What's new

The FCC is asking for comments on a proposal to require manufacturers to lock down computing devices

  • SNBForums Code of Conduct

    SNBForums is a community for everyone, no matter what their level of experience.

    Please be tolerant and patient of others, especially newcomers. We are all here to share and learn!

    The rules are simple: Be patient, be nice, be helpful or be gone!

Do you have an official quote stating this?
Perhaps overstated that this is a direct quote from the FCC. But according to this ArsTechnica article (http://arstechnica.com/information-...wi-fi-routers-but-the-truth-is-a-bit-murkier/), it seems that at least several telecom and chipmaker insiders (who do have access to sources inside the FCC) believe that the only thing the FCC really wants is to lock down are the radios (and not other aspects of firmware or hardware) so that end users 1) can't change transmit power or 2) use frequencies they shouldn't be on that interfere with civil, military and weather radar.
But as TechDirt writer Karl Bode noted, the FCC’s current leadership, fresh off a big net neutrality move, seems highly unlikely to “ban all personal hardware freedom.”
The FCC kicked off this rulemaking because of interference problems at airports, telecom policy expert and senior VP of Public Knowledge Harold Feld told TechDirt.
“We had problems with illegally modified equipment interfering with terrestrial doppler weather radar (TDWR) at airports,” Feld said. “Naturally the FAA freaked out, and the FCC responded to this actual real world concern.”
The potential problem, Feld said, is that if the FCC writes rules that aren’t crystal clear, “major chip manufacturers will respond by saying ‘the easiest thing for us to do is lock down all the middleware rather than worry about where to draw the line.’”

and this
Kathy Giori, a senior product manager at Qualcomm Atheros, was confident that manufacturers can lock down the radio frequency settings of devices without locking out all third-party firmware. “The FCC really only cares about not modifying the power/freq to go outside stated regulatory rules,” Giori wrote on July 28. “So we have to find a way to keep general software updates and reflashing open while limiting any proliferation of binary images that have a means to break regulatory restrictions.”

And @ Chrysalis:

It's not that any about 5ghz is "bad". But the FCC is concerned about the issues noted above. I think the talk about limiting open source and locking out firmware from third party sources has largely been a result of some overzealous staffers (not the FCC commissioners themselves) who have written some very bad text in the call for public comment, which specifically identified, e.g., locking out firmware such as DDWRT and other open source, and, as the Ars article suggests, there's been a lot of push-back because of that overly broad and badly worded text.

1. The FAA, NOAA and the U.S. military aren't going to relocate weather, civil aviation or military installations, not at all reasonable. Better and far cheaper to keep you and your wireless router (and me and mine) off of their channels than vice-versa;
2. The solution has been to implement DFS (Dynamic Frequency Selection) and TPC (Transmit Power Control) on wireless routers for SOHO use, but as some here have discovered, DFS isn't always implemented properly by manufacturers, it hasn't always been enabled (even when it was supposed to be), and a lot of people who think their "tiny" transmitter can't affect radar (and thus can't affect civil aviation or weather radar which affects the life and safety of so many) mod their CFE so that they can avoid TPC and boost transmit power to silly levels; so the FCC's primary objective has been, for several years, to lock this aspect of router hardware down so it can't be modified.
3. And radar is different here in the U.S. than it is in Europe (different types of radar, different frequencies, really completely different technologies) and the logistical concerns and jurisdictional issues are also far different for the EU than they are for the U.S., so this is why you need differently configured devices for different world regions.

4. And lastly, it's not the FCC that limits manufacturers as to what they can and can't do outside the U.S.. It is of course true that the FCC has enormous influence over all of North America (including Canada and Mexico), but it's only real jurisdiction is over the U.S. states and territories (as well as offshore commonwealths like Puerto Rico, which is neither a state nor a territory of the U.S.). But in Europe there is ETSI, and the Japanese largely influence much of Southeast Asia (and interestingly, Chile too and a couple of other regions). While ETSI shares the same concerns about locking down wifi routers so that 1) users cannot modify transmit power above what is authorized in the EU and 2) wants to also insure that users cannot access frequencies on which their particular radar is used, and the two generally trade and share information all the time, they are really completely different regulatory bodies with entirely different jurisdictional mandates.

I think from the perspective of a small network user, our concerns are probably a lot different than the HAM guys who want to mod low power equipment for use in creating emergency mesh networks, and from what I've read (I'm not a Ham and know literally nothing about that stuff), they have other concerns than those that would interest folks like you and me and most of us here at SMB.
 
