Wired Mesh or Small Business for new house + QoS

[oscarmvl]

Hi everyone!

I've been lurking for several months but I still have a few concerns regarding the network setup for my new house, I would appreciate a lot if I could get some advice.

Some house details:
- New house, 2300 sq ft split into 2 floors.
- Concrete walls and floors
- 200/15 Mbps down/up connection available, that's why QoS that helps with bufferbloat is so important.
- Wired with Cat6 for all the house, including eventual APs in the ceiling.

What I care about:
- Seamless roaming of devices, I've had bad experiences with routers in AP mode in the past and I rather solve this from the beginning.
- Being able to do online gaming while someone else is streaming Netflix or downloading a file (high ping can ruin your gaming session). A modern kind of QoS like Cake or SQM would be ideal.
- Set it and forget it, I don't mind doing a thorough setup, but I don't want to be fiddling with it every week.

And below are all the options I have considered and their downsides

Consumer Mesh:
- Asus ZenWiFi XT8: seems to lack stability and many complaints online.
- Asus AX86U (dual routers in AiMesh): I've read several complaints of roaming not working properly in AiMesh v2, good roaming is crucial.
- Amplifi Alien: no QoS for wired devices, this is a dealbreaker.
- Deco X90: a potential candidate, not sure about its QoS capabilities. I did a Deco x60 setup in my brother's house and they all seem happy with it.
- Eero Pro 6: SQM is still "in progress" according to a post from the CEO in reddit 2 months ago.
- Netgear Orbi RBK852: many complaints online, QoS seems lackluster, I had QoS issues with a Nighthawk R7000 a few years ago.

Small business options:
- Unifi UDM+APs: I've ready many complaints about Unifi equipment, but I like that they have SQM for the WAN port.
- TP Link Omada: not sure about the QoS capabilities of the router, I haven't seen SQM or similar mentioned in the manuals.
- Aruba Instant On: same as Omada, QoS seems non-existent in the manuals.
- Cisco (Meraki & CBW): I don't have the knowledge to identify which products would fit my scenario, also I'm not sure about QoS modern features like SQM.

This is a wall of text, but I wanted to provide enough context. Again, I truly appreciate any advice you might have

 

[Trip]

Hi @oscarmvl - Welcome. Everything considered, I'd skip the consumer stuff and go SMB/community-grade discrete components across the board. You'll have a higher-performing, more configurable network that will run more like an appliance and less like a toy.

For this use-case, I'd run a mixed-vendor stack comprised of an x86 box with Intel NICs (ie. PC-class hardware) for a router/firewall -- either a do-it-yourself Qotom embedded box running OpenWRT, or a Firewalla Gold for something turn-key -- plus switching and wifi from Ubiquiti, TP-Link, Aruba or Cisco. I'm partial to the embedded-controller products over the discrete ones, so either Aruba Instant On or Cisco CBS/CBW over UniFi or Omada, just because their control planes are less failure-prone, but any of those four should work well enough.

Just make sure to enable SQM on OpenWRT or Firewalla, properly spec your AP's and switches, and you should be good to go.

So that's how I'd approach this. Any questions, feel free.

 

[oscarmvl]

Hi @oscarmvl - Welcome. Everything considered, I'd skip the consumer stuff and go SMB/community-grade discrete components across the board. You'll have a higher-performing, more configurable network that will run more like an appliance and less like a toy.

For this use-case, I'd run a mixed-vendor stack comprised of an x86 box with Intel NICs (ie. PC-class hardware) for a router/firewall -- either a do-it-yourself Qotom embedded box running OpenWRT, or a Firewalla Gold for something turn-key -- plus switching and wifi from Ubiquiti, TP-Link, Aruba or Cisco. I'm partial to the embedded-controller products over the discrete ones, so either Aruba Instant On or Cisco CBS/CBW over UniFi or Omada, just because their control planes are less failure-prone, but any of those four should work well enough.

