Thunderbolt / Enclosure

[avtella]

@Tech Junky would it be possible for you to get me the config file for the TBU401? It’s for the RTL9210B USB to NVMe bridge chip so you have to be USB not Thunderbolt mode to get the Realtek tool to detect it.

Can use the tool in any of the newer packages:

Realtek

Realtek

www.station-drivers.com

 

[Tech Junky]

config file for the TBU401?

I could if you clue me in to what exactly you're looking for other than the driver page. Or do you just want the driver version info?

I don't see anything special going on other than it using the generic Windows drivers in USB mode.

USB

TB

TB shows as a native disk as expected and the USB shows the Acasis name but, both are using generic Windows drivers.

 

[sfx2000]

Just to clarify a couple of things, since I'm one of those Mac people to lazy to crack open a case (actually, I can't there's nothing inside to hook up to anyways).

thunderbolt 3 and thunderbolt 4 are pretty much the same - thunderbolt 4 extends things on the display side, but throughput on the interface is the same - 40Gbps

Speaking from experience of many years of Thunderbolt usage - cabling is the most important part with Thunderbolt in general - anything more than a foot or so, consider an active cable...

I've got a couple of these, and they work great...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09PQFPDHX/?tag=snbforums-20

I use a dock - CalDigit TS3+ which has a zillion ports, including breakouts for USB3.2 10Gb - the newer TS4 adds 2.5 gigabit ethernet....

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09GK8LBWS/?tag=snbforums-20

 

[avtella]

I could if you clue me in to what exactly you're looking for other than the driver page. Or do you just want the driver version info?

I don't see anything special going on other than it using the generic Windows drivers in USB mode.

USB
View attachment 50700

TB
View attachment 50701

TB shows as a native disk as expected and the USB shows the Acasis name but, both are using generic Windows drivers.

Sorry should have clarified and explained why. There was an update to the RTL9210B I believe firmware 1.3 that improved 4K random performance and 1.29.12 I believe fixed compatibility for for Samsung nvme drives, the TBU401E comes with one of the 1.29.x firmwares. I flashed to 1.32.16 all is well but I forgot to backup my device specific config file. Jus want to make sure I’m not missing any features enabled/disabled vs Realtek default.

When you load the flash tool (package usually has a “MPToolLite and MPToolLiteMini, need to use the former to get the dump) you have an option for “Device Info” It will give you a dump to a txt file. I just need that. Example is in the image from my current/updated firmware. Update was not done using the original config so just want to ensure as mentioned above any features aren’t disabled that should be enabled. The serial in the image is bogus.

 

[Tech Junky]

@sfx2000

The whole TB4/USB4 is to remove some of the licensing issues vs TB3. As for the specs they're virtually the same but, USB4 is less stringent with minimum features and tech. TB4 opened the door for AMD to start using TB in general as before IIRC it only worked w/ Intel.

I did a deep dive on it when looking for the enclosure / controller specs but, it's been awhile since then and the only thing I recall at this point is getting a controller with 8th gen chip is what gets you to TB4. The enclosures at the time though for what I was seeing were using 7th gen controllers on them. I haven't been watching things though and there might be 8th gen options out at this point since the controllers have been released for production for quite a bit of time at this point. IIRC they were already 2 years out from Intel at the time which would make it 3-3.5 years now?

Getting it to perform at faster speeds than Acasis tested / promotes them at though isn't too difficult though with the right drive / cable and method of copying data. The key is to multi thread things vs just dropping a huge folder.

@avtella

I'll look into it and shoot you a PM w/ the info I capture with the utility.

 

[avtella]

Thanks appreciate your help.

I usually cross check enclosure firmwares across brands to see if there any updates to fix issues. I had a Sabrent enclosure with a JMS583 with an old firmware that had an issue, don’t recall exactly what at the moment, and no updates from Sabrent, but found that MyDigital actually had updates for one of their enclosures for the JMS583 that fixed it, I was able to use that update file.

Granted one has to be careful as they can still brick devices if there was a new chipset revision or different firmware layout or something across brands.

 

[sfx2000]

The whole TB4/USB4 is to remove some of the licensing issues vs TB3.

My hope is that we can get some sanity around the connector itself - The USB-C plug

we're still at a point where just because the plug fits doesn't mean it works

At least with HDMI - if the plug fits...

 

[avtella]

@Tech Junky , thanks once again for the help and also the 1.32.16 update package works well. Looks like ACASIS is using the firmware (1.29.1) prior to the 1.29.12 fix for Samsung devices. Just don’t use the 1.32.46 update package as that’s from a non compatible device, it updates but will lock drive to read only till you flash back.

