Weird Switch Problem - Need Help

[timby]

Well I've exhausted my limited expertise on an issue I'm experiencing with my home network. I hope this august crowd my be of assistance.

I've two PCs and a Game console tied together by 2 Netgear Gig (605s) switches. Everything has been fine until recently when the one switch started resetting due to errors. The first machine is a newer Vista machine with 2 1Gig NICs. The other PC is an older machine with a 10/100 NIC. The game console has a 1 Gig NIC. Now for the weird part. This first switch resets even if the game console and PC are off. However, if I turn of the second switch the first one works fine. I've switched the first switch out with a known good 10/100 and another known good 1 gig switch and the situation remains. The cable between the switches is CAT6. I've replaced the cabling between the switches a couple of times.

This scenario has worked for nearly a year. I'm out of ideas. I could really use some ideas.

 

[scotty]

Hmm, that is a wierd one. One thing I've noticed with switches over the years is that when they go, they [often] do the oddest things and cause the wierdest problems, like broadcast storms and the like. I've seen cases where one bad switch can bring a whole network to its knees. Sounds like this might be the case, the second switch might be causing network storms. Sound like this might be the case with your second switch.

Your post wasn't 100% clear, but it sounds like the 2nd switch is causing the headaches (you say everything works fine with it unplugged).

 

[timby]

Scotty

Thanks for the input. We have done as you stated and the situation still exist.

See attached for clarification.

Please provide possible fixes for problem.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Sometimes switches go. Two solutions I can quickly think of...
Eliminate the need for a second switch. Run 2x long cables from Game Console and OldPC all the way to your first switch located by your New PC. Run the good switch there.

Or replace the switch that locks up

 

[timby]

StoneCat

We've replaced both switches, swapped them out and replaced the cables between the switches.

That's what makes this so irritating. The first switch works fine with just two PCs connected. However, if we connect the other one (game console and older PC) the storms occur and the switch resets. The devices don't have to be on for this to occur.

I don't even know who to call out to check.

The reason this is so maddening is that the setup work since last December and now it's acting up.

 

[thiggins]

Where is the "Cat5e" cable on the first switch going to?

Think carefully, did anything change between when you didn't have the problem and when it started?

Unplug the game console and older PC, one at a time from the second switch and see if/when the problem stops.

Do any of the devices have a wireless LAN connection?

 

[timby]

Tim

That was the first thing I ask my son. What has changed. We first thought that it was a driver issue with the NIC cards on his PC. So we uninstalled the new driver and installed the old one. The problem persists. So we replaced the original CAT5 cable that was between the first switch and the second switch with a new CAT6 cable. The problem persists. So we removed the second switch and ran the cables from the PC & game console to the first switch. The problems persists. It seems that anytime 2 Gig NICs are connected to the first switch the problem occurs. We even tried setting the new PC's NIC to 10/100. This doesn't solve the problem.

However, we may be on to a fix. I had an older Netgear switch (10/100) that wasn't in use. So we swapped put the switch with it and the problems seems to be fixed. It seems that all the newer Netgear 1G switches seem to have this problem. We have 3 of them and they all do the same.

So this weekend I ordered a new HP J9077A 10/100/1000Mbps ProCurve Switch 1400-8G from Newegg and see if we can get the Gig network back up.

Anyone have any pro's or con's about the HP switches. We don't need a managed switch.

Thanks

 

[scotty]

Good to see you're getting to the bottom of the problem. Perhaps a power surge nailed all of your switches...?

I like HP's procurve switches myself. They're solid, business class switches with a good, lifetime warranty. The few times I've need to use the warranty HP has been superb (their business service isn't even in the same league as their consumer level service, IMO). They tend to be a little more expensive than roughly comparable Linksys and DLink switches, but in my opinion they're in a bit of a different league tailoring to a different clientele. But with the price tag I also tend to notice beefier processors and more memory in thier more basic switches.

