Which WiFi supplement: aircon Ethernet, MoCa, AV2, or a combo?

[jalyst]

That's the question I'm wrangling with....
I don't know if I'll hit a limit to what my WRT610N_v1 can do (n.b. still have ancient 802.11b/g client adapters).
As I haven't yet completed my HTPC/PVR build, & it's 1-2 front-ends around the house.

I don't even know yet what sort of simultaneous network traffic I'm up against.
And whether I'll want more than one HD stream, & the nature of it's/their compression.

I guess I just want to know (best case scenario), with:
1) 1-2 excellent 802.11agn adapters w/great antennas & rx sensitivity
2) Modded 610Nv1 w/improved antennae
3) DD-WRT AP related tweaks...
What's the best throughput (avg. distance for avg. house) I can hope to attain?

Will it be too limiting?
Perhaps one of the new dual-band/dual-radio kings* will offer a significant enough improvement.
Such that only 1->3 (for now ) is necessary, & I won't have to bother with the supplements below?

**UPDATE**
I'm no longer bothering with these Qns... ^
I will be doing one or combo of the wired options below, more findings soon.

Or perhaps IYO it'll be imperative to do one or a combination of the following:

1. Ethernet: using aircon temp sensor backbone
I know when this was 1st installed (as house was being built) that at least cat 5e was used, it may have even been 6!
What I don't know is what it's topology is like, & whether it goes back to a central switch.
And whether I'll be able to fully utilise it without harming the aircon installation.
We rarely use the aircon nowadays, as it consumes too much power, massive split-level (think the term is) system.

2. MoCA: using cable tv & internet (foxtel/bigpond) coax. infrastructure
We have coax cabling to 3 points in the house; two with their own STB that I "think" come from the same feed into the house.
The 3rd I think is a separate main feed into the house, that was once used for cable broadband.

2. Powerline networking: using power point infrastructure
Whichever flavour is best nowadays; HomePlug AV2!?
http://www.netgear.com/products/home/powerline-and-coax/high-performance/XAVB5001.aspx
http://www.netgear.com/home/products/powerline-and-coax/high-performance/XAVB5004.aspx

3. 802.11A/N media only AP: ALA the NetGear WNHDB3004 3DHD
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wire...d-wireless-home-theater-networking-kit-review

4. DIY Ethernet: it's what it sounds like!
This is not really an option....
We can't have cable lying around, & I'm simply not skilled enough to run cables through all the walls & install points etc.
At least not without some major cock-ups along-the-way, & it's not my house

I want to be sure that it's necessary for one or more of these options to be employed.
As extra time/complexity/$ comes with them, so why bother unless it's imperative!?

Any thoughts/advice/tips/experiences you can share are very much appreciated! Thank-you.

*E4200 or the soon arriving WNDR3800

 

[thiggins]

C'mon jalyst. You know the answer. For reliable HD streaming, Ethernet will provide the highest and most stable bandwidth, MoCA second, HomePlug AV third, then wireless.

 

[Osamede]

Simply put: "get your drill out"!

 

[jalyst]

C'mon jalyst. You know the answer. For reliable HD streaming, Ethernet will provide the highest and most stable bandwidth, MoCA second, HomePlug AV third, then wireless.

I know that, but that doesn't mean I know which option to go for
Everyone's circumstance is different, as explained Ethernet really isn't an option, unless I can leverage the aircon network.
Not sure how to determine if it's suitable or can be re-purposed...

 

[wrems]

I'd go for the moca adapters in your situation. Especially, since you said this isn't your house. This way you can take them with you when you leave. Routing cables isn't hard but if it's not your house then there's not as much reason to do that...

What kind of PVR build are you putting together?

 

[jalyst]

I'd go for the moca adapters in your situation. Especially, since you said this isn't your house. This way you can take them with you when you leave. Routing cables isn't hard but if it's not your house then there's not as much reason to do that...

What kind of PVR build are you putting together?

Thanks for the input wrems, tis appreciated.
What of option 1), any idea how I'd go about approaching that?

And why do you rule out 2) & 3) entirely in favour of MoCa?

As for my HTPC/PVR, it's an epic build rest assured, I'll have dedicated thread soon.
I'll make sure I link to it from here when it begins.

Thanks again.

 

[wrems]

I personally wouldn't mess with 1. If you're disconnecting the thermostat all together then I might give it a shot. Number 2 is still using wireless, while it should work you're still left with wireless woes. You'll never get the same performance out of a non-wired setup. Even streaming SD over the air can sometimes be a real hassle, not too mention the extra delays in button presses on a remote provided you're setting up some central server and having client access for your pvr build. I use SageTV myself. While there are people driving their HD extenders wirelessly I just personally wouldn't do it, unless I really, really had to and I had no other choice. I have great things about moca too.

