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Trendnet AC1750 or Linksys EA6500 or Asus AC66U

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scooter4483

Occasional Visitor
Hi,

Just like the title states. Wondering what opinions people have for my home office. The house is split level and I am switching to Comcast(most likely). I've had basic netgear ($45) routers in the past with no issues. I want AC as I know we will have AC based devices within 6 months in my house. We have two laptops, 1 desktop, smart dvd player, smart tv, and two cell phones in the house. At any one point, three devices are streaming. I have ATT with 6mb down as my max available in my area. It was simply okay. With comcast, will have 25mb down. I dont mind spending up to $160 on a router as I know it will be around for at least 5-8 years. I've read pros and cons on each device. The Netgear nighthawk would be ideal but it is pricey. I would add one external HD to the router. I thought the trendnet would be solid but hear many have issues with distance and need constant reboots. The router will be at least 30 ft away from the router. Honestly, I think I am leaning toward the Linksys. Please share any experiences or input for home use.

Thank you
 
Can only talk about ASUS and TP-Link. I own the AC66U and the Archer C7. Both have been extremely solid and will handle your situation just fine. The Archer C7 is usually 40 buck or so cheaper than the AC66U but is known to have compatibility issues with Apple devices (connection drops mostly). The Archer C7 also has a bit limiting interface (no VPN, no SSH) so if those are important for you, grab the AC66U.

Range is better on the AC66U as it uses three dual-band external antenna's while Archer C7 uses 3 internal for 2.4 and 3 external for the 5ghz band.
 
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Thanks. I've heard that a lot of people are satisfied with the asus. Obviously structures in the house contribute if a signal reaches a device or not. What is this new beamform technology or whatever it is called? Anyone else on input?
 
Hi,

Just like the title states. Wondering what opinions people have for my home office. The house is split level and I am switching to Comcast(most likely). I've had basic netgear ($45) routers in the past with no issues. I want AC as I know we will have AC based devices within 6 months in my house. We have two laptops, 1 desktop, smart dvd player, smart tv, and two cell phones in the house. At any one point, three devices are streaming. I have ATT with 6mb down as my max available in my area. It was simply okay. With comcast, will have 25mb down. I dont mind spending up to $160 on a router as I know it will be around for at least 5-8 years. I've read pros and cons on each device. The Netgear nighthawk would be ideal but it is pricey. I would add one external HD to the router. I thought the trendnet would be solid but hear many have issues with distance and need constant reboots. The router will be at least 30 ft away from the router. Honestly, I think I am leaning toward the Linksys. Please share any experiences or input for home use.

Thank you

If you're going AC, it's best to get the AC1900 than AC1750 (even though you don't need the 150 Mbps extra from TurboQAM) because they have full dual core speeds, double the RAM (256 vs 128) with USB 3.0 for fast storage transfer. ASUS AC66U's CPU is outdated by today's AC routers (600 MHz single core vs 800 MHz - 1.2 GHz dual core from today's routers) and it's not worth to spend $150 for that hardware. With Archer C7 v2, the price is right but then it's range is much shorter than AC1900 routers and ASUS AC66U itself.

Linksys EA6500 is a good option for an AC1750 and just make sure to get the V2 version which is easily identified by the USB 3.0 port. It has a dual core CPU (I would assume it's 800 MHz just like the ASUS RT-AC68U). Can't say anything about firmware stability though.

The best way to purchase an AC router IMO is to find the router with the best and most stable firmware (rather than hardware specs) and then range is the 2nd in priority. I chose the WRT1900AC due to its 5 GHz very long range (had to play with antenna position to get it), connection stability at 5 GHz band (it has never disconnected me) and of course speed (I get 50 MB/s wireless transfer rate from an el-cheapo 32GB USB 3.0 NTFS formatted flash drive attached to the back of WRT1900AC to my laptop with internal 802.11ac adapter)

Added info:

Beamforming is 802.11ac's way of improving throughput at mid-range (it doesn't improve the range at all so don't be fooled by manufacturers). First gen AC1750 (those with single core CPUs such as ASUS RT-AC66U) don't have "implicit beamforming" which basically allows "partial" beamforming to all clients regardless of supporting beamforming or not. Clients that support beamforming will be considered as "explicit beamforming" which basically supports the whole beamforming scheme on the 802.11ac specs. 2nd Gen AC1750s (the ones with USB 3.0 ports) supports the "implicit beamforming" feature but some routers have this feature disabled and hidden.
 
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Thanks. I do not want to spend more than $160 on a router. I like the linksys parameters. To me it's neck and neck with linksys and asus. It might come down to price for me. I hope I just plug it in and never really have to reboot it.
 
Thanks. I do not want to spend more than $160 on a router. I like the linksys parameters. To me it's neck and neck with linksys and asus. It might come down to price for me. I hope I just plug it in and never really have to reboot it.

IMO,
If you need router features and range, ASUS RT-AC66U is the choice. If you need USB 3.0, want a newer hardware, get the Linksys EA6500v2. Regardless of purchase, you should be fine with both. If you do choose the ASUS RT-AC66U, hopefully you won't experience any sudden performance drops as time moves on until reboot like what I had experienced before (prior to my WRT1900AC purchase). To know more about this just go find a review that says "Take it from a computer engineer: do not buy this router" which perfectly described my experience with it.
 