 

[sfx2000]

I did a deep dive on it when looking for the enclosure / controller specs but, it's been awhile since then and the only thing I recall at this point is getting a controller with 8th gen chip is what gets you to TB4. The enclosures at the time though for what I was seeing were using 7th gen controllers on them.

Forgive me for asking - what is an "8th Gen chip?"

Not challenging - just asking... anything you can share...

 

[Tech Junky]

MyDigital

I've got one of their M2's I was using in a prior to upgrade and the drive worked well. I've since gotten away from using Phison based drives. They seem to do fine for small transfers and then just crap the bed for speed for the duration after the buffer is sustained. As for USB3.x enclosures I tested a few of those as well and the best option was the Plugable which has the same controller 9210 inside of it w/o TB support.

The USB-C plug

Yeah, and now we have PD 3.1 out which bumps the power to 140W from 100W and I suspect or saw some clowns advertising 270W. Then again it's no surprise since if you get away from the likes of SS / Apple devices you get closer to those 100W charging / power speeds.

For my laptops which aren't USB PD I use a trigger cable to get 100W when mobile through the 5.5*2.5 jack on the back. Works well for keeping it topped off but, engaging the GPU will cause the connection to flap due to excessive power requested. It's still useful for things when working on the car to diagnose things through the OBD port. Or in my case tuning the ECU/TCU to unlock more performance. The SW side though leaves something to be desired though when it comes to tracing gremlins within the systems. Just enough breadcrumbs to go hunting on Google but, no quick "this is your problem" being displayed.

ACASIS is using the firmware (1.29.1)

Yeah, I didn't bother checking for FW since I was getting speeds expected from that particular controller already with what it shipped with. My concern was on the 40gbps side since I was testing with several drives and cables to pinpoint which combo performed best.

I no longer use SS drives though because to me it's a bunch of hype for a higher priced option that performs just as well. WD is my go to at this point unless there's a compelling reason to try something different. When looking at new HW to play with I'm not usually stuck on a brand but more the underlying components. Lookin for the JHL8xxx controller on TB or finding / comparing most recent USB controllers. Kind of depends on my goal at the time. I'll take my 3.1/2.8GB/s and be happy until TB5 comes about which doubles the speeds. Then TB catches up w/ Gen 4 drives at max speed.

Forgive me for asking - what is an "8th Gen chip?"

JHL8xxx.....

Products formerly Maple Ridge

Products formerly Maple Ridge product listing with links to detailed product features and specifications.

ark.intel.com

Basically it designates TB4 series in the naming Intel uses. Older tech versions like the JHL6xxx have some nuances such as not being able to have both TB/USB in the same complex.

Thunderbolt (interface) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's also a good way to see if a seller is trying to dupe you with older tech than what's actually inside. If the controller series doesn't match what's being sold then it's a good indicator to stay away from it. When I was hunting down enclosures it was a bit of a PITA with sifting out all of the older controllers that didn't allow for both USB/TB to work. I didn't want to have to switch enclosures depending on which device I was plugging into at the time. Also, it would be nice if the USB side would bump their controllers to 20gbps support instead of sticking w/ 10gbps. The issue there was you could only get a 20gbps enclosure and not add TB speed. This led me to get a TB card for $60 for the server to add the higher bandwidth to it. The card is nice though since it allows for USB PD which means I can declutter a bit of cabling and power devices close to it w/ a USB cable.

 

[sfx2000]

This has to be the cheapest cable in terms of costs when it comes to this testing though @ $9.99
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B093FQSYLB/?tag=snbforums-20

this is a passive cable - it'll work point-to-point from host to a single device

If you're going out to a docking station and thunderbolt hubbing from there to a display and storage, you'll want an active TB cable...

The Belkin cable I referenced earlier in the thread works here... for driving a 5K display, gigabit networking, and two NVME USB3 drives

I had issues going on a short passive cable from Mac/DellXPS to a dock, and then out to Display Port for external screen - not enough signal integrity to keep the 4K screen stable...

 

[Tech Junky]

@sfx2000

cabling can be a PITA. I tested a handful of them with varying results. 3ft or less is passive and if you go beyond that speeds slow down unless you go active. One of my older cables that I like a lot even did 20gbps even though it was originally sold as 10gbps. Some that promised superior speeds didn't perform as well as cheaper options.

It is what it is though... be picky and try a few different options and send the rest back. You might get lucky and get it right the first time but, it's doubtful.

Obviously your use and my use are different.