 

[jalyst]

I personally wouldn't mess with 1. If you're disconnecting the thermostat all together then I might give it a shot.

I'd love to investigate this further, but I'm just not sure where to begin.
I'm sure the thermostat could be disabled/decoupled, the aircon is not used any more.

Number 2 is still using wireless, while it should work you're still left with wireless woes. You'll never get the same performance out of a non-wired setup. Even streaming SD over the air can sometimes be a real hassle,

You make a good point there, wireless is still wireless...
No matter how awesome that "video geared" WiFi set-up is, it's never going to compare to Ethernet, MoCa, or even Homeplug AV2.
Plus I suspect it'll be more expensive for what amts to inferior, & less consistent, performance.
I'll put it down the very bottom of my list, just above DIY Ethernet

not too mention the extra delays in button presses on a remote provided you're setting up some central server and having client access for your pvr build.

I will be using something like URC's MX-5000, initially though, just an IR-only Harmony One.

I have great things about moca too.

Better than Homeplug AV2 in my scenario though, how/why so?

 

[jalyst]

Sorry for not replying. I did see your post but got wrapped up in other things and forgot about you.
Without having a clearer understanding of your home construction, cabling, etc. its difficult to make recommendations.

No worries mate, I will endeavour to make things clearer.

As a general rule I tell anyone who has either attic or crawl space access to run Cat5e/6 cabling. There's nothing more reliable than a cabled network.
If that's not an option look for other solutions starting with MOCA. Not everyone's coax setup and TV provider will work properly with MOCA, so you'll want to read up on that before taking the plunge.

Alas I don't have any attic/crawl-space access & running CAT5e/6 is just not an option
Okay so you feel MoCa is the next best cabling after Cat5e/6, good to know!
I'll do more research on whether my coax set-up & provider is suitable if it comes to that.

With Wifi some people have better luck than others. You can certainly try but don't fight with it proves to be unreliable. Just move on to a cabled solution. Maybe take a look at the Trendnet 3 stream setup that Tim wrote about yesterday.

Nah I don't think I'll upgrade to any of the latest & greatest Router/AP's.
If my current set-up isn't suitable, then I'll look at only the wired solutions for now.
At the end of the year I'll prolly upgrade my router/AP and a few clients.
So that Trendnet is one to keep in mind for then...

As far as your thermostat wiring is concerned, are you sure its Cat5? Cat5 is 24Ga strands which are too thin to handle voltage required between thermostat and air handler.

When the house was 1st being built, a separate run of cat6 was going to be used for a dedicated LAN.
That idea was ditched at the last minute, but as I recall for some reason they used that cabling for the aircon sensors.
I'm quite sure all the runs (before wall went in) to the sensor units were cat5e or 6, they're definitely not cross-over.
Which I guess means there must be a switch, that or all the cables just run back to the main aircon unit.

On the sensor ends (they can be pulled-off their wall mounts)...
It looks like these 8P8C cables (i.e. computer rj45 or true Ethernet cabling) just plug into a 8P8C jack, which is soldered directly to a PCB.
Looks like a normal 8P8C plug & jack, all the conducting channels are there, & on the jack they all feed into the PCB.
It doesn't matter if running Ethernet & TCP/IP over this infrastructure impedes the function of the aircon's sensors.
The idea would be to decouple the sensor network entirely from the main aircon unit, as the aircon's not used anymore, it's too expensive.

This wired route is preferred over MoCa if I determine it's possible, but neither it or MoCa are an immediate concern.
Not until I do some thorough testing with my WiFi set-up, after my HTPC/PVR & front-end's are complete.
If that testing reveals limitations that are too significant, then the focus will shift...

One more thing about Wifi, you'll likely find the biggest problem being stability of equipment when streaming HD. I've had some people tell me they can stream just fine with the WNDR3700 but after some time it requires a reboot to work reliably. I have even heard of people connecting their WNDR3700 to a lamp timer that power cycles it for them in the middle of each night to try to keep it running reliably.

I'll keep a scheduled power-cycle in mind for my WRT610N v1 thanks!
I'm about to install the very latest/stable DD-WRT (which has that ability).
Hopefully I can milk a tiny bit more performance from it + stability!?