 

[thiggins]

Thanks for doing the experiments. I have had incompatibility problems with NICs and switches in the past. But the symptom is usually that the NIC doesn't connect at all.

Is there a wireless network also in use?

So the problem only occurs when you connect the game console and PC with the gigabit NIC to either of the gigabit switches, right?

If the GS605 uses the same chipset as the GS608, then it's Broadcom. The D-Link DGS-2208 uses a Vitesse chipset, which might behave differently. Lots cheaper than the HP switch if you need to swap out the switch.

I tend to suspect something wonky on the PC with the gigabit NIC. Is the gigabit NIC built-in or a card? If it's a card, try moving it to the other PC.

I'd also try a PCI or PCIe gigabit NIC. Try to get one with a different chipset than is used on the current NIC. If that fixes it, it would be cheaper than a managed switch!

 

[madal]

More Gigabit Switch Madness!!!!

I was going to start my own thread, but my problem seemed to be an appropriate addition to this one.

First off, who QAs these things? I know they're (desktop gigabit switches) cheap and usually carry the "Made in China" seal of quality, but c'mon!

First off, about a year ago I had a Netgear GS105 5-port "ProSafe" GB switch give up the ghost at the ripe old age of 6 months. It just stopped working, and all the indicators would simply flash. Fortunately, it does make an excellent paper-weight (really, I'm not kidding). And it was pretty, in that my then 2-year old thought it was all Christmas-y, with the flashing lights and all.....But this is supposed to be Netgear's ProSafe, i.e. quality, line of products. I can't say that I have EVER been impressed with any of Netgear's products. All garbage, as far as I'm concerned....

So, to replace it, I bought a Linksys SD-2005. About a week ago, I started having weird problems on my network. My setup is:

Motorola SB5100 cable modem --> Linksys WRT-54GL (flashed w/ DD-WRT) --> Gigabit switch --> 3 different boxes with wiring left out for a 4th box, should need be.

My problems began when my main box started experiencing painfully slow internet downloads. I kept visiting dslreports.com to do speed tests to confirm it. 100-300 Kb/s downloads 3000-4000 Kb/s uploads. The weird thing was that neither of the other 2 boxes suffered from this problem, getting 4000-6000 Kb/s downloads (?!). So then the quest began. Re-flashing the router, endless reboots, switching cables around (all Cat 6 and <20 feet per link), and nothing; the problem persisted. Then my father sent me his box to debug, and I used the spare wiring that I described. The problem also occurred with that box too!!! So when I bypassed the GB switch and hooked directly into the router......problem fixed. So why did 2 boxes work fine and 2 not, through the SD-2005? Really good question. But I believe it is because the affected boxes BOTH had Broadcom BCM5751 ethernet controllers, while the working ones both had Intel network controllers. Tim H, any possible explanation for why this would happen? it doesn't make much sense to me, and there's little possible way that I'd be able to get Linksys' technical support/customer service to understand this and get me an RMA....

So I got me something cheap, a D-Link DGS-2205, and all is working as it should.....for now.

Is this a typical failure rate? 2 switches in a year?

So, Timby, to make a long story short: go ahead and get yourself another switch, but those HPs are pretty pricey. I've always had decent luck with SMC and D-Link.

Madal

 

[thiggins]

Interesting story, Madal.

Netgear's ProSafe products have lifetime warranty. Did you try to get the GS105 replaced?

As for possible Intel / Broadcom incompatibilities, all I can say is that anything is possible. As I noted, I have had incompatibility problems in the past with various combinations of NICs and switches.

 

[timby]

Thanks for doing the experiments. I have had incompatibility problems with NICs and switches in the past. But the symptom is usually that the NIC doesn't connect at all.

Is there a wireless network also in use?

So the problem only occurs when you connect the game console and PC with the gigabit NIC to either of the gigabit switches, right?

