tipping points for # of clients, 87u vs. 3200

[Allograft]

Anyone have any thoughts on the number of clients that one needs to have on the 5Ghz wherein the 3200's two 5Ghz networks make sense for balancing the network load compared to the 87u?

 

[RMerlin]

It's not really about how many, but about what type of devices, and what type of uses. If you have one desktop with a 1300 Mbps wireless interface that's constantly doing large transfers from your NAS and one smartphone with a 150 Mbps interface that's constantly streaming music, that very specific scenario with only two devices would work far better with an RT-AC3200 vs RT-AC87U. The idea is to avoid having slow clients (here a 1x1 150 Mbps smartphone) slow down any fast client (here a desktop with 3x3) by separating them on different radios.

So, it's not about how many devices, but what type of devices your personal network has, and how they are being used.

 

[Allograft]

So here's my setup
-Macbook Air, 2.4/5 ac - streams video a whole lot, in fact, most of the time. Consider this one a permanent fixtures that engulfs data continuously
-iPad Mini 2.4/5 n - frequently streams video
-Samsung Galaxy Tab S 2.4n - occasionally streams video
-Macbook Air, 2.4/5 n - occasionally streams video
-HP Printer on 2.4 n - always on

The first five can be all going at the same time with some regularity

-Macbook Pro 2.4/5 ac (mine) - not much video, but I want anything that upload/download to do so as fast as possible. Some files can be large. Tends to be the computer that I download OS updates onto for installation on flash drive to apply to household computers, phones, tablets. Don't want to wait if I don't have to.

-iPhone 5s 2.4/5 n - occasionally streams, but if streaming then either the iPad Mini won't be or online or the Samsung won't be.
-iPhone 6 2.4/5 ac
-iPhone 6s 2.4/5 ac MIMO, sometimes uses WiFi calling
-iPad Air 2 2.4/5 ac MIMO - might stream
-a second iPhone 5s 2.4/5 n - occasionally streams
-second Macbook Pro 2.4/5 ac - occasionally streams
-3 Windows laptops, infrequently used. all on 2.4. One is b, one is g, one is n
-iPhone 4 2.4 n - rarely used

Also, I'm in a very high density, urban environment. There are at least 30 other wifi networks right around me and in range.

 

[sfx2000]

It's not really about how many, but about what type of devices, and what type of uses. If you have one desktop with a 1300 Mbps wireless interface that's constantly doing large transfers from your NAS and one smartphone with a 150 Mbps interface that's constantly streaming music, that very specific scenario with only two devices would work far better with an RT-AC3200 vs RT-AC87U. The idea is to avoid having slow clients (here a 1x1 150 Mbps smartphone) slow down any fast client (here a desktop with 3x3) by separating them on different radios.

So, it's not about how many devices, but what type of devices your personal network has, and how they are being used.

I would think the real tipping point for any router/AP combo would be the number of concurrent sessions on the router side of the device - obviously more wireless clients will cause performance issues there, but the real limitation, and I speak from experience as a device designer/developer, is the router side...

 

[thiggins]

You could benefit from an AC3200 class router. But you will probably have to assign devices manually. The "Smart Connect" feature isn't very.

 

[Allograft]

You could benefit from an AC3200 class router. But you will probably have to assign devices manually. The "Smart Connect" feature isn't very.

Do any of the other 3200 or upcoming 5300 devices have better Smart Connect distribution of the load, or it's a bright idea that everyone is having but no one has perfected?

 

[RMerlin]

Do any of the other 3200 or upcoming 5300 devices have better Smart Connect distribution of the load, or it's a bright idea that everyone is having but no one has perfected?

Some manufacturers have a simpler set of rules than others. Some are more configurable than others (if you have the patience to do so). But ultimately, part of the problem lies in how well the clients handle being bounced around to a different radio on-the-fly. Some don't gracefully handle it.

Ultimate stability will always be with you manually selecting which radio you want to connect to.

 

[thiggins]

Do any of the other 3200 or upcoming 5300 devices have better Smart Connect distribution of the load, or it's a bright idea that everyone is having but no one has perfected?

Can't speak for products not on the market yet.

As Merlin said, part of the problem is that clients fight being steered.

In general, I don't see anyone singing high praise for any Smart Connect implementation.

 

[Allograft]

So, gentleman, in the scenario above, what would be the best was to arrange the clients on a 3 network (2-5Ghz;1-2.4GHz) device?

 

[RMerlin]

So, gentleman, in the scenario above, what would be the best was to arrange the clients on a 3 network (2-5Ghz;1-2.4GHz) device?

I would personally disable Smart Connect, and set up three separate SSIDs.

Keep the devices that need long range but low throughput (smartphones for example) on the 2.4 GHz radio.