Last edited:
I think from the perspective of a small network user, our concerns are probably a lot different than the HAM guys who want to mod low power equipment for use in creating emergency mesh networks, and from what I've read (I'm not a Ham and know literally nothing about that stuff), they have other concerns than those that would interest folks like you and me and most of us here at SMB.

Well, I'm a Small Network user, as well as a Macro guy in my day job...

Don't dismiss HAM's with their efforts - having been through a series of major events that can take down cellular and wireline network, the ARRL folks are looking at Part 15 and Part 97 space to re-establish communications when things go down...

And the FCC proposed rules will impact their efforts...
 
Do you have an official quote stating this?

Sorry, I almost forgot the part from the source article that is cited by the Ars story (from TechDirt):

So yes, it's understandable that sloppy FCC engineer wording has some people nervous. But as folks like Stanford lawyer and software engineer Jonathan Mayer have noted, shirtty wording during a conversation about potential rules does not automatically equate to shirtty rules. Meanwhile, one needs to apply some common sense, and ask if an agency on a uncharacteristic pro-consumer tear -- fresh from a battle over one of the most important open platform fights of our time (net neutrality) -- would seriously think that banning all personal hardware freedom is a nifty follow up.

Curiously nobody seems to have asked the FCC what they think about all of this. So I asked, and the FCC offered me this admittedly clunky statement (note the underlined bit):

"(FCC rules) require that the devices must ensure that under all circumstances they comply with the rules. The majority of the devices have software that is used to control the functionality of the hardware for parameters which can be modified and in turn have an impact on the compliance of devices. Our rules do permit radios to be approved as Software Defined Radios (SDRs) where the compliance is ensured based on having secure software which cannot be modified. The (FCC's) position is that versions of this open source software can be used as long as they do not add the functionality to modify the underlying operating characteristics of the RF parameters. It depends on the manufacturer to provide us the information at the time of application on how such controls are implemented. We are looking for manufacturers of routers to take more responsibility to ensure that the devices cannot be easily modified."
 
Well, I'm a Small Network user, as well as a Macro guy in my day job...

Don't dismiss HAM's with their efforts - having been through a series of major events that can take down cellular and wireline network, the ARRL folks are looking at Part 15 and Part 97 space to re-establish communications when things go down...

And the FCC proposed rules will impact their efforts...

I'm not dismissing them at all, and I do recognize that there are differences between Part 15 and Part 97, and between unlicensed vs. licensed uses. And living in California, I too have lived through my share of natural disasters (including several ridiculously unforgettable earthquakes) that have taken down all established lines of communications, sometimes for prolonged periods. So no, I'm not dismissing them at all, just saying they have different concerns than most of us who are primarily only intersted in small computer networks (well, except for a Ham like you:)).
 
Want an onerous FCC? In Oman, I did work where the governement's FCC-equivalent prohibited use of 2.4GHz unlicensed WiFi, in outdoor spaces.
Well intended. But the oil field workers and others quickly got exemptions.
 
I'm not dismissing them at all, and I do recognize that there are differences between Part 15 and Part 97, and between unlicensed vs. licensed uses. And living in California, I too have lived through my share of natural disasters (including several ridiculously unforgettable earthquakes) that have taken down all established lines of communications, sometimes for prolonged periods. So no, I'm not dismissing them at all, just saying they have different concerns than most of us who are primarily only intersted in small computer networks (well, except for a Ham like you:)).

So you know where I'm coming from... that's good

This is serious stuff, and I've provided comments as a private citizen on the FCC comment site, and I've also reached out to my Senators and Congressperson - as an FCC holder and going over the top, I've done as much as I can with regards to this ruling...

FWIW - those crazy alarms on mobiles (CMAS/Wireless Emergecy Alerts), I've got a part of it - so I know the FCC and org details with how things work there...
 
Want an onerous FCC? In Oman, I did work where the governement's FCC-equivalent prohibited use of 2.4GHz unlicensed WiFi, in outdoor spaces.
Well intended. But the oil field workers and others quickly got exemptions.

The oilpatch always finds a way - whether it is Oman, or South Texas or the Bakken in North Dakota...

Just saying...
 
I'm not dismissing them at all, and I do recognize that there are differences between Part 15 and Part 97, and between unlicensed vs. licensed uses.

FWIW - really do appreciate your contribution here...

sfx
 
I dont see how its cheaper to get millions of people to adjust their routers, its clearly more sensible for the military and airports to adjust what they have, but I guess what is playing here is they have the mindset of "why should we change we are more important"

I can tell you now if 5ghz stays as locked down as it is in the EU region on device like the asus routers then a 3rd band will be needed, because the EU 5ghz range is smaller than the 2.4ghz range when you take into account it can have larger sizes of channel width.