Thanks. I've heard that a lot of people are satisfied with the asus. Obviously structures in the house contribute if a signal reaches a device or not. What is this new beamform technology or whatever it is called? Anyone else on input?

Beamforming is basically a directional signal transmission/reception technique. Without writing a long reply to explain everything, here's a link http://www.quantenna.com/beamforming.html
 
Why do you have a hard cap at $160?

The thing is, the Netgear R7000 is A LOT more router for the money and it runs about $180. What makes the extra $20 a show stopper?

Not being critical, just asking...
 
Why do you have a hard cap at $160?

The thing is, the Netgear R7000 is A LOT more router for the money and it runs about $180. What makes the extra $20 a show stopper?

Not being critical, just asking...

No biggie on the question. I saw pricing for the routers i was looking and it seems like they can be gotten for under $160, i know for another $20 i would be really set but if i can get the nighthawk for $150, im all over it (miraculous labor day special fingers crossed) :)
 
Beamforming is basically a directional signal transmission/reception technique. Without writing a long reply to explain everything, here's a link http://www.quantenna.com/beamforming.html

I will quibble with Quantenna's description in two/three areas. One, they don't mention it doesn't really extend range, but it can significantly increase signal strength at even long range, it just won't EXTEND the maximum range really at all.

Two, 12-25dBm increase seems massively optimistic. I have seen a MAXIMUM of about a 8dBm gain in signal strength...which is still a very significant gain in signal strength. Typical is not that good, though it might work better if I had a 1:1 client and my base station was 4:4 instead of 3:3.

Three, the article also doesn't mention that both the client must support beamforming (ALL 802.11ac clients do. Almost no 802.11n clients do, as it was an optional spec and pretty much no one implemented it in 11n). Also, the fewer spatial streams the client has, the higher the possible gain. This is because when beamforming is done, you are combining the timing and frequency of each radio chain transmission to get the signals to form constructive interferance in the direction of the client device to increase the radio signal. The issue though is that some of the signals will suffer deconstructive interfence. So what you might get with a 4:4 router is one spatial stream that sees +8dBm of gain, one with +6dBm of gain, one with -4dBm of gain and one with -7dBm of gain. Or if it changes it around a little, you might see one with +11dBm of gain and the other three with a loss. Just depends on the kind of client it is connecting to.

Anyway, you can only do beamforming if the clients has FEWER spatial streams than the base station. This is because there will be spatial streams that suffer signal loss. So a 3:3 router connecting to a 3:3 client will not perform beamforming, only if it was connecting to a 2:2 or 1:1 client, and the fewer spatial streams the client has and the more the base station has, the higher the possible signal gain.

Again, this only really works at medium and long ranges, but does not effectively extend the range. It can significantly increase performance at long range though.

Example, I have an N600 router and an AC1750 router. Connecting on 2.4GHz to prevent there from being too much bias, the AC1750 router is only a bit faster, about 15% faster same room and only around 2dBm higher signal strength. At medium distance though with a floor, around 30ft and a couple of walls in the way, that N600 router is at -70dBm of signal strength and that AC1750 router is at -60dBm of signal strength. That is -10dBm higher...but maybe only 8 of that is from beamforming as same room, the AC1750 was already 2dBm higher signal strength. At that location in 40MHz mode, the N600 provides 4.5-5MB/sec of Tx ability to my laptop (with a 2:2 802.11ac wifi card in it). The AC1750 on the other hand provides 8.5-9.5MB/sec of Tx ability, a difference of nearly 80% more throughput!

Same room, it was only 15% difference, but at medium range it was an 80% increase!

Move somewhat further away, only 10ft, but with a 4ft masonry chimney in the way and the signal strength plumets to -86dBm with the N600 router and it is -81dBm for the AC1750 router...a difference of 4dBm...and maybe 2dBm of that might be from beamforming. There the N600 can manage 2.2-2.5MB/sec with 40MHz mode and the AC1750 hits only 3MB/sec, a relatively small difference and close to statistically insignificant when looking at same room, but still, around a 20-25% increase in throughput, compared to 15% increase same room...and repeatable for both. That might be more the difference in component quality in the AC1750 router for processing a very weak signal than it is in actually higher signal strength.

Move closer, like down in the basement where the router(s) sits (tests were done with the routers in the exact same place, obviously swapping them out), but with a wall and 15ft or so inbetween and we are back down to only a 20-25% increase in performance with the AC1750 router on 2.4GHz 40MHz over the N600, fairly close to the same room performance difference of the two routers, so maybe a marginal gain from beamforming.

So beamforming CAN help out and help out hugely in some cases. The areas/scenarios where you are going to see a significant increase in performance are limited though. I haven't tested every single square foot of my house, just 5 locations, but compared to the baseline same room performance between the N600 and AC1750 routers, beamforming (or maybe better signal processing? My router does not have the ability to turn beamforming off) seemed to increase performance by 5-10% in 3 of those locations, 15% in one location and 65% in one location.
 
