What is Wrong With Quantenna?

[Quantum`]

More than a year since QSR1000 was released, and the only devices that actually have it is 3 routers? What about client devicen? What about miniPCIe? What have they been doing all this time?

I know that MU:MIMO is hard so that no one else has been able to release a product yet, but Quantenna has it down. No client devices? REALLY?

I'm about convinced that they're just screwing around.

There is no miniPCIe with BCM4366 yet, much less the BCM43465 or BCM43525. Nor is there a QCA9980/2/4 miniPCIe, and it doesn't even support beam-forming. So what's a brother to do? Give up on MU:MIMO for the build I need to do now?

PS - I can only use miniPCIe or M.2 because I grow my own router. (security, control)

 

[mediatrek]

To my knowledge Qualcomm-Atheros has been working on MU-MIMO development for the longest period of time compared to the others.

QCA9980 does support beamforming. It is the older QCA 9880 that does not. There also is a miniPCIe card with the QCA9980 chip on it in the WLE1200V5-22.

 

[thiggins]

Linksys and Amped Wireless both are shipping AC2600 class 4x4 routers based on QCA chipsets that have working MU-MIMO. [EA8500 review.] There should be more coming out in the next few months.

MU-MIMO products using Broadcom chipsets will probably be late this year or early next.

To date, Quantenna has not released code that enables MU-MIMO.

You should not expect to see many MU-MIMO cards or USB adapters. MU-MIMO is primarily targeted at mobile devices (smartphones, tablets), so will be mainly embedded.

 

[mediatrek]

The QCA-based Netgear R7500v2 with MU-MIMO will be hitting store shelves soon. From what I have heard, we should start to see it here in the states by the end of August.

(Image from koolshare.cn forum.)

 

[Quantum`]

thiggins, It's all very nice to have routers with MU:MIMO, but there are no client cards; ie miniPCIe. I know of 3 in addition to those you cite, but I'm not bothering to look them up as it doesn't matter. What's the use of routers without client cards? How can there not be client cards?

And from my research, Quantenna is the only chipset which does both beamforming and MU:MIMO. Can you demonstrate otherwise? Further, I find that Broadcom has dominated the high-end of 802.11ac thusfar, and so don't have much faith in QCA, at least for Linux.

mediatrek, I must have miniPCIe, given the constraints of my setup. Canned embedded routers are of no use, given that I must build my own. I need total control of the software for firewalling, routing, and IDS. I won't even mention that I need dual-band, AP mode, and monitor mode.

I guess I'm just disappointed that nothing's come out for miniPCIe for over a year, even as the chipsets have been available. After extensive research, there are no acceptable solutions.

 

[remixedcat]

Isn't QCA tighter with code so there's less firmware options for stuff like OpenWRT/DDWRT/Tomato, etc??

 

[thiggins]

And from my research, Quantenna is the only chipset which does both beamforming and MU:MIMO. Can you demonstrate otherwise? Further, I find that Broadcom has dominated the high-end of 802.11ac thus far, and so don't have much faith in QCA, at least for Linux.

Could you please cite your research references?

Although transmit beamforming is an optional part of 802.11ac, all 802.11ac devices I've seen support it. And since MU-MIMO relies on a special form of beamforming, it would have to be supported.

First-gen 4x4 QCA-based products like Linksys' E8350 that used the QCA9880 for 2.4 GHz did not support transmit beamforming on 2.4 GHz only.

QCA's 4x4 MU-MIMO QCA9980 supports transmit beamforming and is used on both bands in Linksys' EA8500.

Broadcom has dominated 802.11ac until now. On 4x4 MU-MIMO, they are behind QCA. That's one reason they introduced the Xtreme dual 5 GHz radio architecture to buy time.

 

[Quantum`]

I've extensively searched on these issues and find only bits and pieces from many sources, so there isn't one reference. Most of my research though branches off from
https://wikidevi.com/wiki/List_of_802.11ac_Hardware#Chipsets
http://www.fiercewireless.com/tech/
http://www.anandtech.com/tag/wifi
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/tools/charts/wireless/view
https://www.broadcom.com/products/Wireless-LAN/802.11-Wireless-LAN-Solutions/BCM4366
http://www.quantenna.com/qsr-1000.html

For example look at this wonderful story from more than a year ago:
http://www.fiercewireless.com/tech/...i-capacity-80211ac-multi-user-mimo/2014-04-02
... but still absolutely no client devices. No client devices from anyone. And the few routers with this chipset do not actually support AC-standard beamforming (check the reviews); chipset may be capable, but the actual router still doesn't support it.