Have all 5 Ghz devices that are only 1x1 or 2x2 (mostly tablets) on the first 5 GHz band.
Put your computers/laptops on the second 5 GHz band

If you frequently have two devices doing a lot of data transfers at the same time, you could also split them between the two 5 Ghz radios.

The idea is to manually assign devices to specific radios, by using three different SSIDs.

That's kinda what I do here with a simple dual band router. I keep my smartphone on the 2.4 Ghz band (along with the Chromecast) because it never does anything that requires high performance, and it frees up the 5 Ghz radio for my laptop. Just by using two different SSIDs.

 

[Allograft]

And could I have the printer on 2.4 GHz network, some computer on 5, band 1 and some computers on 5, band 2, and all could share the printer? So essentially, I would have three SSID's but all for the same intranet communication. And guest network units would not be able access intranet or communicate with other devices?

 

[RMerlin]

And could I have the printer on 2.4 GHz network, some computer on 5, band 1 and some computers on 5, band 2, and all could share the printer? So essentially, I would have three SSID's but all for the same intranet communication. And guest network units would not be able access intranet or communicate with other devices?

It doesn't matter on which band a device is connected, all your devices will be able to talk to one another. Same way that a wireless printer can be printed from a wired desktop, for example.

 

[Allograft]

It really starts sounding like the AC5300 is going to be a good unit for what we're discussing, Smart Connect or not. Hopefully, it will be better than the 87u experience for me. Is the general feeling that Broadcom components and support are preferable to QTN's?

 

[thiggins]

It really starts sounding like the AC5300 is going to be a good unit for what we're discussing, Smart Connect or not. Hopefully, it will be better than the 87u experience for me. Is the general feeling that Broadcom components and support are preferable to QTN's?

I don't know why you would jump in on a very expensive early-to-market product that has no practical benefit. But, it's your money.

 

[Allograft]

I don't know why you would jump in on a very expensive early-to-market product that has no practical benefit. But, it's your money.

Hmmm, in your experience, do these devices need several months to mature before buying? I can appreciate that. I'm not the bleeding edge type, I prefer just working, but my router died a year ago after numerous years. I thought that the 87u would be a nice choice with modern tech for five years or so, but haven't been thrilled. I thought it was the QTN SDK issue, but I infer you believe that a more metered approach is indicated. Maybe my fantasy was that the Broadcom equipment in the 5300 would provide the balance of reliability and feature set for which I was hoping

 

[thiggins]

Hmmm, in your experience, do these devices need several months to mature before buying?

God, yes!
MU-MIMO 802.11ac is hellaciously complex technology that is being pushed to market because retailers want new stuff to sell. And gullible consumers who don't care about price buy it because they think / hope it will improve their crappy Wi-Fi.

The big number on the box is primarily a marketing gimmick. Devices can only achieve the maximum link rates they are designed for, so the big-number routers do no good.

MU-MIMO is now in its second round, with the first Quantenna based products failing to move from "MU-MIMO ready" to working MU-MIMO. Not that it matters anyway, with precious few MU-MIMO enabled devices available and many of those China only.

Since smartphones rule, they will determine how fast MU-MIMO gets deployed. And it seems the dominant players (Apple and Samsung) are in no rush.

I would NOT go for AC5300 at this point. The bigger numbers require 1024 QAM support, which is a real science experiment at this point. If you could get a device that supported it, you would get the top link rate only with a very strong (same room, maybe next room) signal.

 

[Allograft]

God, yes!
MU-MIMO 802.11ac is hellaciously complex technology that is being pushed to market because retailers want new stuff to sell. And gullible consumers who don't care about price buy it because they think / hope it will improve their crappy Wi-Fi.

The big number on the box is primarily a marketing gimmick. Devices can only achieve the maximum link rates they are designed for, so the big-number routers do no good.

MU-MIMO is now in its second round, with the first Quantenna based products failing to move from "MU-MIMO ready" to working MU-MIMO. Not that it matters anyway, with precious few MU-MIMO enabled devices available and many of those China only.

Since smartphones rule, they will determine how fast MU-MIMO gets deployed. And it seems the dominant players (Apple and Samsung) are in no rush.

I would NOT go for AC5300 at this point. The bigger numbers require 1024 QAM support, which is a real science experiment at this point. If you could get a device that supported it, you would get the top link rate only with a very strong (same room, maybe next room) signal.

Good to know, my old Motorola Surfboard and then a Verion FiOS combo modem/router just worked out of the box...though that was g, then n. I guess with most of my stuff having ac, I thought the area was more mature than it is. I guess the most parsimonious route is to limp along with my 87u. Hope everything gets resolved with it and QTN, and then, maybe at the end of the cycle for the 5300 (2017), or once even it has a mature successors (late 2017-mid 2018), then all these new fangled concepts of ac, Smart Connect, MU-MIMO will be more fully baked and really ready for consistent, reliable, even if not cutting edge use