Thinking about switching to MoCA 2.5

[GnatGoSplat]

I'm only getting average 250Mbps between my Intel AX200s in the basement and Asus RT-AC3100 router upstairs. Thinking about going back to MoCA with at least a couple endpoints in the basement, and going with MoCA 2.5 equipment this time.
My upstairs coax is fine, builder has each room going directly to a splitter. The basement however, was finished by the previous owner and he daisy-chained all the wiring using splitters.

I'm also considering making these CATV jacks work for TV, and I've read that I should use taps to balance them and an amplifier to make up for the signal losses.
Assuming I eventually want a MoCA bridge on East Wall Living Area, West Wall Funny Shaped Room, and South Wall Guest Room, would MoCA work with taps, or should I stick to the splitters? I guess I could balance them for CATV using attenuators instead, or is that a bad idea?
There is no way to change this wiring as I'd have to tear out all the drywall to do it, and if I were going to do that, might as well just run ethernet.

 

[GHammer]

You need to see if the existing splitters are MoCA compatible as the bandwidth and bands passed are important for MoCA.
Next, you will likely get better and more stable bandwidth to the rooms, but they will all share the same 'backbone' which under 'normal' conditions is 2.5 Gb.
Finally, you need to get a reflector to put at your cable entrance to keep your MoCA signal indise your house and not broadcast to the neighborhood.

My GoCoax units have TV passthrough and it does work.

 

[degrub]

When you say TV, do you mean cable TV company provided signal or OTA TV antenna provided signal ?
How are you getting your internet connection - cable co or phone co or ?

If OTA TV antennal use a channelmaster 7777HD antenna mounted low noise amp,17 or 30 dB gain, replace the 4 way with a MOCA2 rated 0 loss amplified splitter TV bands, replace the West wall funny shaped room spitter with a MOCA 2 rated, 0 loss moca, you may have to use ~0-15 dB TV signal ( 5-1002 MHz) amplified splitter (what you need depends on number of connections from CM776/7 to that point. if only single cable run to 4 way, then may not need anything above 0 loss for TV signal and 17dB on the CM to avoid overloading other TV receivers closer to the antenna in the cable path). Replace any other splitter in the MOCA2 path with one rated for MOCA2, not amplified.

Amplify Adjustable Gain Preamplifier

Official Channel Master Website - Learn more about the Channel Master Amplify (CM-7777HD) and buy direct from the manufacturer.

www.channelmaster.com

 

[GnatGoSplat]

Sorry, forgot to mention OTA, so I shouldn't need the reflector.
My internet comes from U-Verse so it doesn't use the coax.
Splitters will definitely need to be replaced as they were standard splitters and were even wired backwards as the previous homeowner found he could only fit them in the junction boxes that way (one output used as an input and vice versa). Looking at the MoCA splitters, they may be impossible to fit into the junction boxes. Looks like the only things that will fit properly are in-wall taps, which don't seem to be available for MoCA. This could be a problem.

If I need to use a jack for TV as well as MoCA, will there be less loss using a bridge with passthrough vs one without and an additional splitter? Or is it the same because it's just internally split? I just wonder because I see someone selling 1-port MoCA bridges for half the price of a 2-port.

 

[krkaufman]

Sorry, forgot to mention OTA, so I shouldn't need the reflector.

If the antenna coax will be connected to the MoCA-infused coax, a "PoE" MoCA filter (preferably w/ 70 dB attenuation) is required on the antenna line to prevent MoCA signals emanating from the premise (out the antenna).

 

[krkaufman]

If I need to use a jack for TV as well as MoCA, will there be less loss using a bridge with passthrough vs one without and an additional splitter? Or is it the same because it's just internally split?

MoCA adapters with pass-through ports use a diplexer internally, rather than a splitter, so the loss via the pass-through should be closer to that of a diplexer (e.g.) rather than a splitter ... but the MoCA adapter's specs (or the vendor's support team) should provide the details.