I recently ordered a MP2W-6300H.
This is billed as a mPCIe to USB adapter & so would've been ideal to use with Intel's Ultimate-N 6300.*
The 6300 is widely considered to be the best performing WiFi client around.
Alas it turns out this adapter can only turn "USB-based" mPCIe cards into USB clients.
I still don't get that TBH but that's what they claim, I think things might've been lost in translation.
Apparently there's a revision due in Q3 that will enable me to plug a 6300 into it, & in turn plug everything into a USB port.

So I'm back to the drawing board for a USB 802.11abgn client.
Any recommendations for the next best performer would be greatly appreciated?
PCIe client is not an option for my HTPC/PVR, can't spare any slots.
I'll have to do something about my 802.11g printer too, might connect it directly to one of my Macs via Ethernet?

Thanks again for taking the time to respond, it really is appreciated!
I hope all this make things a bit clearer for you?

Cheers.

*I know there can be issues using USB WiFi clients, but I'll be careful not to saturate the USB bus.

 

[claykin]

At the end of the year I'll prolly upgrade my router/AP and a few clients.
So that Trendnet is one to keep in mind for then...

By the end of the year the wireless landscape can change. Check back here before making a purchase if waiting 10 months.

When the house was 1st being built, a separate run of cat6 was going to be used for a dedicated LAN.
That idea was ditched at the last minute, but as I recall for some reason they used that cabling for the aircon sensors.
I'm quite sure all the runs (before wall went in) to the sensor units were cat5e or 6, they're definitely not cross-over.
Which I guess means there must be a switch, that or all the cables just run back to the main aircon unit.....

Cannot comment on this as I don't know what you have connected to the cabling, where the cabling terminates, whether the cable has been cut/mended along the way, and if its really Cat5/5e cabling. Can you pull out enough cable to see if its marked on the jacket? Next, you'll need to determine where this cable home runs, if it home runs at all. Consider the possibility that the air conditioning installers ran the supposed Cat5 cabling in a series loop around the house. If this is the case no Cat5 for you!

I recently ordered a MP2W-6300H.
This is billed as a mPCIe to USB adapter & so would've been ideal to use with Intel's Ultimate-N 6300.*
The 6300 is widely considered to be the best performing WiFi client around.
Alas it turns out this adapter can only turn "USB-based" mPCIe cards into USB clients.
I still don't get that TBH but that's what they claim, I think things might've been lost in translation.
Apparently there's a revision due in Q3 that will enable me to plug a 6300 into it, & in turn plug everything into a USB port.

So I'm back to the drawing board for a USB 802.11abgn client.
Any recommendations for the next best performer would be greatly appreciated?
PCIe client is not an option for my HTPC/PVR, can't spare any slots.
I'll have to do something about my 802.11g printer too, might connect it directly to one of my Macs via Ethernet?

Can you connect via ethernet and use a wireless bridge?

 

[jalyst]

By the end of the year the wireless landscape can change. Check back here before making a purchase if waiting 10 months

Oh yeah that's a given, will address remainder in the morn, 2am here. Thanks/night!

 

[jalyst]

Hi mate thanks for the feed-back & sorry for the delayed response!

I don't know what you have connected to the cabling, where the cabling terminates, whether the cable has been cut/mended along the way, and if its really Cat5/5e cabling. Can you pull out enough cable to see if its marked on the jacket?

As explained in prior post, it's definitely proper Ethernet cabling, just not 100% sure if it's Cat5, 5e, or 6.
I've already tried pulling the cabling out at 2 points where it terminates, but I haven't had enough slack to get it out far enough.
I'll try a few other sensors in the morn though, to see if I can see anything on the jacket!

Next, you'll need to determine where this cable home runs, if it home runs at all. Consider the possibility that the air conditioning installers ran the supposed Cat5 cabling in a series loop around the house. If this is the case no Cat5 for you!

They've got to run back to some central location, just not sure where yet!?!

Can you connect via ethernet and use a wireless bridge?

You mean a WiFi client adapter that interfaces with my PC via Ethernet?
What's wrong with the USB route, as mentioned I'll be careful not to go crazy on the USB bus.

Off the top of my head, the only thing being used regularly will be:
1x Logitech Dinovo Edge (uses proprietary wireless protocol)
1x USB DAB+ tuner device.
Wouldn't be surprised if I've missed one or two things... so tired

Last I checked Ethernet-based WiFi clients (bridges) were much more limited in-terms of choice, & way pricier.

*EDIT*
Noticed this review...
Perhaps this can be my solution to no USB adapter (yet) for a 6300?
Hopefully this'll work great in a two stream set-up with my WRT610n v1?!
When I upgrade to a 3-stream router/ap in approx. 7-month...
Surely it'll work 100% in 3-stream config. too?!

