (as a wireless access point). Should I be looking at any other 4 PORT WIRELESS-N routers/access points?

 

[thiggins]

Thanks for the diagram. Think you need to back up a few steps and answer a few questions. You might also read How To Choose the Right Router for You if you already haven't.

1) What is your Internet up and down speed? That will be an important factor in choosing a router. Are your running any servers, VPN? Does anyone game or run P2P applications (BitTorrent) or do heavy downloading?

2) What are you doing with your network? Where are the high bandwidth needs (large file transfers / backups) and the low (web browsing, email). Are you doing any streaming? If so, what, music, SD video, HD video?

3) I see gigabit switches. Are all of your PCs gigabit-equipped? Even if they aren't I would recommend a gigabit switch at A, whether it is in or outside the router.

4) Why the connection from B to C instead of A to C?

5) What are the wireless-connected clients going to be doing? Browsing and email primarily? What distance are you expecting to cover, how many walls,ceilings and are we talking sheetrock or concrete/brick?

 

[Mediaman]

Many thanks for your assistance here.

I tired to answer all your (great) questions below:

What is your Internet up and down speed? That will be an important factor in choosing a router
Rated service is 7 Mbps download and 500 kbps (I think) upload. I ran this speed test , using the 'at home' option, and it returned 8218 kb/s. I ran a Cogeco speed test and got 6905 kbps download and 507 kbps upload. I am on Rogers Communications. I ran the Rogers Speed/ and got 6.92Mbps downstream and 507 kps upstream

Are your running any servers?
No.

VPN?
No, but I do use apps like LogMeIn and Skype if thats relevant

Does anyone game or run P2P applications (BitTorrent) or do heavy downloading?
No

What are you doing with your network? Where are the high bandwidth needs (large file transfers / backups) and the low (web browsing, email).
For the desktops, PC01 and 02 are the main machines, primarily for web browsing and email, and printer sharing. PC01 used internet radio at times, and does large files transfers when processing overnight backups (thus not a issue in practice) Occassionally, when there is need to share files, or add a network printer, or browse thru the connected computers, I do see a noticable delay is the system recognizng the other PCs, so there is a perfromance hit somewhere. The maximum cable length I have is 100 feet. For the laptops, use is primarily for web browsing and email.

Are you doing any streaming? If so, what, music, SD video, HD video?
Hmmm... not at this time due to performance issues!. What I do instead is 'synchronize' the machiens so each has a local copy of the media files. I am ok with this as its another form of backup. Ideally, I suppose I would want to stream everything from PC01. I almost purchased a Squeezebox, but ended up putting a spare PC (PC05) there instead. Streaming video is not something I have explored yet. If I did, PC04 and PC05 are where the big screens are.

I see gigabit switches. Are all of your PCs gigabit-equipped?
Was simply thinking ahead when I bought them. Currently none of the routers or NICS are gigabit equipped (except for PC01 which came with a gigabit NIC)

Even if they aren't I would recommend a gigabit switch at A, whether it is in or outside the router.
Agreed.

Why the connection from B to C instead of A to C?
There was physically no other way. Basement is now finished and while I can get from A to B and from B to C, I cannot get from A to C. It worked out okay, kindda, as I needed a few drops at B anyway for the PC there, and for a future AVR upgrade, HD DVD etc.

What are the wireless-connected clients going to be doing? Browsing and email primarily?
Yes and perhaps some music downloading.

What distance are you expecting to cover,
I am open to multiple wireless access points over time to cover more areas, but the main area to cover now is the den and perhaps the deck area behind it. Ideally if I had to prioritize more and more coverage, it would be bedrooms , then basement, then office. I could thus forsee the main wireless access point in the DEN, another in one of the bedrooms and perhaps a third in the basement. The office may be covered of by one those three, or by its own wirless router if I go that route for the main router. Office is not really a concern though as I have two wired PCs already there.

how many walls,ceilings and are we talking sheetrock or concrete/brick?
3 levels as shown in the diagram. Floor plan is NOT open concept (except for 3/4 of basement...so each area shown on the diagram is a typical 4 wall room. Walls are drywall and wood studs.

Hope this was helpful...

 

[thiggins]

Good responses, Mediaman. Thanks.

Router: The FVS318 is limiting your download speed slightly since it's at 7 Mbps. The DGL-4100 would be a fine choice, since it has an integrated gigabit switch and tested over 90 Mbps (it is represented in the Router Charts as the DGL-4300, the wireless version). The 4100 also has Ubicom auto-QoS, which is effective at automatically optimizing upstream bandwidth to give real-time apps such as VoIP and Skype priority over file sharing.