Routers with 5GHz Quantenna are the only ones that currently do. Sure, BCM43602 has XStream, but XStream gives no additional range, while MU:MIMO does. And, with all AC3200 routers to date, they will consistenly produce higher total wireless throughput only if you disable Smart Connect and manually distribute devices among radios.

But I don't care about routers because I'm not looking for one. No client devices -- no miniPCIe or M.2 cards. Fine, I understand that MU:MIMO is hard so QCA and BCM can't get it right. But Quantenna has a working system, so where are the client cards? What have they been doing for the past year and a half, with no client cards? Screwing around with the VC money? Trying to get 10Gb to work? Whatever it is, it's starting to look fishy to me.

 

[thiggins]

Thanks for providing your references.

There are MU-MIMO enabled client devices slowly rolling out with QCA devices inside. I listed them in the Linksys review. But again, your point is valid that there are not many available, and no cards or dongles at all that consumers can buy. That is going to remain the case for at least the short term.

I think you are misinformed about standard AC beamforming support. It is supported in 5 GHz in all routers I've seen.

MU-MIMO does not increase range. In fact, it needs strong signals to provide significant total bandwidth utilization improvement.

Finally, Quantenna may have MU-MIMO working. But they have not released the code to any of the manufacturers that produced first-generation 4x4 AC2350/AC2400 class routers. Those products remain MU-MIMO ready.

 

[sfx2000]

Previous poster raised a good point - where are the client chipsets?

With Quantenna - the clients basically don't exist, except at a bridge level, which few people buy - either they buy AP's or Clients - and not having a client chipset is a deadly sin...

They did some good stuff - marred perhaps by some odd and buggy SOHO AP/Router implementations by OEM's (ask the ASUS sub-forums how they really feel as an example with regards to the 87U product).

IMHO - the next big PR I expect, and again, this is only an opinion - is either a buyout by one of the big players, or a wrap-up/wind-down of the business...

I'm sure these folks are working hard - but so is everyone else - and this is a tough business to be in at the chipset level.

 

[remixedcat]

Thing is the dual 5Ghz radio works with all clients... no "special mu-mimo chips" needed.

 

[stevech]

I just want to know if I should sell my QCOM stock with all the dire prognosis for their business.
I have worked with them, and HQ is 3 miles from me.
They have a reputation here of being an army of litigation lawyers and a squad of engineers.

 

[remixedcat]

Ugh really? How are they compared to BCM or QNT?

 

[Quantum`]

Thing is the dual 5Ghz radio works with all clients... no "special mu-mimo chips" needed.

Yes, but in MU:MIMO mode both sides need to be MU:MIMO -- AP for beamforming, and client to provide channel and telemetry info.

stevech, too late, they've just agreed to a $1b fine to China. EU is probably next. All this is already factored in.

 

[remixedcat]

What? QCA got fined??? ugh...

 

[Quantum`]

Actually, there is good reason for it.

Would that M$ have been doled the same... but they are too big to be punished.

 

[sfx2000]

I just want to know if I should sell my QCOM stock with all the dire prognosis for their business.
I have worked with them, and HQ is 3 miles from me.
They have a reputation here of being an army of litigation lawyers and a squad of engineers.

Likely want to hold on to it - speculation is that QCT will be spun-off as another entity, which many in the business are totally afraid of - having to deal with both QTL and QCT is bad enough, having 2xQCOM is something that keeps the lawyers, and business folks awake at night...

 

[sfx2000]

Thing is the dual 5Ghz radio works with all clients... no "special mu-mimo chips" needed.

thing is - Broadcom X-Stream is a Lisa Simpson kind of product - an answer to a question that nobody really asked...

 

[remixedcat]

How?

 

[sfx2000]

How?

It really doesn't offer much for the additional increase in BOM costs - which are either

a) passed on to the customer
b) decrease margin for the vendor

X-Stream at best can offer AC1300 class performance in the 5GHz band, because the two chips cannot be bonded at the AP... so there is little benefit. Even using two X-Stream based AP's as a bridge, it is impossible to bond the channels and coordinate them.

There's another issue, and that can be dealt with on a design perspective - when you have two independent transmitters in close proximity within the same frequency band, they will interfere with each other in the near field - this isn't opinion, this is physics - and again, it begs the questions as to why even do this?

In my opinion though, the only benefit of X-Stream is to Broadcom shareholders, as it increases the number of chips sold...