If the GS605 uses the same chipset as the GS608, then it's Broadcom. The D-Link DGS-2208 uses a Vitesse chipset, which might behave differently. Lots cheaper than the HP switch if you need to swap out the switch.

I tend to suspect something wonky on the PC with the gigabit NIC. Is the gigabit NIC built-in or a card? If it's a card, try moving it to the other PC.

I'd also try a PCI or PCIe gigabit NIC. Try to get one with a different chipset than is used on the current NIC. If that fixes it, it would be cheaper than a managed switch!

It only happens when we connect two 1gig devices to the switch. They don't have to be on to cause the failure. The Newer PC has 2 1gig NICs (on the ASUS motherboard). Both of the connections fail. The Game console has a 1gig NIC in it (don't know what brand). The funny thing is when I hook up the old Netgear 5 port switch the problem goes away. However, that makes the network 100meg and not 1gig.

I've hopes that the new HP switch will eliminate the problem. I didn't want to invest in another cheap switch to try and resolve the issues as we had already invested a lot of time and money.

The other strange problem is that the 8 port netgear switch in the back room seems to work with multiple 1gig devices connected. However, when we moved it into the other room it had the same failure.

I don't understand.... This isn't rocket science ... or is it....

I'm still open to suggestions ....

 

[timby]

Thanks for doing the experiments. I have had incompatibility problems with NICs and switches in the past. But the symptom is usually that the NIC doesn't connect at all.

Is there a wireless network also in use?

So the problem only occurs when you connect the game console and PC with the gigabit NIC to either of the gigabit switches, right?

If the GS605 uses the same chipset as the GS608, then it's Broadcom. The D-Link DGS-2208 uses a Vitesse chipset, which might behave differently. Lots cheaper than the HP switch if you need to swap out the switch.

I tend to suspect something wonky on the PC with the gigabit NIC. Is the gigabit NIC built-in or a card? If it's a card, try moving it to the other PC.

I'd also try a PCI or PCIe gigabit NIC. Try to get one with a different chipset than is used on the current NIC. If that fixes it, it would be cheaper than a managed switch!

Thanks for the input ....

If the new switch doesn't do the trick I'll try getting another NIC Card for the PC.

Does this happen in the corporate world? If so how do they ever get a domain setup with 100's of PCs?

 

[tipstir]

Everything comes from China today and soon cars will too! But for now next time check the series of numbers on the box or where you buy the switch from. I had purchased two GS605 and not even a week then one of the ports had failed to connect at 1 Gig. Faulty port. That got replaced back the store I got it from. Netgear would have charged me for shipping it back to them $16 bucks. The ProSafe is metal case over the plastic shell version. Still either one does the trick. 4x Linksys, 1x dlink switches I never had good luck with those the ports tend to fail within a year. I've been using Netgear Prosafe 6 years at work so they seem to hold up and are quick.

Your problem could be anything.

Check the Ethernet cables they do wear out also..
Router
Switches
More heavy usage they do fail no better than those that cost over 100 bucks. Heat to circuits shorten the life though. Make sure you give them enough ventilation.

 

[scotty]

Is this a typical failure rate? 2 switches in a year?

So, Timby, to make a long story short: go ahead and get yourself another switch, but those HPs are pretty pricey. I've always had decent luck with SMC and D-Link.

Madal

I've seen the cheapest of cheap brand switches last, without fail, for years. I've also seen fairly good Linksys and D-Link switches die repeatedly. Part of it's luck, part of it's brand, part of it's production run, part of it is whether it's a full moon. I could give you the emails of at least a dozen people who have sworn to never touch [Insert Brand Here] again. I think you've had some bad luck, that happens.

Out of personal experience, I tend to stick with HP [or Cisco] for switches, in anything above a home-user environment. But I'm the 'over-engineer the solution and play it really safe' kind of person. Not everyone shares that opinion, or even has the luxury to do things that way, and that's fine.