 

[sfx2000]

Yeah, and now we have PD 3.1 out which bumps the power to 140W from 100W and I suspect or saw some clowns advertising 270W. Then again it's no surprise since if you get away from the likes of SS / Apple devices you get closer to those 100W charging / power speeds.

Too bad my TS3+ won't charge my Nokia 2780 handset - the plug fits, LOL...

My MSI GE76 Raider laptop - it has a TB4 port - but if you disable the internal GPU, the port reverts from TB4 to just USB4 and runs display video thru the iGPU on the Intel chip - go figure...

And it doesn't support PD input on either the TB4/USB4 or the other USB-C port for USB3 - hands up there

PD is one of those challenges on the USB-C port, agreed - if things are to spec, it's pretty awesome - seems like not everyone reads the damn specs, or just don't care... it does get to a point, do I dare plug this device into this port?

USB-C is a story of one thousand paper cuts...

 

[avtella]

Good thing about USB4/TB4 enclosures is you no longer need two chips, one chip does it all, Satechi’s upcoming tooless TB4 enclosure for example is $120, and cheaper Chinese makes will follow as well lower costs with single chip plus no liscensing issues like TB3.

None of the USB/TB3 combo enclosures I have seen use a 20 Gbps cable chip for the USB3 portion, only the older 10 Gbps versions mostly JMS583, RTL9210B & ASM2362. I’ve seen a few enclosures with the ASM2364 20Gbps chips but none were TB3 capable.

 

[Tech Junky]

@sfx2000

USB PD is one thing but, as it stands right now it won't handle most laptop requirements for power. Unless it's an ultra light or portable chances are the demand is higher than the spec which causes the issues. Anything gaming rated with a decent GPU inside will cause issues with charging causing it to flap due to the power being requested being higher than the PD spec.

Just because something has a C port doesn't mean it's x/y/z capable. My phone has a C port but, it's also 480mbps / 100W charging. It gets around the Pd limits using proprietary methods of charging. If I want to move files to the phone or from the phone it's faster to use the SMB file explorer app than it is to plug it into a PC.

USB4/TB4 enclosures is you no longer need two chips one chip does it all

Yeah, that was my goal but, I settled for something that still works well. Not sure where all of the controllers were getting used but, nothing was on the market at the time for a single TB/USB controller. Now, Just waiting for TB5 to rear its head before bothering with upgrading or looking at devices to play with. Suppose the same goes for 802.11BE coming soon to double WIFI speeds on 6ghz. Phone has the ability but, not interested in the stupid $1500 mesh junk being sold just to make use of the 320mhz bandwidth.

 

[sfx2000]

It is what it is though... be picky and try a few different options and send the rest back. You might get lucky and get it right the first time but, it's doubtful.

Obviously your use and my use are different.

I think we're on the same page - paths are different, but discoveries are similar...

It's not so cut and dried with TB3/4 - when it works, it's awesome... when it doesn't it's in the grey zone - sometimes it's degraded, sometimes it doesn't work at all...

 

[sfx2000]

Just because something has a C port doesn't mean it's x/y/z capable. My phone has a C port but, it's also 480mbps / 100W charging. It gets around the Pd limits using proprietary methods of charging.

That's one of the problems with USB-C - like I said, just because the plug fits...

 

[Tech Junky]

That's one of the problems with USB-C - like I said, just because the plug fits...

That's why you dig into the specs. It's just a connector to get rid of all the legacy cables like DP, USB B / micro, HDMI in some instances. The older D connector for TB 1/2. Apple uses KISS because well, their users typically need simple and pay a premium for it.

When it comes down to it there's copper and connectors on the ends. How you connect is up to you and what you buy is up to you to make sure it will work. Phasing out the legacy stuff sooner would make life easier but, not every vendor wants to swap out the interface. Apple put up a good fight until the EU said change it or stop selling your stuff. Same goes for phones with esim vs physical cards.

 

[sfx2000]

Apple put up a good fight until the EU said change it or stop selling your stuff.

Apple has always done the right things with TB at least... They have a few devices that are USB only on that USB-C port, but at least they handle that. Not all Macs that have USB-C ports have Thunderbolt, BTW...

I'm all for them getting USB-C ports on all their devices - they're getting there, maybe by end of this year once the new iPhones are out...

 

[Tech Junky]

they're getting there, maybe by end of this year once the new iPhones are out..

They tend to drag their feet or use an in house connector to make it feel special. Well, that's out the door with the statement above.

Not all Macs that have USB-C ports have Thunderbolt

And not all C ports are TB.

Seems like we're just going in circles here.