I'll have to do something about my 802.11g printer too, might connect it directly to one of my Macs via Ethernet?

Makes sense to do this right? Otherwise the 2.4Ghz 802.11n network will be affected.

Cheers/night.

 

[jalyst]

N.B.
No super urgency for a response to all this as I need to finish my build/s 1st & then gauge my WiFi's limitations.
All that's going to take quite some time yet....

Although it'd be nice to rule the aircon network in or out with absolute certainty before then.

 

[stevech]

Because of interference in WiFi (RF), I went to MoCA. No interference on my wired coax medium.

With IP over power wiring, you've got lots of interference, coming and going according to motors, light dimmers, etc. And in the US, we have the signal phase bridging issue.

 

[jalyst]

Because of interference in WiFi (RF), I went to MoCA. No interference on my wired coax medium.

With IP over power wiring, you've got lots of interference, coming and going according to motors, light dimmers, etc. And in the US, we have the signal phase bridging issue.

Good point RE power-line, thanks for highlighting.
Any ideas on how best to determine whether my aircon sensor network is suitable?
Yet to check jackets for cat5/6 labelling....

*update*
Latest/best option if going the HomePlug route...
According to ya'll MoCa seems to be the option to consider 1st though.
If I've confirmed I can't use my aircon infrastructure, & my WiFi set-up's too limited.

 

[claykin]

You mean a WiFi client adapter that interfaces with my PC via Ethernet?
What's wrong with the USB route, as mentioned I'll be careful not to go crazy on the USB bus.

Off the top of my head, the only thing being used regularly will be:
1x Logitech Dinovo Edge (uses proprietary wireless protocol)
1x USB DAB+ tuner device.
Wouldn't be surprised if I've missed one or two things... so tired

Last I checked Ethernet-based WiFi clients (bridges) were much more limited in-terms of choice, & way pricier.

*EDIT*
Noticed this review...
Perhaps this can be my solution to no USB adapter (yet) for a 6300?
Hopefully this'll work great in a two stream set-up with my WRT610n v1?!
When I upgrade to a 3-stream router/ap in approx. 7-month...
Surely it'll work 100% in 3-stream config. too?!



Makes sense to do this right? Otherwise the 2.4Ghz 802.11n network will be affected.

Cheers/night.

IMO, if you go the route of using a wifi bridge, purchase two of the same to create the bridge. Connect one bridge to your WAN router (which I believe is the WRT610 in your case) and the second bridge to the device on the remote end.

By using the same bridge device on both ends insures the highest chance of reliability.

This Trendnet seems like a reasonable solution. Tom seems to have had good results with the test.

 

[stevech]

Unfortunately that won't be an option...
I'll have to make do with one client/bridge attached to my HTPC/PVR, that connects directly to my AP (wrt610n).
If it proves to be unreliable & performance is lackluster, then I'll move onto the wired options previously discussed.

I used a Buffalo WiFi bridge for my TV over IP (SageTV) for a year, but moved to MoCA to get away from infrequent WiFi reboot-the-bridge or reboot-the-router hangups. Seemed like these ALWAYS happen when I'm away on a business trip and the WAF suffers. It's a real joy to be instructing, by phone, the spouse on how to get behind the TV, unplug this, the go in the other room and re-plug the WiFi router, and yadda yadda. Doesn't make for an assured "I miss you, come home soon" salutation to the call.

Since going to MoCA, zero, nada problems. It's layer 2, dumb, like copper.
Been on this for a year or so.

 

[thegreattriscuit]

Since you're still not sure about the aircon setup, I'd say attack it and either establish it as viable, or get it out of the way.

My main concern is that you say "Ethernet", but I'm not sure whether you should be 100% confident that it's Ethernet. An 8P8C connector on CAT 5e doesn't necessarily imply Ethernet.

First thing you want to do is use a multimeter and just make sure none of the pins are carrying anything crazy like 24V AC or something that will destroy your computer... I'm at work and can't check right now, but I'd assume you'd be looking for something like 5 or 10 V DC at the most. I'm also not sure how Ethernet detects another device at the end, so you actually might not see ANY dc or ac voltage on the pins, and that's okay... you just want to make sure there's not something crazy on them that will blow up your computer.

Once you've cleared it that far, use a NIC that you don't mind loosing (I'd recommend a small, USB network adapter), and (without it being plugged into your computer) plug it into the cable... watch for smoke.