I could be mistaken, but isn't Netgear supposed to be a 'Value' brand? I seem to remember hearing that they re-brand D-Link (?) - but this was like 8 years ago so I could be way off the mark. Ironically I dont think I've touched a Netgear product in as many years.

 

[thiggins]

Does this happen in the corporate world? If so how do they ever get a domain setup with 100's of PCs?

Scotty's post is pretty much on the mark. The only thing I would add is that there is a high emphasis on trying to eke out some profit on these things, which have very thin margins. So that means saving pennies wherever possible.

One place where they save is on heatsinks. Speed = heat and a heavily loaded gigabit switch chip can generate a good deal of heat. In the 8 port gigabit roundup, 5 of the 6 switches had heatsinks (including the Netgear GS108 and GS608. But it's possible that they have been removed in later builds or not used in 5 port models. And even when heatsinks are used, enclosure thermal design isn't that great. High chip temperatures definitely shorten life.

One of the things you supposedly buy with "business" grade products is more robust design. But you don't really get that with inexpensive 5/8 port unmanaged switches.

 

[thiggins]

I could be mistaken, but isn't Netgear supposed to be a 'Value' brand? I seem to remember hearing that they re-brand D-Link (?) - but this was like 8 years ago so I could be way off the mark.

Depends on what you mean by "value brand". Although I am sure that they would disagree, Linksys, D-Link and Netgear are primarily consumer networking companies. But all have "business" product lines and they all aggressively pursue business from business users and service providers who don't like high fail rates.
All the U.S. networking companies use an assortment of primarily Taiwanese OEM/ODMs, who do business with all companies. D-Link had an OEM/ODM unit, but sold it back in 2003. So it's unlikely that Netgear rebrands anything from D-Link.

 

[timby]

I've seen the cheapest of cheap brand switches last, without fail, for years. I've also seen fairly good Linksys and D-Link switches die repeatedly. Part of it's luck, part of it's brand, part of it's production run, part of it is whether it's a full moon. I could give you the emails of at least a dozen people who have sworn to never touch [Insert Brand Here] again. I think you've had some bad luck, that happens.

Out of personal experience, I tend to stick with HP [or Cisco] for switches, in anything above a home-user environment. But I'm the 'over-engineer the solution and play it really safe' kind of person. Not everyone shares that opinion, or even has the luxury to do things that way, and that's fine.

I could be mistaken, but isn't Netgear supposed to be a 'Value' brand? I seem to remember hearing that they re-brand D-Link (?) - but this was like 8 years ago so I could be way off the mark. Ironically I don't think I've touched a Netgear product in as many years.

My comment is that since most folks tend to be home users and the switches don't work for 1 gig applications then are we being sold a bill of goods. These are non-consumable products. They should last years without failure (not weeks or months).

I've got 3 Netgear switches as well as a Netgear router (not in use because of FIOS). The consumer shouldn't be forced to buy a high end switch for home use. My Network is used for local gaming and all the units are placed for optimal ventilation.

Again this is not rocket science. If the products are supposed to be designed for 1gig use and I'm not overclocking or otherwise abusing it then why don't they work? I guess that's the $64 question.

The new switch is suppose to be here tomorrow. So we'll see how this plays out.

Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions.

 

[thiggins]

My comment is that since most folks tend to be home users and the switches don't work for 1 gig applications then are we being sold a bill of goods. These are non-consumable products. They should last years without failure (not weeks or months).

You are absolutely right. But, unfortunately, cost savings tends to win out too often over reliability because many / most people buy on price.

Let us know how you make out with the HP.

 

[timby]

Well here are the results of the replacement of the existing Netgear 1Gig switch with an HP 1Gig.

I'm now able to use 1Gig on the network. We played several rounds of COD4 while downloading and testing bandwidth on the other PC. Also, had the game console download some stuff. Seems no problems.

I didn't get around to enabling Jumbo Frames again so we'll see about that tonight.

So Far so good ....

Keep you fingers crossed ....