That said... no reason to force yourself into using MoCA adapters w/ RF pass-through. Given you have an OTA+MoCA setup, you could use antenna/satellite diplexers, rather than splitters, at endpoints where you're strictly looking to connect a MoCA adapter and TV device, allowing you to use a MoCA adapter with just the one coax port. (MoCA adapter to diplexer "SAT" port, TV to diplexer "VHF/UHF" port)

 

[krkaufman]

Splitters will definitely need to be replaced as they were standard splitters and were even wired backwards as the previous homeowner found he could only fit them in the junction boxes that way (one output used as an input and vice versa).

Yeah, you'll want the splitters oriented according to the coax tree for MoCA compatibility, with the input connected upstream towards the 4-way. (Frankly, I'd have expected TV reception issues at some of those locations, given the improper orientation.)

If you find the cascaded splitters (or taps) introduce too much loss to allow a single MoCA network across your coax plant, you can borrow from the MoCA best practices doc and add a pair of MoCA adapters to function effectively as a repeater.

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The bundle of components *would* be greatly simplified if the "repeater" adapters included the RF pass-through functionality....

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NOTE: Budget allowing, this would be a good application of the newer MoCA 2.5 adapters equipped with 2.5 GbE network ports, to avoid the Ethernet link between the “repeater” adapters from being the network bottleneck -- though these MoCA adapters lack the RF pass-through port, perhaps bringing the antenna/satellite diplexers back into the conversation:​

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NOTE2: The MoCA filter between the “repeater” adapters may be unnecessary, depending on the effective aggregate attenuation at MoCA frequencies of the adapters’ RF pass-through port.​

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And, yeah, this workaround most def isn't going to fit inside a wall junction box, but it may be sufficient if constructed just off the 4-way's output port, isolating the basement MoCA network from the rest.

As for having enough space in your wall junction boxes, you may require a Dremel, or some out-of-the-box thinking.

 

[krkaufman]

replace the West wall funny shaped room spitter with a MOCA 2 rated, 0 loss moca, you may have to use ~0-15 dB TV signal ( 5-1002 MHz) amplified splitter (what you need depends on number of connections from CM776/7 to that point. if only single cable run to 4 way, then may not need anything above 0 loss for TV signal and 17dB on the CM to avoid overloading other TV receivers closer to the antenna in the cable path). Replace any other splitter in the MOCA2 path with one rated for MOCA2, not amplified.

Any amplifier in the MoCA path will block (or at least severely attenuate) MoCA signals between its input and output ports, potentially requiring a MoCA bypass.

 

[degrub]

Any amplifier in the MoCA path will block (or at least severely attenuate) MoCA signals between its input and output ports, potentially requiring a MoCA bypass.

well, i could have written that sentence more clearly then - and it may take two devices to accomplish - or may be simpler to just use the 30 dB budget on the CM instead and insert loss filters ahead of any TV tuner closer to the CM if the receiver is over driven.

 

[krkaufman]

they will all share the same 'backbone' which under 'normal' conditions is 2.5 Gb.

Shared throughput max for a 3+ node setup is 2000 Mbps; the 2500 Mbps rate is only achieved in “TURBO” mode, for a 2 node-only setup. (TURBO mode nets a 25% throughput increase for MoCA 2.x setups, bumping throughput from 400 Mbps per channel up to 500 Mbps.)

 

[GnatGoSplat]

I've been looking at different splitters and taps. Looks like no splitters could easily fit in my junction boxes, but there are taps that could possibly fit well if I remove the F-connector from the wall plates and feed the TAP port of the tap directly through the hole in the wall plate. The taps I'm looking at are DirecTV DRETAP. One style goes up to 1650MHz, the other 2150MHz. I've tried re-orienting the existing incorrectly wired splitters that are in the j-boxes and it's extremely tough because RG6 or RG59 (not sure what previous owner used) is not especially flexible in tight spaces.
Am I correct to say any splitter/tap rated above 1650MHz can work for MoCA?
I've also read that MoCA can work at full bandwidth with up to -54dB (and some sites stating -57dB or -60dB) between nodes. If this is the case, sounds like I could use taps so long as the loss between MoCA nodes isn't more than -54dB? And if it is, I can just add additional nodes as repeaters?
If that's all correct, then maybe for OTA TV use, I should use taps to try to balance all the ports, put the antenna amp at the main input point before any MoCA nodes, then make sure there's not more than -54dB loss between nodes?