Just make sure to enable SQM on OpenWRT or Firewalla, properly spec your AP's and switches, and you should be good to go.

So that's how I'd approach this. Any questions, feel free.

Thanks @Trip for the detailed response. I looked at the Firewalla Gold and it seems very nice, it has the power and features of the router I'm looking for so it's looking like a winner.

I have an additional question, assuming that I purchase the Firewalla, could several APs be set in a way that supports roaming between them? I like this feature of consumer mesh systems where you can set a single network name for all APs for both 2.4 and 5GHz, so you just connect to a single network and your device (phone or laptop) can switch seamlessly between different APs.

Edit: I’m looking at the Aurba Instant On AP22 and PoE switches, they seem like they could do the trick together with the Firewalla Gold.

 

[Tech9]

I like this feature of consumer mesh systems where you can set a single network name for all APs for both 2.4 and 5GHz, so you just connect to a single network and your device (phone or laptop) can switch seamlessly between different APs.

You read too much product (false) advertisements. SmartConnect (single 2.4GHz + 5GHz SSID) is something power users avoid. Most home "mesh" systems are simple wireless repeaters - Mesh in the name sells the product. You are going to have much better roaming with multiple low-powered APs around the house. I had a chance to test Asus AiMesh. Seamless is the credit card transaction only.

could several APs be set in a way that supports roaming between them?

Yes.

 

[oscarmvl]

You read too much product (false) advertisements. SmartConnect (single 2.4GHz + 5GHz SSID) is something power users avoid. Most home "mesh" systems are simple wireless repeaters - Mesh in the name sells the product. You are going to have much better roaming with multiple low-powered APs around the house. I had a chance to test Asus AiMesh. Seamless is the credit card transaction only.



Yes.

Understood, so let’s say I put multiple low powered APs around the house, would I still be able to setup a single SSID for 2.4GHz + 5GHz?

I’m guessing all APs would share the same SSID for both bands and the APs would handle the handoff between APs and between bands when using a solution like the Aruba Instant On APs and switches.

 

[Tech9]

would I still be able to setup a single SSID for 2.4GHz + 5GHz?

Yes - Omada, UniFi, Cisco, Ruckus all have band steering settings in network controllers, I believe some even in AP UI for stand alone. Don't know about Aruba. I use separate SSIDs for both bands for more control; band steering during voice/video calls on mobile devices is not a good thing. I only tested Omada setup with EAP245V3 APs and it's very good for the price. I also had one UniFi setup with UAP-AC-LITE APs, but it was replaces with Cisco. The main reason was endless updates and I already have Cisco running in other places - identical systems make support easier. At home my choice is Ruckus ZoneFlex R610 APs. Router/firewall - I use Netgate SG-5100 running pfSense. @Trip has more experience than me and he can point you to current exact models equipment according to your requirements.

 

[oscarmvl]

@Tech9 my sincere thanks for all this information, I have a much clearer path on how to move forward with this network setup.

And it seems that the roaming between different APs should also be covered by this setup (Firewalla + APs and Switch of the same brand), am I missing something else? Or this should be enough for proper roaming?

 

[Trip]

@oscarmvl - For normal endpoint use, provided you have proper-quality APs, you can absolutely use a single SSID broadcasting in both bands. The notion of having to do otherwise usually stems from dealing with older gear and/or APs that cannot properly fingerprint and/or band-associate their clients well enough to begin with (a lot of consumer gear, for example). These days, band isolation is really only be needed for specific sub-populations (ex: IoT gear, certain content streaming, mesh backhaul); it shouldn't really be needed just to make basic access or roaming work like it should.

Regarding same-brand APs and switches to attain seamless roaming, the former is not required. Switches could be of any brand. Roaming is handled purely by the APs and wifi controller. The primary benefit of same-brand and same-ecosystem APs and switches is ease-of-management. By integrating switches into the wifi controller, that's one less physical network layer to have to configure separately (and risk misconfiguring while doing so).