Wireless: Since you have Ethernet run to areas that are close to where you need wireless coverage, you can use most any wireless router and convert it to an Access Point. This also gives you a few Ethernet ports where you install the router, so you don't need a separate switch. If you are ok with 10/100 Ethernet, then you have numerous choices. If you want gigabit, then your wireless router choice is more limited. Use the Router Chart and check the Gigabit LAN and WlAN filters to see the choices. If you wanted to stay with D-Link, then the DGL-4300 would work nicely.

Performance: It doesn't appear that there is any particularly "heavy lifting" going on in the network to cause "performance" problems. If you have kids, I suspect that you may have some mucked-up computers somewhere that are sucking up network bandwidth.

Tracking this down takes a lot of work. You should be running updated anti-virus on all machines. But you also probably need spyware/malware scanning and checking too. You need to go machine by machine and run a full system scan with updated AV software. Then you probably also need to do a spyware scan. You can try Ad-Aware for free, but Webroot SpySweeper might be a better bet.

The nice thing about the D-Link routers is that the Active Sessions screen can be helpful for tracking stuff like this down. You would first shut down all machines and reboot the router. Then fire up one machine and log into the router admin and check the Active Sessions. You can then do a reverse IP lookup on the connections you see to see if they look ok. By the way, shut off Skype before you do this, because it makes connections all sorts of places!

Good luck with your selections. Let us know how you make out.

 

[Mediaman]

Many thanks again for taking the time on this, most appreciated. Some more comments...


1) NETWORK PERFORMANCE - I should been clearer here; the machines themselves are 'golden', ie freshly formatted, really clean, all running updated anti-virus etc. Kids are older are out of the house. I am in control again!! So the machines themselves respond well, but I find when I list all network connections, there is a lot of hour glassing...until it finally pops up. Once I see a remote machine, it’s good. It could be long cable lengths, old NICS, etc or a dozen other things. Not much I can do about the cable, but I can certainly upgrade NICs over time. Also, I think some of OS related as in past I recall a big difference between accessing a remote computer via an explorer tree approach, vs. via a mapped drive. I know even at the office (where we have 4000 users), there is a marked difference between browsing for file via File Open, versus simply specifying a path name. File Open make take 30 seconds for a directory to appear, whereas as V:\Docs is instant. Need to do some more testing on this to help narrow things down. On this note, I guess I should start with some benchmark tools. Someone suggested iperf to me, but it’s not the friendliest and I gave up quickly! Just now playing with Qcheck (at least it has an interface)

2) MAIN ROUTER D-Link 4100 (approx $120CDN less $20 rebate) is the likely selection ; seems to be well supported, documented. Not a super wide selection on affordable wired routers today, so this is looking good.

3) Main 8 Port Giga Switch - Seems I have three choices here:

• D-Link DGS-1008D ($65 CDN)
• D-Link DGS-2208 (being discontinued, $70 CDN less 10 rebate)
• Netgear GS608 ($75 less $15 rebate)

I think these are all identical, will likely stick with D-Link to keep the finger pointing low in the event I ever get to a tech support issue

4) Wireless Access Points with gigabit ports, (G or N) - Here is where I have a few too many options, as you well know, even if I stick with the D-Link family:

• DGL-4300 ($160CDN less $25 rebate = $135 is my starting point. I note the comparison charts show this as not Wi-Fi compliant ( but it is listed on the W-Fi Alliance org site as compliant. Also do I want to spend that much on a G wireless access point??
• DIR 655 ($139). So question here ...if this is the same price as the DGL-4300, and at worst I can configure it a G only, what’s the harm in going this route or a DGL-4300. Both have gigabit ports and 655 has 3 antennae, N, higher tested throughout, etc
• Better still I think I bought some time on this one. BestBuy has the no-frills Trendnet 108Mmbps TEW-452BRP (4 port Wireless-g WAP2 Super G/XR router) on sale today only for $19.99!! I figure for use as g wireless access point, for now, it’s a very good compromise. I bought three just in case, for full house coverage (can always return one or more or all). This way I can get basic wireless connectivity, and wait out the game re N standards, dual band, dual radio, etc, for a high end-uint Make sense??

5) PCI Gigabit Network Cards – I am almost afraid to ask! Let me guess- they are NOT all the same!. Any favourites/cautions out there?