 

[degrub]

The OTA amp goes on the mast as physically close to the antenna as possible. to keep the signal to noise ratio as high as possible before the amp increases both.
The MOCA pass through of TV signal does not amplify it further. The CM 7777HD has 30 dB gain which is usually plenty. A bad termination or crimped cable would be a more likely issue.

 

[krkaufman]

Am I correct to say any splitter/tap rated above 1650MHz can work for MoCA?

“Can”...maybe. “Certainly will”...no.

Aside from the top-level splitter in a MoCA setup, where the “PoE” MoCA filter’s reflectivity enables a lower-cost path for the MoCA signal (see pgs. 17-24), MoCA relies on port hopping between outputs and so benefits from lower output port isolation in the MoCA frequency range — the opposite of what is best for a satellite setup. ‘gist: A splitter cannot be optimized for both satellite and retail MoCA (Band D) operation.

(see also)

 

[krkaufman]

Looks like no splitters could easily fit in my junction boxes,

If they’re just data boxes, could they be Dremel’d to expand the available space?

 

[krkaufman]

I've also read that MoCA can work at full bandwidth with up to -54dB (and some sites stating -57dB or -60dB) between nodes. If this is the case, sounds like I could use taps so long as the loss between MoCA nodes isn't more than -54dB?

The MoCA loss limit is 57 dB, I believe, but MoCA can adjust power, to a point, to compensate for losses. When calculating the loss budget for a path, be sure to use the attenuation associated with MoCA frequencies (for the splitters *and* coax lengths), rather than the loss value printed on the label (which typically represents the loss at the lower end of the cable spectrum).

The “MoCA Basics” presentation, linked above, provides a few good examples for loss budget calculation.

And if it is, I can just add additional nodes as repeaters?

Correct. And the pass-through connection between “repeater” adapters would be a good location for a TV signal amplifier, if needed. (e.g. Off the 4-way’s output port)

 

[krkaufman]

then maybe for OTA TV use, I should use taps to try to balance all the ports,

I’m interested in hearing why splitters, with appropriately-spec’d attenuators at each TV input, wouldn’t be an equivalent approach ... but allowing use of MoCA-compatible splitters.

 

[GnatGoSplat]

If they’re just data boxes, could they be Dremel’d to expand the available space?

It might be possible, but would still be pretty difficult as the chore of fitting a splitter into the box isn't just to get the splitter physically in there, but coax is very stiff and orientation of the cables requires a very large arc. The existing splitters just barely fit when the previous owner had them miswired, but moving the wires to correct orientation with the same splitters made it extremely difficult to fit them. It's been awhile since I pulled the covers off them and now they're behind large furniture so I'll have to take another look to see if I could make some cuts to make room for the cables. It's possible a few well-placed right-angle adapters may help as well. These jacks also all have an RJ11 phone jack in them which I'm sure doesn't help either.

I’m interested in hearing why splitters, with appropriately-spec’d attenuators at each TV input, wouldn’t be an equivalent approach ... but allowing use of MoCA-compatible splitters.

That thought had crossed my mind as well. I just liked the tap idea as they are designed so well to fit easily into a j-box. Maybe because they're used in hotels/motels where daisy-chaining coax is commonplace (or so I've read).

Unfortunately, the reasonably priced MoCA gear sold out before I could buy any so I'll have to postpone the idea for another time.

 

[krkaufman]

That thought had crossed my mind as well. I just liked the tap idea as they are designed so well to fit easily into a j-box.

Perhaps something like Antronix’s MMC1000U-B series splitters would make the junction box logistics easier? (see here; +specs)

 

[krkaufman]

Unfortunately, the reasonably priced MoCA gear sold out before I could buy any so I'll have to postpone the idea for another time.

Out of curiosity, what’s your “reasonable” price point?

 

[GnatGoSplat]

Perhaps something like Antronix’s MMC1000U-B series splitters would make the junction box logistics easier? (see here; +specs)

View attachment 34253​

I'll have to move some furniture to take one of the j-boxes apart and take some measurements, but maybe with some right-angle adapters it could work.

Out of curiosity, what’s your “reasonable” price point?

$30/each. Does that sound pretty reasonable? Seller has some more now. Although I've just realized the room I'd want one most, the CATV jack is on the wrong wall. Ugh.