TL;DR - I run a completely non-integrated stack at home (Ubiquiti EdgeMAX routing, HPE switching and Ruckus Unleashed wifi) and the whole stack runs perfectly. That being said, whenever I want to modify something that spans all three components, I have to manage each of the three separately. Not a big deal for me, but for a more novice admin, he/she might welcome fewer balls to juggle and platforms to learn. All comes down to preference and skill level, really.

Hope that helps again.

 

[shark2]

give these routers a chance:

In OpenWrt they recommend these wifi 6 routers: belkin rt3200 and linksys E8450 both routers use the same hardware.

They say they are one of the best wifi routers that have support and use kernel version 5.10.

If you use sqm cake it can be up to 500mbs with one core, but if you install and use Irqbalance to use both cores, you can with more than 500mbs using sqm cake.

belkin rt3200 price 100 dollars
Search results - OpenWrt Forum: https://forum.openwrt.org/search?q=rt3200 order:latest

Techdata: Belkin RT3200

Techdata: Belkin RT3200 The development branch can contain experimental code that is under active development and should not be used for production environments. Snapshot images may support additional hardware; however, it is experimental, considered unstable, and sometimes won't compile.

openwrt.org

linksys e8450 price 150 dollars
Search results - OpenWrt Forum: https://forum.openwrt.org/search?q=e8450 order:latest

Techdata: Linksys E8450

Techdata: Linksys E8450 The development branch can contain experimental code that is under active development and should not be used for production environments. Snapshot images may support additional hardware; however, it is experimental, considered unstable, and sometimes won't compile.

openwrt.org

package Irqbalance

[OpenWrt Wiki] Irqbalance

openwrt.org

OpenWrt + 802.11ax supported

[OpenWrt Wiki] Table of Hardware: Ideal for OpenWrt + Wifi6 (802.11ax) supported

openwrt.org

 

[oscarmvl]

Thanks @Trip for the detailed answer. Simplified management sounds very attractive to me, so I guess I will follow your advice on Firewalla + APs, and will use same-brand switches (for simplicity).
I'm much more confident on this solution, so thanks again for taking the time to explain the details , I expect to contribute more once I have fiddled around with these devices.

 

[oscarmvl]

give these routers a chance:

How complex would this be to setup compared to the Firewalla? I would probably just use it as the router and not use the WiFi since this would be stored in the comms box with the ISP modem, as I want to minimize the chances of roaming not working properly between APs.

 

[shark2]

Takes 5-10 minutes to flash OpenWrt through browser using the vendor's web interface and installing the packages like sqm, upnp, adblock, dns encryption like https-dns-proxy, watchcat, etc.

read

Linksys E8450 (aka. Belkin RT3200)

Linksys E8450 (aka. Belkin RT3200) This Linksys E8450 is a dual-band IEEE 802.11ac/ax router based on MediaTek MT7622BV and MediaTek MT7915E. It has five Gigabit Ethernet ports, one USB 2.0 port, 128MiB SPI-NAND Flash (2k+64) and 512MB DDR3 RAM. [Linksys E8450]

openwrt.org

The only thing you have to install through an SSH terminal is luci the web ui openwrt, because that router is still in snapshot, but developers say those routers are fully supported.

how to install luci

[OpenWrt Wiki] LuCI essentials

openwrt.org

dns encryption

[OpenWrt Wiki] DNS (Domain Name System)

openwrt.org

 

[oscarmvl]

Takes 5-10 minutes to flash OpenWrt through browser using the vendor's web interface and installing the packages like sqm, upnp, adblock, dns encryption like https-dns-proxy, watchcat, etc.

read

Linksys E8450 (aka. Belkin RT3200)

Linksys E8450 (aka. Belkin RT3200) This Linksys E8450 is a dual-band IEEE 802.11ac/ax router based on MediaTek MT7622BV and MediaTek MT7915E. It has five Gigabit Ethernet ports, one USB 2.0 port, 128MiB SPI-NAND Flash (2k+64) and 512MB DDR3 RAM. [Linksys E8450]

openwrt.org

The only thing you have to install through an SSH terminal is luci the web ui openwrt, because that router is still in snapshot, but developers say those routers are fully supported.

how to install luci

[OpenWrt Wiki] LuCI essentials

openwrt.org

dns encryption

[OpenWrt Wiki] DNS (Domain Name System)

openwrt.org

Thanks for the details! I will read about this over the weekend to better understand if this is a better alternative for my scenario.