Its the people who allocated 5ghz that messed up, people are not dodging rules they are using the specs that were ratified when 5ghz was first enabled, before the goal posts silently got moved.

I wouldnt have such a big issue if channels 100+ were enabled in the EU region like they should be, but the likes of asus are turning them off I think to play it safe. Its up to end users to make sure they legal, they shouldnt be babysit by manufacturers selling crippled devices.

But this is the first time I have heard of airports been affected, I wonder how widespread it is. Generally houses are not right next to an airport so some people must have very powerful access points if they managing to knockout a radar in an airport.
 
I dont see how its cheaper to get millions of people to adjust their routers, its clearly more sensible for the military and airports to adjust what they have, but I guess what is playing here is they have the mindset of "why should we change we are more important"

I can tell you now if 5ghz stays as locked down as it is in the EU region on device like the asus routers then a 3rd band will be needed, because the EU 5ghz range is smaller than the 2.4ghz range when you take into account it can have larger sizes of channel width.

Its the people who allocated 5ghz that messed up, people are not dodging rules they are using the specs that were ratified when 5ghz was first enabled, before the goal posts silently got moved.

I wouldnt have such a big issue if channels 100+ were enabled in the EU region like they should be, but the likes of asus are turning them off I think to play it safe. Its up to end users to make sure they legal, they shouldnt be babysit by manufacturers selling crippled devices.

But this is the first time I have heard of airports been affected, I wonder how widespread it is. Generally houses are not right next to an airport so some people must have very powerful access points if they managing to knockout a radar in an airport.

I'm not going to have the same discussion we had last year about this. There's an entire thread which discussed the issue of radar and locking down routers at great length. See http://www.snbforums.com/threads/asus-locking-down-routers-to-comply-with-new-fcc-rules.18762/. And no one "messed up" in allocating 5ghz. Radar simply uses different techniques in the EU than it does in the U.S.. It's not so much a question of power of wifi devices (although that does come into play if one takes the transmit power up sufficiently); rather it's the sensitivity of radar at detecting even what we all might think are inconsequential levels of radio transmissions and the effect that those transmits have on the radar.

In the U.S., the chief concern, especially in the southern states (where hurricanes are common) and in the Midwest (where tornados are also not uncommon), Doppler Radar is an essential and critical element of public safety. Likewise, that same radar is also critical for safety of civil aviation. And you don't need to be right next to an airport. Doppler can be affected even at distances of as much as 20-30 miles away.

There was a really good discussion last year about power transmit of one's router and the effects on Doppler radar in this thread http://www.snbforums.com/threads/is-your-routers-transmit-power-juiced.17710/ (See page 3 of the thread for most of the pertinent discussion of Doppler).
 
My rant over on the Asus thread...

Ok, I shouldn't cross the streams, so moving my post here...

===========
mromero said:
What we need now are developers to do the same thing and fix the borked up Asus firmware. The FCC operates in one country so why this nonsense of crippling the firmware for everyone? Thing is these routers are now $250. each and going up.


Without sounding rude, but Asus locking down their firmware would probably reduce Internet Bulletin Board/Web Forum traffic by about 99 percent - as most problem are caused by folks doing things that the HW basically cannot do... or SW configs/CFE updates that users probably shouldn't do...

I'm a big fan of FOSS, and I understand and support the GPL and having truly free and open source...

Most folks generally don't care - they go to the big box store, buy a box, put in on their LAN, and they're basically done - most of the problems I see here are self-inflicted to be honest - collectively, we're hot-rodding things - it's like the old days of BIOS Settings, autoexec.bat/config.sys tweaks, etc that might or might not work, and a lot of the hints are not based on engineering, but community knowledge from folks that might get something right and share - guilty of that myself from time to time...

Seriously - we're seeing folks trying to turn up power, enable channels via CFE files that are not appropriate, and these folks do<period>not<period>understand<period> the impacts of what they are doing - WiFi is a shared medium - and in 5GHz, we share it with things like Radars and in many countries, there are reasons why some channels are basically not available (e.g. it's licensed spectrum).

I have my objections to the proposed rule making, and I've made it clear here - but I also understand what is driving the FCC to do this in the first place - many of the changes that I've seen here, esp. on the Asus Wireless forums, go well beyond FCC Part 15 limits, and would go beyond any other country/union's limits as well.

It's the one percent that is impacting everyone... it's the ones that are abusing things.

just saying...

And here's the deal - looking at things from the FCC's perspective...