If there's no smoke, you can try and plug it into a computer... HOPEFULLY if anything crazy happens, the USB adapter will take the brunt of the abuse and spare your computer, but don't blame me if your laptop explodes....

if you manage to make it that far without any obvious signs of destroying your aircon, or your computer, or setting your house on fire, an easy way to see if it's actual-factual-jan-u-wine Ethernet is look at your network adapter and see if it says it's connected... Also look to see if it's negotiated to 10 or 100, full or half duplex, etc... Obviously 100/full is what you want, but if it negotiates at ALL, then you know you've got real ethernet.

And the cool thing about ethernet, is it's a standard. You can't ALWAYS trust that people who comply with part of a standard will comply with all of it, but chances are they didn't roll their own Ethernet adaptors... They probably used a generic ethernet adaptor IC from somewhere, and if you've made it this far there's really no reason that their devices would magically fail just by the presence of other devices on the network. So stick a laptop on one cable, another computer on another cable, give them static IP addresses in the same subnet, and see if you can ping or otherwise communicate accross.

If that works, then you've got a workable solution.

Also, if your NIC negotiates to 10/half, you're not going to want to use it as-is... but if there's a switch somewhere, go find that sucker, rip it out, and replace it w/ a gigabit one while your at it.

 

[jalyst]

IMO, if you go the route of using a wifi bridge, purchase two of the same to create the bridge<SNIP>

Unfortunately that won't be an option...
I'll have to make do with one client/bridge attached to my HTPC/PVR, that connects directly to my AP (wrt610n).
I'll install wired infrastructure soon too, so my HTPC/PVR will prolly move to it for better performance/reliability.

It doesn't need to have the reliability/performance required for multiple HD streams...
I've realised I don't have a need for that in the immediate future, as my HTPC will be next to my AV system in my TV room!
So essentially all I need is a stable/reliable connection to the net for Linux/Win package updates etc, much less demanding.

LT there may come some demand from rooms upstairs...
But if that happens we can get a 2nd TEW-687GA like you were suggesting, or invest in this or similar.
That's assuming I don't already have: aircon Eth, MoCa, AV2, or some combo in place, which'll negate the need for that!

Main thing is it's the best performing 802.11 client adapter ATM right? (aside from Intel 6300)
So hopefully I'll get even more out of it when I upgrade my AP in Q4!?
I'll buy at least 1x more 802.11n client adapter then, & before then I'll have a dedicated router/fw (610n will be AP).

<SNIP>Since going to MoCA, zero, nada problems. It's layer 2, dumb, like copper, been on it for a year or so.

Oh yeah, it's a given that I'm going to wired as a compliment, I've already said that.
It'll be aircon Eth or aircon Eth + MoCa, or if aircon Eth is proven as not doable, then MoCa + AV2.

Focus of the current set of posts is to determine the best WiFi client/bridge option.
I still want top-notch Wifi infrastructure for the house, as there'll still be times when it's handy.

The Intel 6300's arguably the best client, but it's not an option as it's mPCIe.
As mentioned in a prior post there's an external solution coming, but it's some time away.
Is there such a thing as PCIe slot multipliers?*

e.g.
You'd plug it into a PCIe slot & coming off it are: 1x PCIe slot & 1x mPCIe slot.
Ideally the PCIe slot would sit directly atop the PCIe slot it's plugged into.
The mPCIe could be attached via some long flexible cabling, so that it doesn't obstruct the PCIe slot etc.

But I imagine that's wishful thinking, I don't think there's any standard for PCIe "cabling" is there?
Of course, "thunderbolt" may change that...

Is the TEW-687GA the best client adapter/bridge everyone has seen?
Is there not any that are 3-stream and dual-band!?
I know I can't exploit either yet because of my AP, but it's nice to be future-proof.

*Don't want mPCIe to PCIe convertor, as that takes-up an entire PCIe slot just for the WiFi client.

<SNIP>

I've been speaking to someone at length off-thread on how to approach ruling aircon Eth in/out with certainty.
I will be putting that all into practice soon, sorry I should've mentioned that.
I'm mainly just wanting peoples thoughts on my prior post at this stage.
But thanks very much for the lengthy response on how to attack aircon Eth, definitely appreciated!
If you can add anything further to my prior post, it would be appreciated.
But I understand if you don't have time, as you've already invested a lot in your last post!

Thanks again/night.

 

[jalyst]

Just my frackin luck....
Shortly after I buy the TEW-687GA, trendet goes & releases the TEW-684UB!
I haven't taken it from it's packing yet, maybe they'll let me do an exchange & pay the difference?
Update RE my wired infrastructure is still coming, just a few others to knock over 1st!