 

[thiggins]

Good pick on the main router.

Any unmanaged gigabit switch is fine as long as you don't need jumbo frames. Buy on price, warranty and brand (if that matters). If you want to agonize over this pick more, see 8 Port Gigabit Switch Roundup.

Good buy on the Trendnet routers. Can't go too far wrong for $20. Only thing you are giving up is gigabit switch.

For gigabit NICs the only consideration is PCI-E vs. PCI. If your computers have a PCI express slot (the short one, not the long one), then get a PCI-E NIC. A PCI gigabit NIC will limit speeds to 500-600 Mbps or so. PCI-E will get you closer to 1000 Mbps, if you have a current, fast CPU. You probably wouldn't notice the difference between PCI and PCI-E unless you were doing a LOT of large file transfers.
As far as which NIC, you can't go too wrong with Intel Pro/1000's.

Last, but not least, the network speed. Actually, it doesn't sound like a transfer speed issue, but a Windows network browsing issue, so that rules out cabling. I suspect a Windows Master Browser problem. Go here
How To: Tips for Fixing XP File and Printer sharing
and follow the steps in Tip 4.

It's also a good idea to every once in awhile delete all the shares from My Network Places on each machine so that they aren't wasting time looking for shares that may have gone away.

 

[Mediaman]

Re my main wired router ("A" in main office) , the DGL-4100 is good...but is now is the same price here as the DIR-655

If , for my main office, where I want a robust main router (and could look at wireless cabability as a bonus, or just not use it) how to these routers compare?

Looking at the compare charts, I see (but dont appreciate) differences, ie
-differnece in jumbo frames,
-Ubicom IP5160 vs IP3023
-Vitesse VSC7385 vs Broadcom BCM5385
-Atheros xSPAN vs 5004X
-etc

Are these significant? Even if marginal, if the 655 'also' provides wireless, then perhas its a better choice?

DGL-4100 is currenly $122CDN less $20rebate = $102
DIR-655 is on sale for $95

Thanks

 

[thiggins]

Both are good routers with similar routing features. Significantly higher routing speed than what your Internet connection supports doesn't provide any benefit. Jumbo frames can improve performance with gigabit adapters that support them.

Looks like you get wireless at a lower price. You need to make your own decision.

 

[Mediaman]

Update

Ok I waited for the sales and bought

• a DIR-655 (for my main router to replace old relic FVS318 wired router) , 30% off ( I think there was a price drop on this unit)
• Three Trendnets TES 452BRP G-only routers for use as access points throughout the house ; they were on sale for $20 each.

All I have installed to date is one Trendnet.

Its surprisingly good so far. Sometimes when things are too good to be true, they are, so I just want to be sure I am not getting any misleading indicators. I installed the router in an upstairs bedroom On the laptop in that room, the Intel Pro NIC reports “ 54 Mbps, Excellent Quality” . I ran this speed test and got 6Mps download which is what I get from my wired desktop. I then walked into EVERY room in my house, upstairs, downstairs, basement, front of house, back of house. Each area till reports excellent quality and comparable speed test results. When I walked down the street, the signal finally disappeared ie it came off the available networks list. (... and dozens more appeared!) – but I never got Good, or Poor quality – just Excellent or nothing…which leads me to believe I cannot really trust the little “excellent’ pop-up in the tak bar. Is there a simple utility I can run to get more useable results?

Regardless, I surely do not need three of these, so two are being returned even thogh they were great deals!

At first I thought 'hey I don’t even need the 655 for wireless now' but a) of course its much better than the Trendnet (231 mbps vs 40 Mbps on the throughput charts) and b) I didn’t really buy it for that purpose, ; but rather for use as a replacement router for improved wired LAN throughput, so I think it’s still a good choice and I should not return that one. Trendnet will remain in the mix if needed, or just be shelved for now if not needed.

 

[thiggins]

Is there a simple utility I can run to get more useable results?

Sure. See How To Fix Your Wireless Network - Part 2: Site Surveying

 

[Mediaman]

Excellent.

Didnt take long to figure out the basics, but basically I walked around the house where laptops would be used, with results attached. I dont know if there is a 'minimum standard', but I think these results are generally good.

 

[thiggins]

Yes, they are pretty good.
One thing about NetStumbler is that it may still receive a signal at some locations in the 90's, but you won't really be able to get a connection there.

You are well above -90, though.