RMerlin, Kong, Tomato, Shibby, Padovan, and everyone else that is contributing and maintaining their own private forks...

They don't have the day to day experience inside the firmware - hell, even DD-WRT... I don't believe that even OpenWRT has full time folks working on things.

And then going into the RF side - WiFi - does RMerlin have a million dollar lab and a dedicated RF team to check/verify what changes he's made - probably not - and that would be the same for every 3rd party *WRT developer out there that is not directly linked to an OEM that can either self-certify (spending the megabuck on a lab) or afford a 3rd party lab to QA check that the RF is consistent with the Part 15 cert that the FCC has issued...

So this scares the hell out of the FCC - rightfully so... I get it... I still have my objections to the proposed ruling, but I totally understand where they're coming from.

I'm a licensed HAM, I get it, back in the day, I had a permit that the FCC would issue not only to HAM's, but also to licensed broadcasters across AM/FM/TV, and I've licensed, developed, and managed experimental PCS and Cellular sites to support 2G, 3G, and 4G handsets over the air.
 
Last edited:
dont see how its cheaper to get millions of people to adjust their routers, its clearly more sensible for the military and airports to adjust what they have, but I guess what is playing here is they have the mindset of "why should we change we are more important"

FCC, thru the proposed rule making, they're grandfathering in everything before a certain date - old gear will age out as capabilities expand and improve...
 
its clearly more sensible for the military and airports to adjust what they have

They always have - it's the third-party *WRT folks, and perhaps some vendor specific devices, that allow folks to bypass the Part 15 certs...

Ever flash a CFE file on an ASUS router, well, that's beyond Part 15 in the FCC's view.. whether it impacts things or not.

Part 15 is odd... and good for most of us...
 
if 5ghz wasnt messed up then why did they change the rules after they were originally brought online?

Yes there was separate rules before, e.g. the UK didnt used to be part of the EU region and had its own region.

Accusing people of blatantly pushing hardware beyond its limits without proof I think is rude, people just want to use their devices in how they were originally sold and to the original 5ghz specifications.

The EU specifications e.g. dont tell asus to limit power to 80mw and cutoff 3/4 of the channels.

The original UK specifications definitely did not state that.

If the regulator has a problem with how my router is running they are free to knock on my door and challenge me. :)

My working theory remains that if the FCC stayed out of it, we wouldnt have the lockdown we have now in europe.

Also to add both my 2.4 and 5 are currently set to 80 in the gui, I never raised them, even with them set to 80 using john's fork is a lot more stable than the crippled builds, the wifi is pretty broken on newer firmwares due to this mess.
 
Last edited:
if 5ghz wasnt messed up then why did they change the rules after they were originally brought online?

FCC, in the US, has been very consistent - DFS/TPC for certain frequencies, and they've opened things up recently - so FCC has been good there...

Also to add both my 2.4 and 5 are currently set to 80 in the gui, I never raised them, even with them set to 80 using john's fork is a lot more stable than the crippled builds

Well - does john have an RF Lab to test against current specs? And who does the application for a permissive change?

I think I know the answer here... nobody... hence the problem... and the FCC's concern...
 
RMerlin, Kong, Tomato, Shibby, Padovan, and everyone else that is contributing and maintaining their own private forks...

And please understand - I very much appreciate the time and effort that independent developers contribute... esp. the ones that do it on their own time outside of their day job.

Would I be wrong to assume that most want to run the *WRT variants, not for the wireless, but for the routing enhancements and fixes. One thing that could happen if the FCC moves forward is a return to Routers w/o Wireless, and dedicated AP's - and the community supported builds could continue without interference from the FCC...
 
The way forward is either for the FCC to put up with it or for the airports etc. to change their equipment.
 
Would I be wrong to assume that most want to run the *WRT variants, not for the wireless, but for the routing enhancements and fixes.

I provide zero "enhancements" to wifi, and yet my firmware project seems to be fairly popular, despite being limited to only a handful of models. Wifi driver is taken directly from Asus's code, I did no change at all to the region, power output or channel management. Closest I've been to touching it is to allow enabling 802.11d+h - and even there, I force 802.11h to be enabled on the 5 GHz band, as per Asus's own code.

That's why the compromise of forcing manufacturers to ensure that the wireless portion isn't user-modifiable is reasonable enough, as opposed to the heavy-handed "let's prevent changing the whole firmware" hinted by the FCC.
 
Similar threads

Support SNBForums w/ Amazon

If you'd like to support SNBForums, just use this link and buy anything on Amazon. Thanks!

Sign Up For SNBForums Daily Digest

Get an update of what's new every day delivered to your mailbox. Sign up here!
Top