Yes, I agree Quantenna's article doesn't go in depth but I think they wanted to keep it short and superficial for regular people to get a grasp of what it is. And companies love to overblow figures, ya know... ;)

I can explain how Beamforming works to some degree, but don't ask me to go deep into it.
 
Also, the fewer spatial streams the client has, the higher the possible gain.
Is this based on observation? It contradicts the general rule that more RF chains (spatial streams) provide higher gain.

Anyway, you can only do beamforming if the clients has FEWER spatial streams than the base station. This is because there will be spatial streams that suffer signal loss. So a 3:3 router connecting to a 3:3 client will not perform beamforming, only if it was connecting to a 2:2 or 1:1 client, and the fewer spatial streams the client has and the more the base station has, the higher the possible signal gain.
Could you please cite your source for this information? To my knowledge, there is no such limitation in the 802.11 spec.
 
I have the book and have read and referred to that chapter many times. I don't see the beamforming limitations that you have described. Can you cite them specifically? Thanks.
 
Blargh, wrong source. http://blog.airtightnetworks.com/bang-for-the-buck-with-explicit-beam-forming-in-802-11ac/

That is the correct one that specifically mentions the trade-off between spatial streams and beamforming gain.

I believe some of the point is, that if you want to get a gain with beamforming, the more streams you have from the basestation, the better.

With MIMO, you have an increased gain from maximizing the number of total spatial streams on both ends. With explicit beamforming, you need to subtract out spatial streams* to increase gain, which can be above and beyond the gain you'd receive from multiple spatial streams, at the expense of not using one or more of the possible spatial streams as an actual spatial stream, but as a beamforming transmitter.

At least that is my understanding of the various articles I have read on explicit beamforming.

*The asterix being that you might not, but in a lot of circumstances you'll need to as the spatial streams with explicit beamforming are likely to have different signal strengths, possibly VERY different signal strengths and you can only use the MCS of the weakest spatial stream. So with a many spatial stream client, the effective gain can be minimal or nothing for E-BF, but a single spatial stream client can use the very highest gain spatial stream, allowing it to have very significant beamforming gain.
 
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So, I guess to summarize my above, E-BF generally results in differential gain on each spatial stream, with some increasing significantly, some modestly and some possibly losing signal strength. An N numbered spatial stream client used with an N numbered spatial stream basestation under a lot of scenarios is likely to get no effective gain, or little. An N-1 numbered spatial stream client though can drop the lowest gain spatial stream, looking at only the higher gains one, so is likely to see a higher effective gain. An N-2, can drop the two lowest gain spatial streams, for even higher effective gain and so on.

They do not have the effective gain which MIMO can provide, but they do receive, likely, greater benefit from E-BF. Which also repositions multi-antenna routers, as E-BF can possibly be more pronounced for low number of spatial stream clients.

And of course I might have totally misinterpreted everything I have read about beamforming.
 
Thanks for the reference. I read through it and it matches up with my understanding of Beamforming. But it contradicts this statement you made in your initial post, i.e.

...you can only do beamforming if the clients has FEWER spatial streams than the base station.
This is incorrect. Beamforming can be done even if if AP and STA support the same # of spatial streams. It just may not provide as much benefit as the case where # of AP streams > # of STA streams.

The simple general point is that the best chance of performance improvement from beamforming is at medium signal levels and with 1x1 clients. 1x1 clients can't get additional signal gain from multiple streams. So their only chance at signal gain improvement is via beamforming.
 
Thanks for the reference. I read through it and it matches up with my understanding of Beamforming. But it contradicts this statement you made in your initial post, i.e.

This is incorrect. Beamforming can be done even if if AP and STA support the same # of spatial streams. It just may not provide as much benefit as the case where # of AP streams > # of STA streams.

The simple general point is that the best chance of performance improvement from beamforming is at medium signal levels and with 1x1 clients. 1x1 clients can't get additional signal gain from multiple streams. So their only chance at signal gain improvement is via beamforming.

You are correct. I had missread it originally. Though the gist does seem to be that when like number of spatial streams are involved with the client and basestation, beam forming often provides little to no benefit. Not that it cannot be done at all.

I do think it would be an interesting test if you ever do a beamforming test down the road. Try it with AP and STA both with 3:3 (or 4:4 or whatever), then try it with AP 3:3/4:4 and STA 2:2 and then with STA 1:1 just to see what kind of impact it has at various attenuation levels with beamforming on versus off (if the STA supports toggling it on/off).
 
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I do think it would be an interesting test if you ever do a beamforming test down the road. Try it with AP and STA both with 3:3 (or 4:4 or whatever), then try it with AP 3:3/4:4 and STA 2:2 and then with STA 1:1 just to see what kind of impact it has at various attenuation levels with beamforming on versus off (if the STA supports toggling it on/off).

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-features/32329-does-beamforming-really-work

I will revisit this with a 1x1 client at some point. The only beamforming demo I have seen that impressed me was at Quantenna. But it was done with development boards. I will have to look at the ASUS RT-AC87 once firmware settles down.
 

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