 

[Tech9]

My only concern with Firewalla is the young age of the company. They were crowd funded tech startup not long ago. The product looks very good, bit not as popular as pfSense, OPNSense, Untangle, Sophos. I don't know how good Firewalla support is. Their community forum has about 1000 posts.

 

[HTBruceM]

One thing about your home construction - concrete walls/floors. That means you will have more extreme signal loss through those walls/floors than a typical wood frame home. So you will probably require more APs than other folks with more traditional wood framing. Line of sight is going to be your best friend, so plan your AP placement carefully. In your case, more APs at lower power is going to be better than fewer APs running at higher power.
Roaming should still work, as long as you have some amount of signal overlap between zones. If your signal degrades excessively then you could have more/bigger dead zones unless you've got enough APs placed appropriately.
If you plan to pre-wire the AP locations with CAT6 during the construction phase, then you won't have an opportunity to do a WiFi site survey. Placement is going to be critical for you.

Does anyone know of WiFi planning software/tools that he could use ahead of construction to predict his optimal AP placement? Something that has the ability to program the floor/wall signal degradation?

 

[oscarmvl]

My only concern with Firewalla is the young age of the company. They were crowd funded tech startup not long ago. The product looks very good, bit not as popular as pfSense, OPNSense, Untangle, Sophos. I don't know how good Firewalla support is. Their community forum has about 1000 posts.

@Tech9 I'm not immediately buying, I guess I can wait until last moment to see how the support has been for the Firewalla, I went deep into the rabbit hole of custom/open-source routers and it seems too complex to manage for my current knowledge and time available. Being able to turn SQM with a single switch in an iOS app is too much of a temptation for me , but I still appreciate the recommendation. I will keep an eye out for Aruba Instant On and TP Link Omada to see if they release anything else.

One thing about your home construction - concrete walls/floors. That means you will have more extreme signal loss through those walls/floors than a typical wood frame home. So you will probably require more APs than other folks with more traditional wood framing. Line of sight is going to be your best friend, so plan your AP placement carefully. In your case, more APs at lower power is going to be better than fewer APs running at higher power.
Roaming should still work, as long as you have some amount of signal overlap between zones. If your signal degrades excessively then you could have more/bigger dead zones unless you've got enough APs placed appropriately.
If you plan to pre-wire the AP locations with CAT6 during the construction phase, then you won't have an opportunity to do a WiFi site survey. Placement is going to be critical for you.

Does anyone know of WiFi planning software/tools that he could use ahead of construction to predict his optimal AP placement? Something that has the ability to program the floor/wall signal degradation?

@HTBruceM thanks for the advice, I will check the electric blueprints to look for dead spots, there's at least 1 that I can think of right now.
And If there was such kind of software that would be ideal, I will search some kind of heatmap estimator.

 

[oscarmvl]

It’s been a long time but I wanted to provide an update in case anyone is looking for a similar setup (I have a symmetric 200 Mbps fiber connection).

I ended up buying a UniFi Dream Router that I’m using on the first floor, and a U6-LR access point for the second floor (installed in the ceiling about 4 meters high).

WiFi signal is great around the house (concrete walls), although I’m using the both 5 and 2.4GHz networks with the same name and band steering, so my guess is that when there are several walls in between it probably is switching to the 2.4 GHz band. It takes between 2-4 seconds to switch from the UDR to the U6-LR when I go upstairs with no hiccups in the connection. I have not had any issues with the internet so far.